Pros/Cons of Vancian Spellcasting

[Draemr]

Hi guys.

Whenever I play spellcasting characters, I usually play Sorcerers or occasionly Warlocks. I've never played a Wizard as a PC before because I thought Vancian casting was too awkward. I wanted to know what the general gaming community thought of Vancian casting as a system. It seems too easy to me to choose the wrong spells, or not enough/ too many of a spell. Also, the idea of memorising spells beforehand seems too inorganic and unbelievable. Anyway, what do you guys think?

[Gaiwecoor]

I agree that I never really liked that flavor, but it makes more sense in the D&D context than in some others. The game that bridged me into D&D was the Wheel of Time game, where two different caster-types (Initiate and Wilder) that had almost no difference in the books were separated just like the Wizard and Sorcerer. That's when it first rubbed me wrong.

However, once you look at it in the D&D setting, although aggravating, it can make sense. The Wizard / Cleric / whatever prepared caster takes time each day to connect to their magical abilities, whatever their source.

Can choosing your spells be annoying? Might having the wrong spell prepared be your doom? Sure! That's part of the fun of playing the character. Much like a fighter that specializes in reach weapons getting caught off guard when somebody pops up adjacent to them, the wizard can be caught off guard when he doesn't have the right grease spell prepared.

[Swooper]

Think about it this way: Do you want to choose your spells known every day, or do you want to choose them once and be stuck with them for the rest of your life? Sure, wizards are a bit more paperwork, but they pay off by being more versatile in practice (if not in theory). Also, they get new spell levels a whole level earlier. This means, that at every odd level, the wizard has access to (much) better spells than the sorcerer, who is stuck blasting lower level spells.

[AKA_Bait]

Personally, I like the system in concept but was less than thrilled with it's application in 3.x.

Wizards, if kept to limitied and plot specific spells by the DM, would be both an interesting class and pretty well balanced by Vancian casting. However, in practice and by the RAW, Wizards can theoretically get access to any spell and their spellbooks are hardly ever taken away. As such, they are vastly over powered at higher levels.

Clerics and Druids have access to EVERY spell of the level at which they can cast spells. They require no spell book to prepare them and therefore can never lose it. Thus, with every supplement (since WotC seems to put a few new divine spells in every suppliment) they get more powerful (as do Wizards but at least they have to pay for it). Also, for fluff reasons, particularly for Druids, I don't really see the point of it.

It could work well, but it would need a lot of practical game design (what spells exist and what they can do) and gameplay (what the DM's put into play in their gameworld) uses.

[Rutee]

Honestly, I don't have a pro I can think of for Vancian casting. It's primarily only recognizable for its use in DnD, so it's just self-perpetuating in the regard of familiarity, and the notion of the wizard 'forgetting' his spells for that day is too odd, to me. No particular con per se, I suppose, though it does perhaps foster the idea that with proper preparation, someone should be invincible..

[Gaiwecoor]

... and the notion of the wizard 'forgetting' his spells for that day is too odd, to me...

I heartily agree.

Ok, I twiddle my fingers thusly, let the eyelash encased in a bit of gum arabic evaporate and shout "hukka-hukka-hey!" Look! I'm invisible! Wait.. what did I just do?

Maybe it's more of the "taking time to prepare spells" that I understand... not so much with the losing spells after they're cast.

Along similar lines, does it make sense that a caster can only prepare this number of this level spell each day? If you give up a higher spell slot, shouldn't you be able to cast more than just one lower level spell? Has anybody tried the Spell Point variant?

[holywhippet]

Think about it this way: Do you want to choose your spells known every day, or do you want to choose them once and be stuck with them for the rest of your life? Sure, wizards are a bit more paperwork, but they pay off by being more versatile in practice (if not in theory). Also, they get new spell levels a whole level earlier. This means, that at every odd level, the wizard has access to (much) better spells than the sorcerer, who is stuck blasting lower level spells.

I think sorcerers have the option to swap out spells at certain levels so they aren't completely stuck. The versatility of a wizard is questionable though. Maybe they have learned a spell that can help which the party sorcerer hasn't learned like levitate. If they haven't memorised it though, it's not doing them any good. If they have memorised it, they run the risk of getting killed in a fight because they didn't use the spell slot to memorise something else.

[Mojo_Rat]

One way to look at it is to say you cant have your cake and eat it too. You have to have a drawback to having to possibly do everything. And thats the preperasion and planning issue. It forces players to think ahead with what they would like to do and choose between Combat and Utility. Sorcers Etc pay for not having to make that decsion with the limied spell selection.

The actual mechanic behind the system is perfectly sound. As far as The Thematics of it goes part of the issue is that people don't understand that the Wizard does not forget to do everything. They know every spell that they Have in their book What they are doing each morning Is casting 99% of the spell then finishing the spell later when they cast it in combat or whatever.

However I agree Its kind of weak in a world where clerics/druids automatically know every spell.

[Gaiwecoor]

... Maybe they have learned a spell that can help which the party sorcerer hasn't learned like levitate. If they haven't memorised it though, it's not doing them any good. If they have memorised it, they run the risk of getting killed in a fight because they didn't use the spell slot to memorise something else.

In all reality, the wizard is slightly more versatile than that. Remember, the wizard does not need to prepare all spells at once. The wizard can leave some second level spell slots open, spell to be determined later. When it's realized that they need levitate, the wizard takes 15 minutes, and Bam! Levitate. Likewise, if they can foresee that the party will be going into combat, take 15 minutes and he has scorching ray. Admittedly, you can't always tell you're going into combat, so it might not be any more useful than memorizing levitate to begin with.

