Mage Slayer plus huge CWM devil = win?

[Idea Man]

You are playing an 18th lvl caster (your preference), and an overly large (advanced, huge) horned devil suddenly teleported into the middle of your party, 10 feet from you. You immediately know you cannot cast defensively. It wins initiative and power attacks with its unholy spiked chain, striking everyone and dealing over 60 points of damage. What do you do?

The battleground is a low-domed room, 80'x80', 20' high, with simple tables, restraints, and ritual impliments along the walls. You do not have foresight. You do not have persistent spell. Assume any spell of less than hours per level has not yet been cast. You do not have any gear over 70,000 gp in value. Your allies (same level) are another spellcaster, a meat shield, and a barbarian with a two-handed sword, as well as a 16th lvl cleric (meat shield's cohort).

EDIT: Also, the devil's chain targeted your caster for a stun effect first round, and you were stunned. How would you hope your allies acted for the one round you were stunned (neither they or you knew how long it would be)?

Is this fight unwinnable? Is this fight survivable? Consider it a challenge to the forum at large, because my party didn't make it. It did, however, make for a great excuse to switch out characters.

In my defense, they were up against a master summoner, in his own lair, had already raided it once before, refused to make a deal, and knew exactly what they were capable of. For the rematch, I plan to a) make use of the bodies/people left behind, and b) give them a BBEG henchman traitor.

[Nebo_]

My last wizard had Abrupt Jaunt, so it isn't too much of a stretch to assume that. That gets you out of its threatened area so you're free to cast the usual spells. Otherwise, a quickened Dimension Door is always handy.

[Rachel Lorelei]

Mage Slayer doesn't stop you from casting swift/immediate-action spells. Or from tumbling out of the Mage Slayer's range. Or from having your allies use up its AoOs.

[zerombr]

the Crusader (meat shield) uses the incredibly simple, yet still useful Douse the Flames maneuver, hits the great beast, causing him to be unable to make AoO for the round. then you do what you do. I'm no mage, I dunno how to beat it

or
the meat shield makes a ten foot step, provoking, and hoping that he doesn't have Combat Reflexes.

or
There's always bluffing/diplomacy

what about
using that sleight of hand trick to cast spells on the down-low? would that work?

[Emperor Tippy]

Cindy here 1 hit's it with an Empowered,Maximized, Energy Substituted, Piercing Cold, Fell Draining, Invisible, Twinned, Energy Admixed, Orb of Fire - 2x (180 + 15d6 Cold Damage + 1 Negative Level, no save, Fort Save or Dazed for 1 round).

Advanced to 24 HD and without its con increasing it only has 264 HP.

The Horned Devil now dies.

And thats 1 4th level spell. And it can be quickened as a 5th level spell.

---
I have another build that can deal 20 negative levels to 20 creatures with a quickened spell in a 4th level slot. And it repeats for free on my standard action.

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So yes, even with all the stupid, asinine conditions you placed on the fight it is easily winnable for an 18th level wizard.

[13_CBS]

Gasp! A use for a blast spell!

Quick! Take cover! The sky is falling!

( )

[Voyager_I]

Relax, it's Conjuration.

You didn't really think there was a good blast spell in Evocation, did you?

[Idea Man]

@Nebo: So abrupt jaunt is a swift action? Hadn't noticed that spell. You get one shot, then he walks over and kills you.

@Rachel Lorelei: Ahh, and here I thought I knew all I needed to know. The swift spell is certainly a way out. Thank you! But a caster with tumble? A bard, arcane trickster, or somesuch, maybe.

@zerombr: Sadly, my meat shield wasn't a crusader. Good idea, there. This beast had combat reflexes, but the only way to know is to try, right? If you try and diplomance something that is actively trying to kill you in one action and succeed, I will hate you.

@Emperor Tippy: Cindy's bad ass, I'll give you, and now that I'm savvy on swift spells, I see the functionality, but this devil has more than 264 HP, and has a high fort save (DC 25?). Second shot provokes. How do you get -1 level adjustment? All the things I've seen to reduce LA specify minimum 1 or 0.

