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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Tarrasque killing without wish?

    If you Plane Shifted a Tarrasque to the Elemental Plane of Water, regeneration doesn't cover damage taken from drowning. Wouldn't it just die from drowning?
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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rift_Wolf View Post
    If you Plane Shifted a Tarrasque to the Elemental Plane of Water, regeneration doesn't cover damage taken from drowning. Wouldn't it just die from drowning?
    He probably are immune to planeshift. The sad thing is, you can't tear him apart to the atomic level and call it a day...

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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    It would be as good as dead, but would probably come back to life if someone planeshifted it back again.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    Death from suffocation bypasses regeneration-so even if you planeshift Big T back, it is still dead.

    However, an easier way to kill it is to Teleport it to the depth of the ocean. The deeper point of sea on Earth is roughly 11 kilometers. That's more than 35.000 feet. Assuming Toril (or any campaigh setting) has an oceanic Abyss just as deep, big T is in trouble.

    Someone teleported to the depths of the ocean at that point would be in danger of suffocation but also will take pressure damage. 350d6 damage per minute to be exact. Sure, fortitude saves can stave off both pressure damage and suffocation but by the time anyone swims a mile or so, dozens of rounds would have passed. In addition, the depths totally lack light so noone can see and it is very easy to get lost.


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    Surgebinder in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    Death from suffocation may bypass most forms of regeneration, but it does not bypass the Tarrasque's regen. There are no exceptions whatsoever to the rule that "The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead." That statement is unequivocal, has no exceptions for anything but Wish and Miracle, and takes precedence over any other rules by being more specific.

    Drowning would, however, qualify as an effect that would normally cause instant death and deals 868 nonlethal damage instead. So, once Big T finally can't hold his breath any more, you would be able to finish him off with a Wish or Miracle without any extra damage dealing first.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    Ah the memories. My first exposure to the Tarrasque was a secondhand story of something that happened in-game while I wasn't there.

    DM: You see a Tarrasque.

    Necrocleric: *Confidently on the brink of flippancy* Kill it.

    rest of the Party: ........

    Bard: Do you even know what a Tarrasque is?

    Necrocleric: *shakes head then speaks in the same manner* Kill it.

    Bard: *has monster manual* Here's a picture

    Necrocleric: Run away! *moves his arms up and down so as to simulate running*

    ...at least it wasn't a gazebo
    Last edited by Thoughtbot360; 2008-02-14 at 10:59 AM.
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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    The Tarrasque's regeneration is much better than normal regeneration:

    Regeneration (Ex):
    No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque. The tarrasque regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect. If the tarrasque fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creatureís full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hp). The tarrasque is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golemís cursed wound ability.

    The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.
    So yes, you could drown him, but you'd still need wish or miracle to legitimately kill him (and you'd need to do it while he's "drowned").

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    Last edited by Dr Bwaa; 2008-02-14 at 11:08 AM.
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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    The suffocating would just keep it pretty much dead, not exactly dead.


    Would it starving to death kill it though?

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen View Post
    The suffocating would just keep it pretty much dead, not exactly dead.
    So it's only mostly dead. Better hope it doesn't find true love.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zim View Post
    So it's only mostly dead. Better hope it doesn't find true love.
    But he truly loves death and destruction. And people. Especially with pepper.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen View Post
    Would it starving to death kill it though?
    No.

    The bit about it only being killed via wish or miracle is a more specific rule than any of the rules that normally allow you to overcome defenses similar to those of the Tarrasque. As it is a more specific rule, it automatically trumps the general rules.
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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    Regeneration (Ex)
    No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque. The tarrasque regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect. If the tarrasque fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creatureís full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hp). The tarrasque is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golemís cursed wound ability.
    The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.
    Actually, no. No form of attack deals lethal damage to the Tarrasque and the tarrasque takes maximum nonlethal damage instead when it fails its save against an instantly lethal effect. Effects that neither deal damage nor have a saving throw are not affected by its regeneration.

