Is this betrayal?

[Thrawn183]

Preface: my group generally frowns upon backstabbing and the like, its only happened once before.

Now, we finally hit level 17 which means my cleric can cast True Res. The party paladin runs around with a spell up that, when he dies, will damage nearby evil creatures and heal (maybe only allies) good creatures. The party soulknife (CN) has expressed that in a dire emergency (ie. the paladin being almost dead), he would strike the final blow against the paladin to heal himself and hopefully finish off a foe. Considering how easy resurrecting dead comrades has become, would this be a huge concern?

This has only been mentioned OOC, outside of the presence of the player of the paladin. It is conceivable that there is some bitterness due to the paladins (yes, 2 of them) in the party using onewingedangel's rebalanced palain, but I think this is something that the soulknife would actually do IC. Heck, my cleric runs around with Death Pact and Death Throes up and is willing to coup de grace himself if the situation calls for it.

[kamikasei]

Yes, it's betrayal. You could talk to the paladin about it, and possibly make an agreed strategy out of it for emergencies, but I doubt it'll fly.

Bear in mind that True Res is bloody expensive. This is not a sustainable tactic.

[its_all_ogre]

well apart from imo appalling RP (coup de grace yourself WTF )
not betrayal particularly.
however we are all different and i know that my opinion differs to certain friends of mine as to what is a betrayal and what isn't.

[Raider]

Anything is fine if the entire party agrees to it

[streakster]

I'd say it's not, provided you resurrect him and pay all of the cost for it.

Just my opinion, though.

[BRC]

Well, I would call it betrayal, However, depending on how the paladin is being played, they may allow it if they give the signal. Paladins tend not to have any problem with dying to support the greater good.

[Thinker]

well apart from imo appalling RP (coup de grace yourself WTF )

Yeah, why would someone sacrifice himself for the greater good?

After all, the needs of the few outweighs the needs of the many.

[Ellisande]

This has only been mentioned OOC, outside of the presence of the player of the paladin...

This, to me, is the key. It's not a spur-of-the-moment burst of inspiration, it's being planned behind the back of the paladin's player, and involves, literally, stabbing the other player's character in the back.

Until the paladin's player gives assent, I don't see how this is meaningfully different than any other attack on another player's character. I think it's likely that the paladin's player would agree to it, yes, but until he does, I think you need to frown on this as seriously as you would on any other "backstabbing and the like". No matter how IC it is for the soulknife.

[Indon]

As a DM, if the Soulknife kills the Paladin to save himself, I'd rule that he takes the damage as if he was evil (and may remain evil depending on his recent actions).

If the Soulknife kills the Paladin for a more selfless reason, I might let him get away with it. Doesn't mean the Paladin's going to like it, but as DM I'd allow it.

[SoD]

I'd say yes and no. Depending on the situation. Talk it over with the paladin first, and get his permission. However, I also beleive it fits in the CN alignment perfectly.

[Behold_the_Void]

The major question here is if the Paladin is aware of this plan or not. If he isn't or does not consent, then yes. If he is and consents, then no.

Really this is something that needs to be discussed with the Paladin's player. Because just doing that to someone's character without provocation is generally a pretty low thing to do when you could have just as easily TOLD them about it.

[Rachel Lorelei]

Actually, I think you'll find that this is Sparta.

[Guildorn Tanaleth]

It's not betrayal if the paladin knows of the possibility of it happening and approves of it. Otherwise, don't do it.

[bugsysservant]

well apart from imo appalling RP (coup de grace yourself WTF )

Yeah, because no one has ever killed themselves to kill others for a cause they believe in...

[Crimson Avenger]

I had to snigger.

It's betrayal if the paladin doesn't know ahead of time

And the Soulknife can't benefit from the healing blast because of alignment. It only heals good creatures in the blast, and only damages evil creature. But, damn, that +4 Sacred bonus to Charisma is nice.

In fact, our sorcerer took Extra Spell just to get this one.

[its_all_ogre]

where is the sacrifice?
he's getting res'd! there is no sacrifice for the greater good.

had a loooong conversation with a mate who stated that his character with 100 hps was going to jump off a 100' cliff just because he knew he'd survive and it'd look awesome.
i pointed out that it'd still hurt and in reality people have jumped 40' without dying. go and do that and then i'll find this more believable. he refused.
same thing here.
paladin is NOT sacrificing himself for the greater good at all.
he is going through excruciating pain and agony (that'll be the dying btw if you're not getting this yet) just to get a spell off.

i'm just not seeing this as RP. i'm seeing this as a strategic decision on the side of the players, not the characters decision.
claiming it is RP is BS.

[Thrawn183]

I and the player of the soulknife had been joking about it, among other things related to metagaming and roleplaying, but I have refrained from making a call one way or the other to this point.

It's highly ironic because we had been joking about his battle cry being "for the greater good." Then the next session we had a free-for-all arena match where most of us had agreed to work together against a gem dragon before turning on eachother and the soulknife, being the only character who spoke draconic, tried to make a deal with the dragon. So he actually tried to get me while shouting "for the greater good." I have to say, it was pretty priceless.

Well, I'll have to come to a decision sometime within the next 24 hrs. because that's when everything comes to a head. We'll be taking on an encounter the player of the paladin created for the DM (to make her life easier, creating high level npc's is no easy task) that will almost certainly be tough enough to put us in the described situation. The only other problem is the player of the paladin does the whole mounted combat schtick and rolls attacks for himself and his mount at the same time and.... doesn't always use the same dice for the character and the mount... yielding a surprising number of crits and successful hits while smiting. *throws hands up in the air* This is gonna be one heck of ride.

[Narmoth]

it's not the soulknifes desicion to take.

[its_all_ogre]

sorry are you stating that the paladin player cheats?
cause if thats the case you have far worse problems than maybe killing each other...imo