Bye-bye world problems!

[Admiral Squish]

Okay, my artificer came up with this. A magical amulet. Cheap, easy to produce. I haven't done the math yet, it can produce enough food for one person, cast endure elements, and cast mage armor, all once/day.

Now, this guy is making these to basically solve all the problems of the world. Food, shelter, and protection are free. He's making them by the dozen, and handing them out in villages and towns, making sure everyone gets one.

The question is, what kind of things is this guy stirring up? What are the long-range consequences of such a thing?

[AKA_Bait]

Okay, my artificer came up with this. A magical amulet. Cheap, easy to produce. I haven't done the math yet, but three times per day, it can produce enough food for a one person sizable meal, once a day it can also cast tiny hut, and it grants the wearer mage armor as an always-active power.

How, exactly, is something like that cheap? Or are you just disregarding the item creation guidelines.

Now, this guy is making these to basically solve all the problems of the world. Food, shelter, and protection are free. He's making them by the dozen, and handing them out in villages and towns, making sure everyone gets one.

The question is, what kind of things is this guy stirring up? What are the long-range consequences of such a thing?

Some consequences

1. Aristocrats and political leaders in non-democratic societies will want him dead, dead, dead, dead. Because

2. Social order will start to collapse. Staple crops (corn, wheat, etc) will be worthless. Millions will be unemployed but still have the means to eat and have shelter. Why would any commoner go back to laboring in the fields if they had one of these?

[Saph]

People with weapons can take these amulets away from the recipients as easily as they can take away anything else. So you'll still get famines, deaths from exposure, etc; it's just that the causes will be political (just like in the real world).

In better-ordered countries, the main consequence would be to take away the necessity to work. Economies would reorient to be more about entertainment than survival, which would have various long-term effects.

By the rules, though, this item shouldn't be cheap, so I'm not sure how the artificer's doing it.

- Saph

[Admiral Squish]

How, exactly, is something like that cheap? Or are you just disregarding the item creation guidelines.

Well, it's not especially cheap, but it's relatively cheap, for what it gives. Also, change tiny hut for endure elements.

[Admiral Squish]

People with weapons can take these amulets away from the recipients as easily as they can take away anything else. So you'll still get famines, deaths from exposure, etc; it's just that the causes will be political (just like in the real world).

In better-ordered countries, the main consequence would be to take away the necessity to work. Economies would reorient to be more about entertainment than survival, which would have various long-term effects.

By the rules, though, this item shouldn't be cheap, so I'm not sure how the artificer's doing it.

- Saph

Well, instead of slaughtering malnourished 10AC commoners, they're facing down well-fed 14AC commoners who really want to keep their amulets.

[Telonius]

Always-Active "Mage Armor" is the exact functional equivalent of Bracers of Armor +4. Their list price is 16,000 gp. He's going to bankrupt himself if he puts that on the gizmo.

If you remove that, it looks like the item would be ...
{(Spell level 3 * CL 5 * 25) + [(Spell level 3 * CL 5 * 25)*1.5 for multiple abilities)]} / (5/1charge per day) = 187.5gp for the item.

Socially, this would have a lot of effects. Agriculture would grind to a halt. Staple foods would no longer be produced, though luxury foods would still have their place. Sieges would no longer be an effective battle technique, ever.

One thing would stay the same: the dirt poor would still be dirt poor. They just wouldn't be starving.

[Reel On, Love]

Well, instead of slaughtering malnourished 10AC commoners, they're facing down well-fed 14AC commoners who really want to keep their amulets.

Unless the commoners are Brits with longbows (impossible in D&D due to longbow cost), they're just as buggered.

Plus, hell, conscription just means you've got the commoners hacking at each other.

Always-Active "Mage Armor" is the exact functional equivalent of Bracers of Armor +4. Their list price is 16,000 gp. He's going to bankrupt himself if he puts that on the gizmo.

No, the always-active mage armor uses the continuous-spell-in-item rules, which for Mage Armor is 1 for spell level * 1 for caster level * 2000 for continuous * 1 for the duration constant.
What you describe would be more sensible way of handling it, but then, the custom item rules are all kinds of wacky.

[Admiral Squish]

Always-Active "Mage Armor" is the exact functional equivalent of Bracers of Armor +4. Their list price is 16,000 gp. He's going to bankrupt himself if he puts that on the gizmo.

If you remove that, it looks like the item would be ...
{(Spell level 3 * CL 5 * 25) + [(Spell level 3 * CL 5 * 25)*1.5 for multiple abilities)]} / (5/1charge per day) = 187.5gp for the item.

Good advice. How much would 1/day mage armor cost? I think CL 1 should do fine for duration. It's meant to stop the whole 'eaten by a housecat' thing.

One thing would stay the same: the dirt poor would still be dirt poor. They just wouldn't be starving.

Well, why do the poor need money? To have shelter, food, and protection. You could fall asleep in a field mid-blizzard with endure elements, you can feed yourself and your family for free, and with mage armor, you can, somewhat, protect yourself from the wandering beasts. Only greedy people would work, because they want things.

