Skill houserule: how badly will it break things?

[raygungothic]

Unlike many people, I really don't mind most aspects of D&D3.5's skill system all that much. However, I do think it's too heavy handed when it comes to enforcing difference between classes.

As a result, I've been toying with the idea of just removing the "buy at half rate" aspect from non-class skills. One point would buy one rank, full stop. Non-class-skills would still have a lower maximum.

I hope the effect would be to make it easier for players to diversify a bit without it being such a sacrifice to do so. I fear that it would cause unforeseen** balance problems, mess with PrC entrance difficulties, and give too much advantage to a single-level dip in classes with large skill lists or all-skills (Factotum, Ardent Dilettante*). Any suggestions on how to deal with this last one without making the calculation of skill maxima complicated?

Comments would be greatly appreciated!

*(How great is AD? )

**I'm a pretty laid-back, rules-loose DM, and my players are relaxed RPers rather than power-crazed maximisers, so I'm not afraid of balance problems we can see coming. It's the ones that sneak up that cause problems.

[leperkhaun]

It helps, my group has used this rule often (max ranks still 1/2 of normal ranks). Unless you have someone intentionally trying to abuse it, it normally works well and allows a character to deversify.

[Akennedy]

Sounds good enough for me! I mean, my group plays that skill lists stack. In other words, if I were playing a fighter, then take a level in rogue, then back in fighter, i can still take rogue list skills, but i still only get 2+ skills when I'm leveling in fighter.

[Krrth]

It's very similar to the one we use (think we got it from conan d20)...class skills are enforced as normal, but any skill points from int bonus can be spent on a one for one basis. It's work well for us.

[Kurald Galain]

Sounds good enough for me! I mean, my group plays that skill lists stack. In other words, if I were playing a fighter, then take a level in rogue, then back in fighter, i can still take rogue list skills, but i still only get 2+ skills when I'm leveling in fighter.

That's actually RAW if a skill is class skill for any of your classes, it remains maxed at [total level] + 3, not half that.

I think such rules as discussed in this thread work well for anything but UMD.

[Riffington]

If you are worried, here's a compromise:
1. Skill points cost 1 per cross-class rank.
2. You can only buy up to your cross-class skill max if your current class doesn't have it as a class skill.

That means if I'm Rogue 1 taking Fighter 1, I can use a couple skill points on Spellcraft, but I can't buy up my previously-maxed Move Silently this level.

I wouldn't worry about it too terribly much either way.

[Burley]

Your way is the only way I've ever known. The "half rank per skill point" thing is ridiculous, just all around ridiculous. If your group is a bunch of minmax communazifacists, however, it's a really good way to keep them in check, along with imposing a "no one-level dips unless you can back it up in-game and at the table without soundling like a greedy jerk" rule. But, your players, as you said, seem laid back enough that they'd only use the skills that there characters would logically make use of.
(I've seen Rogues put ranks in Concentration and Spell craft at first level along with a bunch of other stuff, just so they could multi-class into Wizard at second and have a bunch of skillmonkiness. That'd be the time to keep the "half rank per skill point" thing.)

[valadil]

The only place I can see this breaking anything is in qualifying for prestige classes. If a PrC has heavy skill prereqs you may have to impose a minimum level limit too. Or something.

My group does something similar, but not quite the same. They say once a class skill, always a class skill. Makes multiclassing easier. It works retroactively too. So if you roll up a rogue 2/fighter 4 for some odd reason, you'd get 5(8+int) + 4(2+int) rogue fighter skill points, rather than 5(8+int) rogue skill points and then 4(2+int) rogue fighter skill points.

[Person_Man]

It's really not a balnce issue. It's a niche protection issue. If everyone has every Skill in-class, then there's no reason that Skill Monkeys are special. There would be nothing they can do "best" that other classes can't do.

Having said that, you might want to adapt the Star Wars Saga Edition Skill rules (which they're using in 4th ed). I think it accomplishes what you want quite elegantly.

[kamikasei]

That's actually RAW if a skill is class skill for any of your classes, it remains maxed at [total level] + 3, not half that.

Ah, but if it's not a class skill for the level you're using to put points into it, you still have to buy up to that maximum at a 2-for-1 cost.

What the OP describes is basically giving everyone the Able Learner feat for free. (I think that's the one...) And it seems fair enough. I know I find the idea of having to spend just as much for half the result to be annoying if I want to buy for diversity or flavour.

[Telonius]

The only thing I could foresee this affecting would be people taking one-level dip in Rogue and Factotum more often. Maybe earlier entry for some PrCs.