    The Tarrasque dies normally in the following circumstances:

    a) It is subject to a lethal effect with no saving throw that doesn't deal damage. Such effects don't have death converted to nonlethal damage. Suffocation kills it. While there is a fortitude save to keep one's breath, there is no save to escape actual suffocation after you run out of breath-so the clause "if it fails a save vs death..." doesn't apply.

    b) It is subject to lethal ability drain. This includes poisons that deal constitution drain, any blood-drinker's constitution drain (such as a vampire's) or a shadow's strength drain.

    c) It is subject to effects that remove a being's regeneration such as Greymantle and Ebon Ray. Note that unlike the above effects, effects that deal unhealable damage instead (instead of specifically removing regeneration) do not work because the Tarrasque is immune to unhealable damage.

    d) It is subject to effects that remove, destroy or devour its soul such as Trap the Soul, a Demiliche's Soultrap and Souleater. So, you could whack a tarrasque to unconsciousness then summon or call a Devourer or other soul-eating thingy to eat it-or you could cast Trap the Soul on a diamond, put the diamond in a cow and have Big T swallow the cow.

    e) It is subject to effects that utterly destroy a target without killing it. Such effects include the Unname and Necrotic Termination spells, any temporal paradox that results in the Tarrasque never being born (or similar) and Epic Spells that remove it from time.

    f) It is subject to transmutations that alter its form. As an Extraordinary ability, Regeneration is removed during those transformations. If the Tarrasque dies while it doesn't have its regeneration, it dies normally. So, flesh to stone, vitrify, baleful polymorph, polymorph any object and the like can be used to kill it. Disintegrate would fall into this category-but because it is a Ray, it is deflected by the Tarrasque's carapace.


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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    Points A and B do nothing about the explicit clause that the Tarrasque can only be killed by raising its nonlethal damage and using wish or miracle. That is an additional clause beyond the effects of regular damage and death effects. (Also of note: Strength drain or damage is not lethal. It is merely paralytic. The only kind of ability damage or drain that is lethal is Constitution.)

    Points F and C are actually viable, as they do away with the ability that provides this clause.

    Point E: If it effect doesn't kill it, how can you say it dies? "Point D" seems to pretty well fall into this category for the most part as well, I think.
    Last edited by Shhalahr Windrider; 2008-02-14 at 12:49 PM.
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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    Actually, no. No form of attack deals lethal damage to the Tarrasque and the tarrasque takes maximum nonlethal damage instead when it fails its save against an instantly lethal effect. Effects that neither deal damage nor have a saving throw are not affected by its regeneration.
    The problem is the paragraph you left out:
    The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.
    That covers anything that would 'slay' the terraqsue. However, I would tend to agree with (e) -- if it is affected by something whose description implies that it is a "step beyond death" (e.g. a sphere of annihilation) which doesn't mention killing or slaying specifically, I think that that would bypass all of the terrasque's defenses. It is debatable whether you have actually 'slain' it at that point, but it doesn't exist anymore so the point is mostly moot.

    For example, reading the sphere's description:
    Any matter that comes in contact with a sphere is instantly sucked into the void, gone, and utterly destroyed. Only the direct intervention of a deity can restore an annihilated character.
    It doesn't mention death, and it does specifically prevent anything that touches the sphere from being restored by anything short of a deity (which would override the Terrasque's wording on needing 'a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead', since the word 'keep' implies that it can die from things other than wish or miracle, but promptly comes back -- something a Sphere of Annihilation strictly prevents without deity-level intervention. Since the Terrasque is not a deity, it cannot regenerate back from being annihilated on its own.)

    If you want to be strict about it, a Sphere of Annihilation doesn't make the terrasque "permanently" dead; its regeneration ability is just 'temporarily' negated until a deity intervenes and lets it operate. But from a practical standpoint, a terrasque that touches a sphere is just as much destroyed as everyone else.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    Shrink Item and making it permanent after repeated successful permanent Baleful Polymorphs (losing regeneration and other abilities) and killing the subsequent animal form depending on how that mechanic would work in your game and tossing it in a lead lined iron chest (divinations) and dropping deep into the ocean leaving it a problem for the future heroes.
    Last edited by CASTLEMIKE; 2008-02-15 at 12:42 AM.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    Quote Originally Posted by CASTLEMIKE View Post
    Shrink Item and making it permanent after repeated successful permanent Baleful Polymorphs (losing regeneration and other abilities) and killing the subsequent animal form depending on how that mechanic would work in your game and tossing it in a lead lined iron chest (divinations) and dropping deep into the ocean leaving it a problem for the future heroes.
    Sounds like a quest hook.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    I think the best way to deal with Mr. T is to either drop a really big rock on him from really high up, or burn luck rerolls for wild empathy.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    The Tarrasque can 'only' be killed by wish.