[Reel On, Love]

Well, why do the poor need money?

Allow not nature more than nature needs,
Man's life is cheap as beast's.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Well, why do the poor need money? To have shelter, food, and protection. You could fall asleep in a field mid-blizzard with endure elements, you can feed yourself and your family for free, and with mage armor, you can, somewhat, protect yourself from the wandering beasts. Only greedy people would work, because they want things.

Congratulations, you just created Communism. And that's as much as we can say on the topic.

[Telonius]

Unless the commoners are Brits with longbows (impossible in D&D due to longbow cost), they're just as buggered.

Plus, hell, conscription just means you've got the commoners hacking at each other.


No, the always-active mage armor uses the continuous-spell-in-item rules, which for Mage Armor is 1 for spell level * 1 for caster level * 2000 for continuous * 1 for the duration constant.
What you describe would be more sensible way of handling it, but then, the custom item rules are all kinds of wacky.

This falls into the same category as the mythical Widget of Continuous True Strike. You should be using the "Armor Enhancement" section of the table, not the "Spell effect" and "Special" sections. The Armor Enhancement section lists the formula as (bonus squared) * 1000. For a +4 bonus, that's (4*4) * 1000, which equals ... 16,000, which happens to be the exact price of Bracers of Armor.

[sikyon]

Congratulations, you just created Communism. And that's as much as we can say on the topic.

Communism indeed, and one that would actually work.

Congrats.

[Admiral Squish]

Communism indeed, and one that would actually work.

Congrats.

Yay me! I win!

[valadil]

Whomever sells food and shelter would be pretty pissed at the character. I wouldn't necessarily say that every farmer or governor (they effectively sell shelter in town for taxes) is going after the players, but there would have to be some corrupt ones out there who take exception.

People who don't get the amulets initially would get upset too. Unless you have a scheme for distributing these things evenly and simultaneously, that dwarf tribe that was last on the list due to logistic reasons is going to think you're snubbing them because you hate dwarves.

And even if these things get distributed properly, there's going to be some bully somewhere who takes or threatens to take amulets. If people get too dependent on magical food, they'll starve. As a sidenote, there could be old folks who don't want to rely on amulets for food and are against these devil toys.

These won't all necessarily happen. They're just ideas since the GM should throw down some opposition instead of letting a PC make the world perfect.

I could see a retired PC doing something like this. Keep 1k gold to live off of, which is plenty for most people, and put the rest into solving world hunger. Seems reasonable, if any PC were to retire.

[Frosty]

Implications would include a sky-rocketing population. Much like how the industrial revolution and modern farming advances caused a huge population boom in the 20th century, having unlimited food supplies like this will also create a huge, if not endless, population increase.

However, Land and living space is still limited, so the poor will be well-fed, but completely land-less. Land-ownership and raw materials will be more precious than ever since everybody want them, and now there are a LOT more people wanting them. The service industry *could* grow to meet demand, *if* all the peasants have something of worth to give in return. What will all these peasants do now that they don't need to farm?

Either become soldiers and conquer more lands for the kingdom, or enter the manufacturing sector. The huge amount of workers will increase production, but the amount of raw materials remain the same, so prospecting and exploration of new lands for more resources would become important, and some of these peasants may become adventurers.

Either the kingdom will institute some sortof population control measure (a la China) or there will be inevitable conflict between it and other kingdoms and the kingdom tries to expand for more land and more natural resources.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Communism indeed, and one that would actually work.

Congrats.

Not really, but by board rules we can't get into it, so lets just talk about how it will affect the GAME world.

Yes, ignoring the possibility of someone stealing the items, you are still looking at nobles who are used to having stuff, and will pay for the stuff. People will make the stuff because they want stuff, too. Think about it, are you happier with or without your computer. The focus of the economy would change, but economics remains the same. However, a noble who enslaves his people once they refuse to work for him wouldn't be uncommon, either.

[BRC]

Congratulations, you just created Communism. And that's as much as we can say on the topic.

Expect the value of luxary items to skyrocket, since people no longer need the bare neccesities, they will spend money on luxuries. What your amulet essentally does is provide somebody the equivilant of, for no work, a sturdy hut and some bland food. The bare neccesities in short, However, people will want more than the bare neccesities, though they no longer NEED food, the stuff made by Create Food is rather bland, and so those who can afford it will still want somthing better for themselves.
However, all the peasants already living off bland food and in plain huts will be better off, and so will start moving up the social ladder in some way, trying to make money, which will be tough because you just eliminated the need for basic agriculture. There will still be some so the middle and upper classes can get better food than the amulet provides, but not anywhere nearly as much as before.

So you have abunch of people with nothing to do, at first everybody will be happy, then the peasents will get bored and jelous, and there will be a uprising, it will likely be bloody, and in the end not much will change. Though the peasents now have mage armor 1/day, so do all the soliders working for the nobility, and the peasents will be unlikely to attract a large enough following to actually do anything, as they can no longer claim that the nobility is, for example, taxing them too hard to feed themselves, as the amulets now feed them for free.