[MorkaisChosen]

Skillmonkies still have an advantage- more skill points and higher maxima. The cross-class skills still have a max of 1/2 the class-skill max, so a Rogue will still be a better trap-disabler (if he maxes it) than a Fighter.

[raygungothic]

Thanks for the comments, guys.

Riffington - your solution solves my problem, thank you, I shall use it. It keeps the skillmonkey special!

(Person-Man - I don't think the niche protection is a problem, as long as skill maxima are different in- and cross-class?)

Burley Warlock - they tend to dip on the basis of "I've been wandering around in the woods a lot, maybe I should have some Ranger?" rather than "X will make me t3h ub3rz". When I tweak classes it tends to be to help their builds not be too suboptimal, rather than to stop them breaking stuff! So not such a worry there, but a purely-for-character dip could still cause problems down the line.

Kurald - Use Magic Device, thank you for bringing that to my attention. I'm generally pretty careful with magic items anyway, but widespread UMD could definitely cause oddities. As for the maxes, that RAW rule on the max was what was making me worry about dips - but I was under the impression Akennedy was suggesting that "once 1:1, always 1:1" which is not my understanding of RAW...

Thanks guys!

[its_all_ogre]

i use this personally anyway.
it works well, means that fighters and others can have ranks in spot/listen without paying double.
actually found less people utilised it than anticipated, until i pointed out to the casters and ranger that tumble was really *really* good for them.

UMD is actually only really useful if you invest heavily in it anyway, so if it is cross-class they will not get much out of it imo.

[ShinyRocks]

The way I always thought I would do this would be to let the PCs select an extra couple of skills and make them class, so long as it fits their character. A couple of really basic examples would be: a fighter whose father was a cartographer having Knowledge (Geography) as a class skill; a wizard whose parents who were circus acrobats having Tumble as a class skill.

I think it would add flesh to the bones of the character - of course any rogue will know how to pick a pocket, but if your rogue spent their life in the temple district, filching from collection plates, why shouldn't they have Knowledge (Religion)?

[Starsinger]

I removed the silly concept of class and cross class skills. My group has never abused it.

[Miles Invictus]

It's really not a balance issue. It's a niche protection issue. If everyone has every Skill in-class, then there's no reason that Skill Monkeys are special. There would be nothing they can do "best" that other classes can't do.

I disagree. Skill monkeys are skill monkeys because they have lots of class skills, and lots of skill points. That is, they are the best at being able to max out multiple skills. Being able to say "Yeah, I can do that."

If everything is a class skill, you get fighters who can spot and UMD, and rogues who can spot and UMD and hide and disable traps and diplomatize and learn languages and quote scripture and tell you that you just stepped in poison ivy. Skill monkeys are still pretty awesome, but other classes can step outside of their niche just a hair.

[Squash Monster]

For most skills, having half as high of a maximum possible rank is enough to shut you out from being that great at it, so it really isn't much of a balance problem. for qualifying for prestige classes, you still need the same skills, its just that the cross-class ones you get don't hurt nearly so much.

The only thing I would watch out for is Use Magic Device. In an optimized party under your house rule, every character would have at least one rank in it, so they can use wands out of combat.

Overall though, it's a pretty good rule. I like it.

[Jack Zander]

For most skills, having half as high of a maximum possible rank is enough to shut you out from being that great at it, so it really isn't much of a balance problem. for qualifying for prestige classes, you still need the same skills, its just that the cross-class ones you get don't hurt nearly so much.

The only thing I would watch out for is Use Magic Device. In an optimized party under your house rule, every character would have at least one rank in it, so they can use wands out of combat.

Overall though, it's a pretty good rule. I like it.

In a truly optimized party, everyone (who has a minimum of 10 Cha) should already have 1 rank in UMD just to use wands out of battle. 2 skill points doesn't hurt anyone for the great benefit that gives.

[Triaxx]

I've always gone the opposite direction, which is typically fighter friendly, by declaring that anything you take Skill Focus for is a class skill. So if my fighter takes Skill Focus (Tumble) he's got the bonus and it's a class skill.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

In a truly optimized party, everyone (who has a minimum of 10 Cha) should already have 1 rank in UMD just to use wands out of battle. 2 skill points doesn't hurt anyone for the great benefit that gives.

Given that UMD actually has a special effect on a natural 1, Having only 1 rank might not be all that useful. It'll require more rolls to make that successful roll, increasing the chance that that natural 1 comes up and you can't use the wand for another 24 hours. It is in your best interests to minimize the number of times you have to retry, even if only using it out of combat.