[Karsh]

Arcane Thesis. Cindy's cool like that. Also, the wizard should be faulted for not having Greater Blink up.

Cindy deals 360 + 30d6 (average 53 damage) with her Uber Orb of Doom, so the horned devil had better have over 400 HP, and since the damage part of her spell doesn't allow a save, provided she can hit his dinky touch AC, he's toast.

[Rachel Lorelei]

@Nebo: So abrupt jaunt is a swift action? Hadn't noticed that spell. You get one shot, then he walks over and kills you.

Abrupt Jaunt is an *immediate* action. It's a PHB II substitution feature, not a spell.
An 18th level caster only really -needs- one shot (such as doubly Arcane Reached Irresistible Dance). She can throw buffs (like, say, both Greater Blink and Greater Mirror Image) and battlefield control spells up if that one shot is a Time Stop.
Finally, extended 10-min-per-level spells should also be up.
Oh, and Anticipate Teleport should've bought the party a round to prepare (including for the caster to get the heck away from wherever the teleporting person is arriving, lay down a Fog there, &etc).

@Rachel Lorelei: Ahh, and here I thought I knew all I needed to know. The swift spell is certainly a way out. Thank you! But a caster with tumble? A bard, arcane trickster, or somesuch, maybe.

Any caster can have Tumble. It takes 2 SP to put 1 rank in it, then between dex (+4, let's say?) and a MW Tool (50 gp), you have +7. That means you have a 60% chance of success. Cross-class it a little more, and voila. Tumble is very useful for spellcasters, because AoOs Are Bad.

[zerombr]

@zerombr: Sadly, my meat shield wasn't a crusader. Good idea, there. This beast had combat reflexes, but the only way to know is to try, right? If you try and diplomance something that is actively trying to kill you in one action and succeed, I will hate you.



really that comes down to bribery of some sort, situational but sometimes is the big life saver

[Idea Man]

@Karsh: Where may I look up arcane thesis, so I may be illuminated? Is it in the Incantrix? Yes, the wizard should be faulted for not having many spells up, but that was the case this time.

As for the Uber Orb of Doom, if I were planning this thing to fight Cindy, it would A: be a demon (immune cold), and B: have maxed HP. As I recall, my poor devil was only capable of 500 or so HP. However, Cindy would kick its butt. Thank you for clarifying the proof of victory.

@Rachel Lorelei: Ahh, yes yes yes. Now I remember abrupt jaunt! Sorry for the 'duh!' moment. As for most spells, SR is a problem, though not a guarantee. I believe my devil had a SR of 34, so not inconcequential. Worth the risk! Again, in this example, the wizard did not have anticipate teleport, nor any of the mid-term buffs, cast. Poor, perhaps lazy, planning.

Masterwork tool? Um, like what? (you name it, I'll accept it) Anyway, while true, any can could take tumble, and it is a worthwhile investment, it really only starts to pay off at higher levels. At lower levels, a failed check results in an AoO, which is particularly painful to such a low HP class, so it's almost better to stand your ground. Yes, it works here, but, sadly again, my wizard chose to have absurdly high knowledge skills instead.

@zerombr: When the best item you have is your prize 70,000 gp item (in this case, my wizard would rather die, but that's just him), and you know this bad boy has already been bought off in his original calling spell, you're relying heavily on your diplomacy! Just sayin'.

[Nebo_]

@Nebo: So abrupt jaunt is a swift action? Hadn't noticed that spell. You get one shot, then he walks over and kills you.

Immediate, actually. And it's not a spell, it's a spell like ability. Nice of you to ignore the Quickened Dimension Door. Let's say that after I get out of its range, I cast Solid Fog on it. Now I'd like to see it walk over and kill me.

[Rachel Lorelei]

@Rachel Lorelei: Ahh, yes yes yes. Now I remember abrupt jaunt! Sorry for the 'duh!' moment. As for most spells, SR is a problem, though not a guarantee. I believe my devil had a SR of 34, so not inconcequential. Worth the risk! Again, in this example, the wizard did not have anticipate teleport, nor any of the mid-term buffs, cast. Poor, perhaps lazy, planning.