[Reel On, Love]

This falls into the same category as the mythical Widget of Continuous True Strike. You should be using the "Armor Enhancement" section of the table, not the "Spell effect" and "Special" sections. The Armor Enhancement section lists the formula as (bonus squared) * 1000. For a +4 bonus, that's (4*4) * 1000, which equals ... 16,000, which happens to be the exact price of Bracers of Armor.

No, I shouldn't. If I were making an item that grants a +4 enhancement bonus to armor, I'd use the "armor enhancement" bonus. The "continuous mage armor" item is similar to a "+4 enhancement bonus to armor" item, but it is a little different. For example, the Mage Armor effect shows up to Greater Arcane Sight, and a vanilla +4 enh-to-armor item would stack with physical armor (making it +4) and wouldn't apply vs. incorporeal creatures. Bracers of Armor are actually different from either of those, since they don't stack with physical armor, but don't technically apply vs. incorporeal creatures, either.

It's a spell effect. The default is the "spell effect" guideline. If you're changing the price, you might as well pick a more reasonable one than the 16,000 gp you're getting, anyway (compare it with the +1 Glamered Twilight Mithral chain shirt, which can look like clothing, has no ACP or spell failure, and gives +5 armor rather than +4, all for 7,700 gp). Bracers of Armor are overpriced.


For the record, Continuous True Strike is a crappy item... because True Strike applies to one attack, regardless of the spell's duration.

Use-Activated True Strike, now we're talkin', but Use-Activated is yet another example of how the item creation rules are teh borked.

[Spiryt]

Communism indeed, and one that would actually work.

Congrats.

Well, if my semester of sociology gave my anything, I can say that it would never work.

People would want more. It's the way people are.

EDIT: and I think that Blood(d)y Commie ninjed me.

[Reel On, Love]

Expect the value of luxary items to skyrocket, since people no longer need the bare neccesities,

Look for the bare necessities
The simple bare necessities
Forget about your worries and your strife
I mean the bare necessities
Old Mother Nature's recipes
That bring the bare necessities of life!

[mikeejimbo]

The Men In Black would steal his plans and erase his memory.

[AKA_Bait]

Expect the value of luxary items to skyrocket, since people no longer need the bare neccesities, they will spend money on luxuries. What your amulet essentally does is provide somebody the equivilant of, for no work, a sturdy hut and some bland food. The bare neccesities in short, However, people will want more than the bare neccesities, though they no longer NEED food, the stuff made by Create Food is rather bland, and so those who can afford it will still want somthing better for themselves.

It occurs to me that this would totally be negated if Prestidigitaion were also in there to spice up the food...

So you have abunch of people with nothing to do, at first everybody will be happy, then the peasents will get bored and jelous, and there will be a uprising, it will likely be bloody, and in the end not much will change. Though the peasents now have mage armor 1/day, so do all the soliders working for the nobility,

Yes but the soldiers will be proportionally less well defended, since they probably had armor already. Of course... they will still have better weapons etc.

[Frosty]

It's all about supply and demand. As long as there is something people want, and is in limited quantities, there will be the distinction between poor and rich. So now, the poor are still the same..except they're not hungry anymore.

[Solo]

Look for the bare necessities
The simple bare necessities
Forget about your worries and your strife
I mean the bare necessities
Old Mother Nature's recipes
That bring the bare necessities of life!

textextext

[Reel On, Love]

[img=http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/6035/caution049te2.gif]

textextext

[BRC]

It's all about supply and demand. As long as there is something people want, and is in limited quantities, there will be the distinction between poor and rich. So now, the poor are still the same..except they're not hungry anymore.

except they now have nothing to do, usually they could work hard in order to advance their social status (or try anyway, it usually didn't work), but as this is a pre-industrialized society, the vast majority of the peasents work in agriculture, about 90% of which no longer has any demand for it's supply. Other jobs will be very limited, leaving unemployed masses sitting around, leaving violence as the easiest way for them to improve thier social status.
And proportionally, the soliders will be just as better defended as the peasants, they will have these amulets too, on top of thier better amor and training.

[Zincorium]

I've actually got a problem with similar effects but different causes with one of my homebrew projects.

All the members of a particular nation of humans go through a ritual to turn them into quasi-undead after going to magically accelerated childbearing (at slightly above replacement levels). Afterwards, they can only be killed through violence or severe mishaps. They also have a race of magically altered humans ('orcs') serving them and taking care of resource gathering and manual labor.

The way I've worked it out is that all of them are trained in the basics of magic so as to be able to contribute at least something, and then organized into guilds run by the oldest and most conservative members. They then spend most of their time scheming and backstabbing the other guilds, thus keeping the emperor and his plans free from mischief.

[Solo]

What

What you say, what you say?


ps. It's working now.

[Reel On, Love]

What you say, what you say?


ps. It's working now.

[AKA_Bait]

And proportionally, the soliders will be just as better defended as the peasants, they will have these amulets too, on top of thier better amor and training.

Erm... Mage Armor doesn't stack with regular armor. So, no, they will not be as proportionally well defended.