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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default The Discus [Weapon]

    Ok I just thought of this one, not completely sure about it so please suggest whatever you think or if you like it.

    The Discus

    Exotic-One handed

    {table=head]Name|
    Cost
    |
    Dmg (S)
    |
    Dmg (M)
    |
    Critical
    |
    Range Increment
    |
    Weight
    |
    Type


    Discus|20 gp|
    1d3
    |
    1d4
    |
    18-20/x2
    |
    40 ft.
    |
    2 lb
    |
    Slashing
    [/table]

    The Discus: The discus is a round, quite flat ring, made of metal or stone, with sharp edges and a cross-like grip in the middle. The medium version of it is about 6.5 inches in diameter. The discus has a metal or wooden cross-grip. To be used, the disc is continuously spun using the cross-grip to slash the opponent. A discus may also have pairs of spikes fitted onto it for an extra 2 gp each, in which case the discus deals damage as a discus one above its size.

    Concept Image (Axel)

    There is also a feat that can be taken to make the discus have the returning property:

    Returning Discus [General]

    Requirements: Proficiency with the Discus, BAB +1

    Benefit: When you throw a Discus, you may treat it as if it had the returning property. Immediately before the beginning of your next turn, it returns to your hand and you may catch it as a free action, provided you have a hand free and you are in the same square from which you threw it. This is an extraordinary ability.

    Normal: When you throw a Discus, it doesn't return to you.

    Special: A Fighter may select Returning Discus as one of his bonus feats.
    Last edited by Ethrael; 2008-03-06 at 04:54 PM.
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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    I'd suggest making the damage the same throughout, no matter which attack you choose. But I like it. I never thought of using a discus close up though. Good concept.

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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    Yeh you're right. Now I don't remember the reason for putting bludgeoning as less.
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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    Mmmmm.... I don't think that a weapon like this would really work. If I have understanded its functioning correctly, you can't give the sharp edges of the discus enough spin to make it cut something. Its momentun would be too low, due to the small arc you can create spinning your finger. Sure, it would do some scratches against a soft undefended skin, but against an armor....

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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    I understand your thinking, but the idea is that it's very sharp, possibly more than a sword in some cases and also that when used properly and after being taught how to use, you can spin also very fast, it is true that it might be hard to pierce armour, but isn't it always? Plus, it doesn't have to be only the momentum generated by the hand, it could also involve the whole body spinning round whilst spinning the discus and during the body's spin the user slashes the opponent.

    Also, I don't think I explained this well enough, the finger holes aren't tiny little holes, they could be quite big and it would be easy to constantly keep it moving by switching holes between fingers.

    Btw do you think a picture or rough sketch would help?
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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrael View Post

    Btw do you think a picture or rough sketch would help?
    Yes. I thought that this is just some slashing knuckle-duster, which would made some sense. But now I don't really know.

    Alternatively, you can just carefully describe how it exactly works.

    Also, why it gives better defense against arrows?
    Last edited by Spiryt; 2008-02-17 at 07:22 AM.
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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    Ok, I've done the best Microsoft Word allows me to:

    Concept Image of Discus

    And in answer to your question, You get a deflection bonus to arrows because with a discus it is possible to deflect them whilst spinning the discus and using it as a shield.
    Last edited by Ethrael; 2008-02-17 at 08:40 AM.
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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    You did it in world? I would fail miserably.

    So, basically, you put your finger in those holes, hold and attack enemy with edge?

    If so, sorry, but this weapon make no sanse whatsoever.

    It has no reach, no power ( no levereage, upon the other things, as Caracol pointed out). The very grip is unsteady and dangerous.

    Surely, you could do some damage to unarmored human with it, but...

    Imagine yourself - you are fighting with such thing with human with lets say longaxe. Let's leave all obvious aspects of such unfair fight, let's just say, that one good blow from high or low would break your fingers or even whole hand.

    Just imagine yourself - all moves with it will be extremaly cumbersome, and your hand is exposed to attack.

    And I really can't say how it do any good against arrows.

    Firstly, if you are fast enough to see that arrow flies towards you - you just step aside. Or if you don't you swing your sword/axe/polearm around. Those weapons are quite long, so there is chance that they will hit arrow and deflect it.