Assay Resistance deals with SR rather handily (and is a siwft action to cast).
A high-level wizard with access to the Complete Arcane or Spell Compendium and without Anticipate Teleport is a high-level wizard who deserves to have an evil outsider teleport in on them without warning.

Masterwork tool? Um, like what? (you name it, I'll accept it) Anyway, while true, any can could take tumble, and it is a worthwhile investment, it really only starts to pay off at higher levels. At lower levels, a failed check results in an AoO, which is particularly painful to such a low HP class, so it's almost better to stand your ground. Yes, it works here, but, sadly again, my wizard chose to have absurdly high knowledge skills instead.

Plenty of skills don't pay off until a little later. And at low levels, a wizard who's in melee range is a dead wizard, so he might be better off risking the AoO. Like I said, even 2 Skill Points in the skill (1 rank) would give a wizard a 60%+ chance of success. You wouldn't even need to max the skill out to succeed automatically.

A suitable Masterwork Tool for the Tumble skill would be a padded outfit underneath the wizard's robe/mithral twilight chainmail/etc, especially on the joints.

[Rachel Lorelei]

Immediate, actually. And it's not a spell, it's a spell like ability. Nice of you to ignore the Quickened Dimension Door. Let's say that after I get out of its range, I cast Solid Fog on it. Now I'd like to see it walk over and kill me.

It can teleport, so Solid Fog isn't that big a deal. And it can teleport to get you in its threatened area, to boot.
Oh, and you can't act after casting Dimension Door.

(See, this is why Anticipate Teleport is good.)

[Hallavast]

Immediate, actually. And it's not a spell, it's a spell like ability. Nice of you to ignore the Quickened Dimension Door. Let's say that after I get out of its range, I cast Solid Fog on it. Now I'd like to see it walk over and kill me.

Could be wrong, but doesn't casting Dimension Door preclude you from taking other actions afterwards in the same round?

[Nebo_]

It can teleport, so Solid Fog isn't that big a deal. And it can teleport to get you in its threatened area, to boot.
Oh, and you can't act after casting Dimension Door.

(See, this is why Anticipate Teleport is good.)

Solid fog makes it waste an action to get out. An action it would normally use to attack you.

I know you can't act after casting dimension door, but escaping is the priority in the first round.

[Idea Man]

@Rachel Lorelei: Thank you for beating me to the solid fog point.

Yes, assay spell resistance would do nicely. The devil can cast magic circle against good. Now, in my example, I hadn't specified that it had (and, in all honesty, I hadn't), but in an ideal world, where I do my homework before the meeting, it would have. Otto's irresistable dance would have to be substituted for something else.

Quite right about dimension door, Hallavast.

@Nebo: I prefer to think of it as solid fogging the rest of the party.


Now, I know I forgot to mention this, and I'll modify my original post, but the devil's chain targeted your caster for a stun effect first round. Can you make a DC 36 Fort save? (not being a jerk here, this happened) How would you hope your allies acted for the one round you were stunned (neither they or you knew how long it would be)?

[Karsh]

@Karsh: Where may I look up arcane thesis, so I may be illuminated? Is it in the Incantrix? Yes, the wizard should be faulted for not having many spells up, but that was the case this time.

As for the Uber Orb of Doom, if I were planning this thing to fight Cindy, it would A: be a demon (immune cold), and B: have maxed HP. As I recall, my poor devil was only capable of 500 or so HP. However, Cindy would kick its butt. Thank you for clarifying the proof of victory.

Arcane Thesis is in Complete Arcane. You pick one spell and all metamagic effects applied to that one spell are reduced by 1, meaning that metamagic that doesn't change the level actually applies a -1 total modifier to the spell's effective level. It's good on its own. When you combine it with Incantatrix and Easy Metamagic feats, it gets downright disgusting.