    It's just bad design on WoTC's part. Making something like that, sucks all the interesting out of an encounter.
    Last edited by Woland; 2008-02-15 at 12:58 AM.
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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    The tarrasque's regeneration will never recover from taking an infinite amount of damage. Therefore, with suitable cheese, such as an infinite-damage-punch crusader, the tarrasque should be effectively defeated permanently, even if he isn't technically dead.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    The tarrasque's regeneration will never recover from taking an infinite amount of damage. Therefore, with suitable cheese, such as an infinite-damage-punch crusader, the tarrasque should be effectively defeated permanently, even if he isn't technically dead.
    Of course, without using wish or miracle there is the chance that it will somehow becomes released again in a future generation. That, and there is no such thing as infinite damage, just arbitrarily large.
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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOOB View Post
    That, and there is no such thing as infinite damage, just arbitrarily large.
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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    My take on it is... Immune. Immune to drowning, Immune to plane shift, Immune to disintregration, Immune to death by massive damage, Immune to death effects, Immune to being trapped in a pit, Immune to mindcontrol, Immune to attempts to tame him, Immune to whatever.

    Infact if you DO manage to kill him (wish included), he is Immune to that too and basically respawns 6 months later.

    My idea on this is that some things should be unkillable even by a Wizard level 12 (excepting the Wish naturally).

    He can still be included in games, but the mission should be less "kill the beast, collect the reward but more of minimising the damage he does (evacuation, distracting him with a herd of cattle to uncivilized areas).


    Maybe I am coming on too hard here, but isn't the T the vengeful tool of a vengeful god somehow ? Feels kinda unclimatic to have 3-5 PC bounce in and zap him dead then bounce back to town for afternoon tea.
    Last edited by Khanderas; 2008-02-15 at 02:30 AM.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woland View Post
    The Tarrasque can 'only' be killed by wish.

    It's just bad design on WoTC's part. Making something like that, sucks all the interesting out of an encounter.
    WoTC fails on many levels, but having one monster that needs something more then 3-5 midlevel "special" people to whack at it with swords is not one of them.
    Sure, perhaps they should have said they needed a spell of 8th level that only exist in one copy deep in the dungeon of Dhepazheck, but then the PCs use Wish to emulate that anyway, while complaining that it is such a McGruffin.

    I don't quite understand how needing a wish once it is 'dead' makes the encounter unintresting. I find it to be the other way around.
    Too often a monster face a finger of death and either dies or gets another one. Repeat until dead. Legendary creatures reduced to bags of loot and xp.
    Fine in a videogame, but using pen-and-paper your DM can give you anything for nothing if he wishes. No challenge, no point, no fun.
    Last edited by Khanderas; 2008-02-15 at 02:35 AM.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    I must disagree with you Khanderas.

    I have had a GM throw the tarrasque at us once.
    The situation went something like this:
    *encounter starts,
    "Oh, what the hell. This thing isn't dying. Try something else."
    *about 30 minutes later after trying various random things, getting torn apart because of it, someone finally realizes its a tarrasque (most of us had only skimmed through the monster manual then)*

    "It's a tarrasque. It can only be ultimately killed by wish. Anybody have wish or miracle?"
    *chatter of 'nope'*
    "Well.. uh... so... this village is screwed. What a waste of time. Wanna do something else?"
    *chatter of 'definitely'*


    We all decided it would be more efficient for us just to let it eat for its couple weeks fill than the time it would take for us to try to get a scroll of wish to defeat the creature. The sorcerer definitely didn't have wish (and would never think about taking it, wish is a pretty crappy spell.) and our cleric was dead.