    But this disc? Why it's good against arrows?
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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    Looks like a good way to get your fingers broken. There is a weapon that is similar to this, but it uses a haft instead of your arm. They call it an axe.
    Last edited by Nebo_; 2008-04-05 at 05:02 AM.

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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    Ok to recap: basically, you put the fingers in the holes and spin it by moving your fingers into different holes each time so that there is continual motion. You can throw the discus, I might not have made that clear enough, and with a sharp metal edge it can do a lot of damage, almost as much as a sword. It is true it's an easy way to get your fingers broken if you don't know how to to use it, but if you do and can use it well, it shouldn't be too easy to break your hand. You can hold it up in the case of a rain of arrows as a second shield, only instead of the arrows being embedded in it, they are deflected. Also, what good would a warrior be with a sword if he only went for the armour? He'd go for the joints of it and with a discus it's even easier because it's thinner and can get into the joints of the armour more easily. Plus it does have a small reach, not as much as other weapons but it has other uses because of this.

    You could use it as a knuckleduster as you originally thought, for a sturdier grip, but it wouldn't give the same amount of damage. I don't think it will be very cumbersome if you can use it properly, it could be quite elegant in fact. Think about it: with one simple sweep of your arm, you can do quite a lot of damage, and you can parry as well. It may be dangerous at your fingers are in the way, but what if you kept it moving so your enemy doesn't hit them? I'm not sure if you all picture it in an akward way or if i've not described it properly, but I believe it can be quite interesting and in fact very different to all weapons, including axes.
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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrael View Post
    Ok to recap: basically, you put the fingers in the holes and spin it by moving your fingers into different holes each time so that there is continual motion.

    Okay, I really don't enjoy being malicious, but this is an absurd, worth Monty Python.

    Do you really imagine someone spinning something on fingers in the middle of battle? When other people are killing themselves with dangerous objects?
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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrael View Post
    Ok to recap: basically, you put the fingers in the holes and spin it by moving your fingers into different holes each time so that there is continual motion. You can throw the discus, I might not have made that clear enough, and with a sharp metal edge it can do a lot of damage, almost as much as a sword. It is true it's an easy way to get your fingers broken if you don't know how to to use it, but if you do and can use it well, it shouldn't be too easy to break your hand. You can hold it up in the case of a rain of arrows as a second shield, only instead of the arrows being embedded in it, they are deflected.
    Do you actually have to change the position of the fingers every time? That would NEVER give the discus enough spin, plus is a difficult task, and honestly I would never even try to train in something like this to use a weapon. Also, much different that the other weapons, this one doesn't have an hilt to defendo yourself, and your fingers are exposed to hits and arrows too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrael View Post
    Also, what good would a warrior be with a sword if he only went for the armour? He'd go for the joints of it and with a discus it's even easier because it's thinner and can get into the joints of the armour more easily. Plus it does have a small reach, not as much as other weapons but it has other uses because of this.
    I can't pretend to be an expert about every armed fighting style out there, but I train in japanese fencing and I can guarantee that when you try to his someone, you should go for his vital points, armored or not, istead of going to the joints of the armor. Because you need to deliver deadly blows as soon as possible, and because every time you try to hit, you inevitably leave your defenses open to your opponent's counterattacks, and you'd better not waste you time in trying wounding him in unespected places leaving your defense open for him to just attacking your head.
    But I realize that DnD combats aren't like actual ones. This is just to pointing out that this weapon would be uneffective in real life. The rules of DnD could let it be effective anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrael View Post
    You could use it as a knuckleduster as you originally thought, for a sturdier grip, but it wouldn't give the same amount of damage. I don't think it will be very cumbersome if you can use it properly, it could be quite elegant in fact. Think about it: with one simple sweep of your arm, you can do quite a lot of damage, and you can parry as well. It may be dangerous at your fingers are in the way, but what if you kept it moving so your enemy doesn't hit them? I'm not sure if you all picture it in an akward way or if i've not described it properly, but I believe it can be quite interesting and in fact very different to all weapons, including axes.
    Actually, I think that using the knucleduster to make a firm grip instead of spinning, is actually the ONLY way to use a weapon like this. And spinning your fingers continuosly is more dangerous that don't move them: if you spin them in the way you say, your opponent just have to leave his blade on the discus and wait for your fingers to be cutted by themselves.