The fun thing about Cindy's Uber Orbs of Doom is that since they're Piercing Cold, they still deal half damage to things with Cold Immunity. So even Mr. Demonpants wouldn't last much longer than the devil. (Also, as an aside, Demons are immune to Electricity, not Cold. Most only have Resistance to Cold, and Piercing Cold entirely bypasses that. You're thinking of Angels.)



Ultimately, the Wizard's biggest mistake was not having Greater Anticipate Teleportation cast. That would've bought the party plenty of time to prepare for the devil.

Re: Stunning Attack: Foresight should've allowed the wizard to get a Celerity off to Time Stop and run traffic control. Sounds like this wizard didn't take many precautions against being ambushed for walking straight into what was obviously a trap.

[Rachel Lorelei]

@Rachel Lorelei: Thank you for beating me to the solid fog point.

Yes, assay spell resistance would do nicely. The devil can cast magic circle against good. Now, in my example, I hadn't specified that it had (and, in all honesty, I hadn't), but in an ideal world, where I do my homework before the meeting, it would have. Otto's irresistable dance would have to be substituted for something else.

You're overestimating Magic Circle against Good. It only protects against effects that "grant the caster ongoing control", like Dominate Person/Monster. Irresistible Dance is a single command, not ongoing control. Arcane Reached Irresistible Dance works against a Magic-Circle-against-Good having opponent, just as it does against 90% of everything else.

Now, I know I forgot to mention this, and I'll modify my original post, but the devil's chain targeted your caster for a stun effect first round. Can you make a DC 36 Fort save? (not being a jerk here, this happened) How would you hope your allies acted for the one round you were stunned (neither they or you knew how long it would be)?

Even as a core-only caster I can make a DC 36 Fort save by expending my Moment of Prescience (I'd know I should do so because I could identify the enemy with a Knowledge check, and learn its Special Attacks), although given that it doesn't seem to be a core-only game, I wouldn't need to, because I'm immune to stunning thanks to having cast Elemental Body at the start of the day (to give myself Perfect flight via the [Air] version, plus some immunities, to go with Flight of the Dragon's 100-foot fly speed).
If I weren't using Elemental Body, I might be using a rod-extended Veil of Undeath, which makes you immune to well-nigh every condition in the book.

To sum up, an optimized but cheeseless wizard would have depressingly little trouble with this encounter, having multiple layers of defenses that would keep him untrapped.
-Anticipate Teleport means that the devil can't teleport in and threaten the wizard as soon as he appears. The wizard moves away from where the square the devil teleports into, plus throws out a buff or two or a control spell.
-Even if Anticipate Teleport wasn't running, the wizard can either be immune to the stunning, or expend Moment of Prescience (Diviner goodness!) to make the save vs. stun.
-Even though the demon has Mage Slayer, the wizard can use a swift- or immediate-action spell (lesser quicken rod?) to take himself out of its threatened area; Abrupt Jaunt also works. He also has the option of tumbling out of the threatened area (60% chance with just one rank!), putting up a defense (such as Greater Mirror Image) to make the AoO hitting unlikely, or both.

And then, once he's out, he can take the demon out in a single round. Even if he doesn't, he can contribute heavily to the encounter as usual.

I should note that this would be a realistic version of the kind of "try to hit the caster's weaknesses" encounters Giacomo talks about, what with the 30-foot-reach Mage Slayer, the enemy surprising the party, an enclosed space, and so on.

Meanwhile, since I expect the devil to have Improved Trip or Stand Still or both to go with its huge size, the melee characters would have a whole lot of trouble--especially since they're likely *not* immune to stunning, and will be making DC 36 Fort saves half the time at best.

[Cuddly]

What's Cindy's to hit with ranged touch attacks? The char sheet says it's only +11. Burn a quickened true strike to hit with one of the orbs?

[Emperor Tippy]

@Emperor Tippy: Cindy's bad ass, I'll give you, and now that I'm savvy on swift spells, I see the functionality, but this devil has more than 264 HP, and has a high fort save (DC 25?). Second shot provokes. How do you get -1 level adjustment? All the things I've seen to reduce LA specify minimum 1 or 0.