    A tarrasque that can only be killed by wish or miracle is an uninteresting, boring, encounter. Since the tarrasque is just big and hard to kill. It doesn't do anything neat, or exciting. Just doesn't die.
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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    I can see your point SweetRain. My view of this is from another direction. The way I see it, Mr T is not ment to be slain for XP. Plenty of monsters to do that. Mr T is the monster for PC's and DM's to have the option of having to do something else then... kill it.

    Perhaps your DM wanted for you to save the village by evacuation / distraction or maybe not. Perhaps he wanted you to kill (or atleast fight) something epic, I don't know.

    If it was the former someone (King or his general or some other authority) should have let the PC's know the mission was not to kill it, since it cannot be done without Wish. If it was the latter then Wish should be on the table somehow, either by PC's being a caster or a scroll (possibly provided by a kingdoms court Wizard).


    Obviously I cannot, and should not, tell people how to play. I just feel that it is woefully easy to take the path of killing the thing (whever the thing is) and move on. Should be atleast a change of pace to have MrT devour an uninhabited forest then a couple of towns.
    ... I want... No I need something that is bigger and badder then the PC's. I know that places me in the minority in theese forums (if the posts about the mass killing of Forgotten Realms in preparation of 4th edition is any indication), but its something I gotta live with.
    Last edited by Khanderas; 2008-02-15 at 03:07 AM.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    tool of a vengeful god is just an old wives tale.

    why does everybody want to kill the being from an undiscovered plane of existance, huh? IT'S JUST A BABY!!! it cant find it's momma and is going through a bad case of separation anxiety and has anyone ever cared enough to try to help the poor lil' fella get home? NO! you're all selfish is what i say. you bunch of big meany pants-es.

    now play nice with it or when it's parents (roughly 6-7 times the size and power) find it, they're gonna come after you adventurers. bullies.
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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    I agree that needing a specific spell to permanently kill it is kinda boring.
    The tarrasque was designed to be the iconic level 20 BBeG. A rampant force of nature that awakes some time and the heroes need to hold back.
    A better way to deal with it would make the regeneration, after it's taken bellow 0, take a longer time to work. So, if the heroes put him down to the -800, they have a few days to find a special ritual or something to seal it away before it rises again. It *will* get back. The players need to find a way to banish, seal, whatever. The idea of the monster being unkilable by itself is an interesting idea, but the mechanic rules are uninteresting.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    If you Plane Shifted a Tarrasque to the Elemental Plane of Water, regeneration doesn't cover damage taken from drowning. Wouldn't it just die from drowning?
    The tarrasque's regeneration will never recover from taking an infinite amount of damage. Therefore, with suitable cheese, such as an infinite-damage-punch crusader, the tarrasque should be effectively defeated permanently, even if he isn't technically dead.
    Bolded for my convinience, because that's basically the crux of the argument.

    It is perfectly easy to DEFEAT a Tarrasque without using the Wish spell. Plane Shift it to somewhere that does infinitely reoccuring damage, trap it at the bottom of the ocean, teleport it into the middle or a mountain, or have Pun-Pun use "I Win" and dump the remains in a barrel of acid to counteract it's regeneration.

    Because killing it automatically results in a defeat, but defeating it is not necessarily the same as killing it. And in D&D you probably get the same experience for defeating an enemy as you do for killing it. The detail is up to your GM, and as a GM I wouldn't argue with someone who'd gone to the trouble of setting up an elaborate trap involving a big hole into the Abyss to basically achieve their objective.

    Heck, in a way it's BETTER to drop him into another plain because he won't be "dead" but he'll never, ever, EVER bother anyone ever again. Wins all 'round.

    Besides, the people who live on top of the Tarrasque's 'nest' are obviously morons, because it doesn't occur to them to go live somewhere else. You could technically just Teleport it 100 miles away and tell them it's dead, they won't know the difference. Quest complete!
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    Default Re: Tarrasque killing without wish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    or have Pun-Pun use "I Win" and dump the remains in a barrel of acid to counteract it's regeneration.
    Eh... pun-pun can get wish as a spell-like ability via solar, efreet, or similar.
    So, pun-pun can kill it.
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