    Honestly, I don't like it. Is not realistic and does not give you a lot of possibilities. When you think about an exotic weapon, you need to make it different in the way it's used and in the new possibilities it can give you, of course. But the way it's used is too strange to work, too unrealistic to be considered effective, and with too few new possibilities to make this weapon appealing enough for someone to decide to train in it.
    Last edited by Caracol; 2008-02-17 at 10:09 AM.

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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    @ Spiryt: I think I can see what you're getting at, it doesn't seem like a weapon to be spinning it when others are doing strong cuts with their axes and swords and what not. Well i think of it simply as another way of getting momentum.

    The point is that it is a killing weapon, it's not just something for show. Ever seen Xena? You know her jagged ring which she throws? Imagine it like that, only it reaches to the middle and can also be held for melee combat.

    @Caracol: I understand that the spinning idea isn't getting on well. So don't think of it as simply moving your fingers around the holes. You know when you spin a quarterstaff? The finger movement is like that only instead of using the staff as the hold, you use the finger holes as a hold.

    It's difficult to try and explain the idea of a certain type of weapon, especially as it doesn't exist, but from what I hope I'm getting across, I believe it can be a very useful type of weapon, it's basically the edge of the sword continuing to do more damage every time it comes round so it's like the sword only you don't lose the momentum every time you finish a swing.

    Also, what you said about not only going for joints, I understand that because otherwise you wouldn't be able to do any real damage. But the thing is that the idea of it is flexible and you can do many things when you think them up. It's not just a sheet of round metal with holes in the middle. If you've ever held a discus, it's that with a sharp edge and finger holds in the middle. You can still bash someone with it, albeit it would hurt the fingers if you did it too hard, but I think it can be toyed with to come up with many different ways to use it.
    Last edited by Ethrael; 2008-02-17 at 10:37 AM.
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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    Quote Originally Posted by Caracol View Post


    I can't pretend to be an expert about every armed fighting style out there, but I train in japanese fencing and I can guarantee that when you try to his someone, you should go for his vital points, armored or not, istead of going to the joints of the armor. Because you need to deliver deadly blows as soon as possible, and because every time you try to hit, you inevitably leave your defenses open to your opponent's counterattacks, and you'd better not waste you time in trying wounding him in unespected places leaving your defense open for him to just attacking your head.
    But I realize that DnD combats aren't like actual ones. This is just to pointing out that this weapon would be uneffective in real life. The rules of DnD could let it be effective anyway.
    Well, with most slashing weapons (swords, sabers, knifes e.c.) going for the joints is the only way, cause you could beat plate armor guy with sword whole day and you won't do much, vital points or not, even if it's heavy thing like claymore.

    But the problem is that I can't imagine going for the joints with such thing. Seriously, I can't imagine doing anything with it..

    I just cut something like that from paper, and I want to point out that puting it in rotating motion is imposible in the firtst place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrael View Post
    [COLOR="DarkRed"]@ Spiryt: I think I can see what you're getting at, it doesn't seem like a weapon to be spinning it when others are doing strong cuts with their axes and swords and what not. Well i think of it simply as another way of getting momentum.

    The point is that it is a killing weapon, it's not just something for show. Ever seen Xena? You know her jagged ring which she throws? Imagine it like that, only it reaches to the middle and can also be held for melee combat.
    Please spare me. I thought we were talking about weapons, not about Xena. Xena may be fun, but Dragon Ball is probably more realistic.

    You won't get any monumentum out of it. Human fingers don't have enough strenght

    I understand that the spinning idea isn't getting on well. So don't think of it as simply moving your fingers around the holes. You know when you spin a quarterstaff? The finger movement is like that only instead of using the staff as the hold, you use the finger holes as a hold.
    And do you really think anyone could do this, trying to hit someone at the same time?

    continuing to do more damage every time it comes round
    So you think that anyone could be able to spin it faster and faster, anytime he spin it? It's against physic.