As Karsh has already taken care of most of this (Cindy was built by him BTW).

Here's my character for the same game.

I went the Enveneration route: Quickened, Invisible, Maximized, Chained, Empowered, Twinned, Split, Black Lore of Moiled, Fell Draining, Ray Extended, Enervation's to be more precise.

One fourth level spell that deals 20 negative levels to 20 targets and repeats on my standard action. So anything with 40 HD or less can be killed in 1 round. I auto make the CL check to bypass SR.

Now as for why your situation is bad. Any competent wizard will have Greater Anticipate Teleport up. They will also have an extended foresight up. Either 1 of those removes surprise and allows Greater Celerity meaning that said wizard acts first.

You should have an Extended Shapechange up as well (if your playing with it) and have Shadesteel Golem as your default form.. And Greater Blinking.


But so far I have presented 2 characters who will win while meeting all of your conditions.

As for the Stun thing, I would not have failed the check. If I could even be stunned.

[Cuddly]

Oh god, two Incantatrix 10s in the party. Jesus, that must be brutal to watch.

[edit]
Giving the monster some ways around commonly abused caster tactics (stat damage, drain, orb damage) would be good. It doesn't really stand to reason why anything over CR13 shouldn't have a way of dealing with enervate, as it's such a good, common spell.

[Amiria]

From what source are the rules for feat conversion that Emperor Tippy and Karsh use for their characters ?

[Emperor Tippy]

From what source are the rules for feat conversion that Emperor Tippy and Karsh use for their characters ?

Fiendish Codex 1. It has two spells: Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos. Embrace allows you to turn any of your feats into an Abyssal feat. Shun allows you to turn any Abyssal feat you possess into any other feat you qualify for at the time you cast Shun the Dark Chaos.

Elves get 4 martial weapon proficiencies for free as racial bonus feats. And if you don't intend to scribe scrolls you can trade that for a 5th.


The real fun starts when you reach epic though. All of those easy metamagic feats would be turned into Instant Metamagic or other epic feats. Embrace/Shun is the one thing that makes Fighter//Wizard a really good gestalt. You turn level 21 and all the sudden you have 11 more epic feats. Even pre epic its another metamagic feat every other level.

[lord_khaine]

hasnt Arcane thesis recently been changet? can you still make that Orb of Doom?

anyway even a non-optimised wizard should have been able to tumble out of there by level 18.

and in the extreme case where you dont learn tumble, then you should have used your rod of quickening to fire off either a quickend teleport to get out of its reach, or used one of your quickend defensive spells like invisibility or mirror image to move out of its reach before you then Nuke it.

[ZeroNumerous]

My wizard? No, I won't even use a wizard to beat it.

My measly little ECL 18 sorcerer grapples the **** out of that horned devil and proceeds to knock it out with measly little 1d3 nonlethal damage.

And just to clarify, my dry lich sorcerer laughs at being stunned.

[its_all_ogre]

unless there are two arcane thesis feats it is actually in phb2
+ 2 levels for casting the thesis spell and reduces metamagic costs by 1

so a fireball cast at level 6 would do 8d6 and you could add any +1 metamagic feat for free.
one of the few feats that benefits damaging spells. after all haste/slow(used for example cause are also 3rd level and you can first get this feat at 5/6?) only gain 2 extra rounds of use.
although a haste cast will still generally do more damage than even the above boosted fireball obviously.

[Roderick_BR]

And here, kids, is why casters are considered overpowered. There's nothing a wizard able to cast 9th level spells can't do. By level 18, he should be able to deal with sudden teleporting creatures, and creatures trying to attack him by surprise (the only thing that can get a caster between levels 5-10).

[Karsh]

hasnt Arcane thesis recently been changet? can you still make that Orb of Doom?

It was errataed to not reduce the spell's final level below that of the initial spell (so no Uber Orbs of Death minus Fell Draining in a level 3 slot), but RAW it still reduces metamagic adjustments below 0.

@its_all_ogre

You are correct. Arcane Thesis is from PHB II, not CArc. My mistake.