    The best thing one could do with it is not loose it for maybe 5 seconds.
    Last edited by Spiryt; 2008-02-17 at 11:09 AM.
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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    A weapon like the one you say exists its the chakram. But is a sharp ring with the outer edges intended to cutting, and with no grip (some chakras have leather strips along the ring to be gripped). Is intended, developed and used as a throwing weapon. It can be held, of course, as a melee weapon by the leather strips and used as an unusual dagger, of course, but not spinning it.
    Xena's chakram istead (I must warn you to use fictional characters, weapons and styles to make your point about using this weapon effectively), with that strange grip in the middle, would make a melee weapon, but an incredibly ankward and slow melee weapon. The movements of your wrists are not intended to spin fast enough, they convey not enough strenght and they are extremely slow compared to a regular dagger. I can be more effective in melee using a needle and trying to shove it into your eyes, istead. And, if even using a disc weapon spinning it with your wrist is useless and difficult, what about using YOUR FINGERS?
    Xena's chakram and your discus sure are cool to be seen, but thrust me, they can deal almost no damage and they are INCREDIBLY difficult tu use. A regulare chakram istead is good as a throwing weapon (really good) and not bad as a reserve melee weapon.

    EDIT: notice this just now.

    @Caracol: I understand that the spinning idea isn't getting on well. So don't think of it as simply moving your fingers around the holes. You know when you spin a quarterstaff? The finger movement is like that only instead of using the staff as the hold, you use the finger holes as a hold.
    Yes, I know it because I train in staff weapons too in kendo and jodo. Actually, you do the spinning with your wrists and shoulders. You CANT do it with the finger because you don't have enough strength, enoungh momentum and the staff inevitably falls from your hands.

    Fingers evolved to be used to manipulation and precision works, not to use weapons.
    Last edited by Caracol; 2008-02-17 at 11:01 AM.

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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    Two things.

    1. Wouldn't it be easier to hold (and make more sense) if there was one large hole in the center instead of several little ones? The spinning might be a little easier. Then again, this might make it too much like the chakram. Point already made. But realism tends not to affect D&D much. A good example would be Axel from KH2. His chakrams are not very solid, and have a cross-grip in the middle. The spikes are also a nice touch. Then again, in that same game people use sitars, keys, and giant cards as weapons, so maybe its not the best example.

    2. You say it gives a deflection bonus against arrows. From the SRD:

    Deflection Bonus

    A deflection bonus affects Armor Class and is granted by a spell or magic effect that makes attacks veer off harmlessly. Deflection bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC except other deflection bonuses. A deflection bonus applies against touch attacks.
    Emphasis mine.

    It would be better as a shield bonus, as this weapon is basically a tiny shield with an edge that you can throw at people.
    Last edited by Reptilius; 2008-02-17 at 11:09 AM.
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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    Quote Originally Posted by Reptilius View Post
    Two things.

    1. Wouldn't it be easier to hold (and make more sense) if there was one large hole in the center instead of several little ones? The spinning might be a little easier. Then again, this might make it too much like the chakram.
    It would make marginally more sense as a buckler with sharp, heavier edges. Still rather joke than weapon, but good grip in the middle would give some chances to actually slash with it.

    Buckler's are another simple proof why this weapon is complete nonsense.
    People where using bucklers to bash other people. Look at the link, the punchlike shape of this shield - it was designed to knock something with it.
    Yet nobody was ever trying to make slashing version, not to mention spinning it.

    It would be extremaly cumbersome and uneffective.
    Last edited by Spiryt; 2008-02-17 at 11:08 AM.
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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    Thanks for the reference Caracol. Maybe it should be just for throwing instead, in which cast it'll just be a bigger type of shuriken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caracol
    And, if even using a disc weapon spinning it with your wrist is useless and difficult, what about using YOUR FINGERS?
    I understand the concept is a bit weird for melee, i guess it would be very hard to find a way for it to work, but didn't we say you do use your fingers to use it?

    @Spiryt: A buckler already exists in DnD, and no, I didn't think of it like that at all.
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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    Quote Originally Posted by Reptilius View Post
    Axel from KH2. His chakrams are not very solid, and have a cross-grip in the middle. The spikes are also a nice touch.
    I like this one very much. This is like what I originally thought of it as, but then decided to alter it ((badly)) to make it more realistic. I like this so much more and should like to base the discus on this instead.
    Last edited by Ethrael; 2008-02-17 at 11:28 AM.
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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    Quote Originally Posted by Reptilius View Post
    Axel from KH2. His chakrams are not very solid, and have a cross-grip in the middle. The spikes are also a nice touch.
    Dear god, THAT is something that would really never work if used as a spinnin object. The cross grip is good to smash something istead, and the spikes too are good for the same purpose (but is still a stupid weapon in my opinion. Damn, just use a mace, it has more reach and is less encumbering than that thing)

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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    Quote Originally Posted by Caracol View Post
    Dear god, THAT is something that would really never work if used as a spinnin object. The cross grip is good to smash something istead, and the spikes too are good for the same purpose (but is still a stupid weapon in my opinion. Damn, just use a mace, it has more reach and is less encumbering than that thing)
    This "weapon" turned my brain inside out.

    Anyway I can say that I agree about those Xena's things - they looks like much more plausible material for weapon.

    They're still stupid, but at least they are not circles. Good swing of arm with those actually could be somewhat dangerous.
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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    the question is, could you hide one of these in a bowler hat, Ala Oddjob.
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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    Just let logic go. Complaints regarding complaints spoilered because I don't know how to conserve space.
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    FANTASY LOGIC.

    FANTASY LOGICFANTASY LOGICFANTASY LOGICFANTASY LOGIC.

    BY FANTASY LOGIC, NOTHING MAKES SENSE.

    If I can stab you with a dagger, I can also throw it into your spleen perfectly.

    I can use a scythe as an effective weapon by trying to poke you with it.

    Let up on the logic of the poor thing. It looks 'badass', therefore it is allowable by fantasy logic.


    To the weapon, a range increment. A limit to spikes (and note that spikes make damage peircing/slashing). If they are still 'spinney' weapons, a move action to start them up(standard for nonproficient, nonproficients Reflex Save DC 12 to maintain spin after an attack). You may use 'deflect arrows' with a spinning whatchamawhoozit.

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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    Let up on the logic of the poor thing. It looks 'badass', therefore it is allowable by fantasy logic.
    Well, we have definetly different definitons of "badass". To me it looks stupid, not badass.

    And I don't agree with "fantasy logic". Id depends on fantasy. Yeah, there is fantasy's like Kingdom Heart, but there are much more at least quasi realistic settings.

    And D&D is quasi realistic. Look at the weapons in PlayerHandbook. There all are weapons witch were used somewhere (some of they have ridiculous stats, or are drawn ridiculously, but still). Weapon that somehow spins around in someone's hand, and do anything with such spikes doesn't fit D&D at all.

    IMO.
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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    I agree that it's far-fetched, but instead of simply dismissing it as stupid, I'd like some help as to make it better. I'm open to criticism, and I understand that you think it's dumb, but I've got no idea right now on how to make it better.

    I think I agree with Caracol that I made it way too complicated with the spikes, so I'd like to get rid of that idea. I wouldn't mind making it only ranged, or non-spinning and only for slashing attacks, with the cross-grip though, but it would be so much easier with some actual suggestions instead of only opinions.

    @Parvum: I like your idea, it clarifies my previous one, but I think we'd be getting to much into complicated mechanisms and it would be too complicated so noone will want to buy/use it. I also don't believe it should get a shield bonus if it's going to be hollow in the middle with only a cross-grip. The deflection of arrows was mainly for the original discus with a material across the middle to actually deflect it.
    Last edited by Ethrael; 2008-02-17 at 01:27 PM.
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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrael View Post
    I agree that it's far-fetched, but instead of simply dismissing it as stupid, I'd like some help as to make it better. I'm open to criticism, and I understand that you think it's dumb, but I've got no idea right now on how to make it better.
    Well, mechanically, you must do something with spikes, cause it's overpowered. Even if you can buy only 2 addtional spikes it makes weapon 1d8 + 2d4 - 3 - 16
    which is far too much for no real cost.

    I would say that as thrown weapon it have some sense, although it seems to me that one of spikes should be some kind of grip to allow throw without hurting self.
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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    And D&D is quasi realistic. Look at the weapons in PlayerHandbook. There all are weapons witch were used somewhere (some of they have ridiculous stats, or are drawn ridiculously, but still). Weapon that somehow spins around in someone's hand, and do anything with such spikes doesn't fit D&D at all.
    Um... have you seen the spiked chain?


    I imagined this sort of like Xena's chakram (again, just because it's silly doesn't mean anything - it's fantasy). I'd say that you should say it's main focus is as a thrown weapon (sort of like a big shuriken), but in dire situations it can be used as a melee weapon. In melee, just have it deal damage as a dagger of its size, since it's certainly not going to be as good as a longsword (1d8 damage). If you use spikes, maybe increase the size category by one instead of adding a bunch of extra d4s. Maybe you could also add in a feat that lets you treat the discus as if it had the returning property?

    One other nitpick - is there a reason it's a x3 crit? I sort of see it as being more like 18-20/x2 or something like that. Most weapons that are described as having razor-sharp edges (kukris, swords, etc.) have a higher chance of critting, as opposed to weapons that just do a lot of damage but more rarely when they happen to crit (like axes, hammers, and such).
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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    I imagined this sort of like Xena's chakram (again, just because it's silly doesn't mean anything - it's fantasy). I'd say that you should say it's main focus is as a thrown weapon (sort of like a big shuriken), but in dire situations it can be used as a melee weapon. In melee, just have it deal damage as a dagger of its size, since it's certainly not going to be as good as a longsword (1d8 damage). If you use spikes, maybe increase the size category by one instead of adding a bunch of extra d4s. Maybe you could also add in a feat that lets you treat the discus as if it had the returning property?
    Emphasis by me.

    I agree with a lot of this, especial the damage issues. That part about dire situations, would is make sense to put in a penalty when using it as a melee weapon?

    Also, what do you mean by adding a feat to make it returning? I just thought, it would embedd itself in the enemy, unless it already had the returning property. Do you mean make it so that it already has the returning property?

    About the crit, I didn't really have a reason for making it x3, and I think it's better with a larger range of critting but still with a x2.
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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    Quote Originally Posted by rtg0922 View Post
    Um... have you seen the spiked chain?
    Spiked chain certainly isn't very good idea, and the fact that you can optimize it very, very well, so it's in fact ultimate melee weapon in D&D, certainly speaks against D&D.

    But again, striking someone with a long chain has sense, and can be brutaly effective. In my country punks were famous for using chains to battle skinheads. We have even few jokes about it...

    But back to topic, chain certainly isn't war weapon like sword, polearm e.c., but still it can be effective.

    This thing from HK2 cannot. That's what I was trying to say.


    About mechanic of this:

    I think it can stay that way ( 1d4, 40ft, crit x 3), but it's then so weak that no one would waste a feat to take it.
    So maybe add :
    Character proficient with Discus can add half of her Dexterity modifier to damage, in addtion to additional damage from her strenght score.
    It would be very useful for high Dex character's, but probably not broken.

    I don't know why it should have such property, and for example throwing axe not fluffwise, but still, that's my suiggestion.
    Last edited by Spiryt; 2008-02-17 at 02:06 PM.
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    Default Re: The Discus [Weapon]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrael View Post
    [COLOR="DarkRed"]I agree with a lot of this, especial the damage issues. That part about dire situations, would is make sense to put in a penalty when using it as a melee weapon?
    I don't think you really need a penalty per se (you are spending a feat to use it anyway, as an exotic weapon), but I think it'd be harder to get a good hit in with it as a melee weapon. That's why I suggested that it only do damage as a dagger of its size when wielded as a melee weapon (1d3 Small; 1d4 Medium).

    Also, what do you mean by adding a feat to make it returning? I just thought, it would embedd itself in the enemy, unless it already had the returning property. Do you mean make it so that it already has the returning property?
    Well, I thought about it in context with Xena's weapon (which may or may not be a good way to think of it). The way it worked was, she threw it, it slashed a guy, and then it flew back in an arc sort of like a boomerang. And there are already mechanics for a boomerang, now that I think about it, but I think treating it as returning seems to be just as easy.

    (The mechanics for boomerangs, I think from the Eberron Campaign Setting, involve having to make a DC 10 touch attack the next round after you throw it to be able to catch it again. The returning property allows you to catch it, but only requires to have a free hand and be in the same spot. I think that works out in the player's favor and doesn't seem too overpowered.)


    @Spiryt: I agree that a chain can be dangerous (motorcycle gangs use them all the time, if TV and movies can be trusted), I just think the idea of a swinging, spinning, spiked chain as a weapon seems silly.
    Last edited by RTGoodman; 2008-02-17 at 02:27 PM.
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