[AKA_Bait]

Admittedly, you can't always tell you're going into combat, so it might not be any more useful than memorizing levitate to begin with.

But it does always leave you with the 'crud' option you didn't plan for since there is no reason for a wizard at the beginning of the day to prepare MMM, Tiny Hut or the like. They can just leave that slot open for whatever utility spell they might need that they have 15 mins notice to prepare (like fly, or wall of stone etc.)

[Solo]

Also, the idea of memorising spells beforehand seems too inorganic and unbelievable.

So what do you think about loading bullets into guns?

[mostlyharmful]

The problem with the vancian wizard is the paperwork. Not nessisarily that there's a lot of it but that the optimum amount of preperatory thought for the player is such a narrow band.

Too little and they're a walking liability with the DM having to construct every encounter so they don't just flatten the pathetic d4 PC. Too much prep and too much thought put into spell selection, item synergies, optimum whatever and the wizard becomes way way too powerful (as in untouchable, unfindable, unhurtable, unkillable, unstoppable, unsurprisable ) and the DMs job changes from protecting them to despirately trying to challenge them without wiping the rest of the party and half the landscape.

The middle band where wizards are balenced is a tiny little area, and it only gets smaller as your players get more experianced. And the DM doesn't control how much thought the player puts into their wizard. Oh, and that "optimum and balanced" area is at least as much time as you're liable to spend playing the game in the first place

[Rutee]

So what do you think about loading bullets into guns?

I think a mechanical device is not terribly analogous to magic.

Personally, I'm not sure whether Vancian Casting entailing /forgetting/ is unbelievable, but I definitely dislike it. Strictly Vancian interpretation, anyway.. I have zero problem with the concept of being incapable of channeling something more then X times, for reasons of simply not being able to say, push yourself any harder then that.

[Reinboom]

So what do you think about loading bullets into guns?

So what do you think about reloading the gun with more bullets immediately after you shoot it?

[Solo]

I think a mechanical device is not terribly analogous to magic.

Let's say I'm a hand loader, which means I basically buy my own lead bullets, gunpowder, and casings, and then proceed to make my own custom bullets. This is a common practice for sports shooters, as they want to personally create every one of the bullets that they will use for greater consistency.

So, let's say I make six types of bullet, which have varying effects; maybe one has less flash than the others, or a longer range, or has a heavier bullet. Anyways, I now have six bullets.

Let's say I get a single shot rifle and proceed to go hunting.

If I have to make a long shot, I will use the type of ammunition with the longest range. If I have to shoot something that's really large, I'd use the heaviest bullet. If I was shooting at night, I'd use the ammo with the lowest flash. If I was just going to practice shooting at, say, a firing range, I'd shoo the type of bullet that was most accurate.

To me, wizards do something like that, but with magic instead of bullets.

[AKA_Bait]

I think a mechanical device is not terribly analogous to magic.

Personally, I'm not sure whether Vancian Casting entailing /forgetting/ is unbelievable, but I definitely dislike it. Strictly Vancian interpretation, anyway.. I have zero problem with the concept of being incapable of channeling something more then X times, for reasons of simply not being able to say, push yourself any harder then that.

Well, you can use a similar concept for Vancian casting. The mind can only contain so much magical power. A spell is something of a living entity, contained in the book, transfered to the mind, and then released in a controlled manner therefrom.

[Rutee]

Well, you can use a similar concept for Vancian casting. The mind can only contain so much magical power. A spell is something of a living entity, contained in the book, transfered to the mind, and then released in a controlled manner therefrom.

Yeah, you can. That's why I said I dislike the /strictly/ vancian interpretation. As a system without fluff, I really couldn't care less one way or the other. Of course, by that interpretation, I also see nothing wrong with applying it to the melee, but..

Let's say I'm a hand loader, which means I basically buy my own lead bullets, gunpowder, and casings, and then proceed to make my own custom bullets. This is a common practice for sports shooters, as they want to personally create every one of the bullets that they will use for greater consistency.

So, let's say I make six types of bullet, which have varying effects; maybe one has less flash than the others, or a longer range, or has a heavier bullet. Anyways, I now have six bullets.

Let's say I get a single shot rifle and proceed to go hunting.

If I have to make a long shot, I will use the type of ammunition with the longest range. If I have to shoot something that's really large, I'd use the heaviest bullet. If I was shooting at night, I'd use the ammo with the lowest flash. If I was just going to practice shooting at, say, a firing range, I'd shoo the type of bullet that was most accurate.

To me, wizards do something like that, but with magic instead of bullets.

Except the fluff is utterly different; Ammunition doesn't come in flavors like that, within a clip. If, somehow, there were something stopping you from using more of a particular type of bullet within a clip, and the fewer of a type of bullet you could use, it would so follow that it were more powerful, then I could see equating a clip to a particular spell level. As it stands, they have one base similarity (That the amount of ammunition is limitted), but the similarities end there, for all intents and purposes.

[mostlyharmful]

Well, you can use a similar concept for Vancian casting. The mind can only contain so much magical power. A spell is something of a living entity, contained in the book, transfered to the mind, and then released in a controlled manner therefrom.

I always liked that one, very discworldesque. Esspecially when the wizard dying realises the magic without the control, making a wizard a real liability in a fight, gank the wizard BBEG and roll this random effects table sort of thing.

PC1 "Die evil mage! " .... Squish
DM "Ok..... the wall's turned to custard, the rogue's grown two inches and the Barbs axe has turned a very manly shade of pink."
PC2 "Was it a load bearing wall?"
Dm "You hear an ominous creaking from above"
PC3 nice one Dave,

[Solo]

So what do you think about reloading the gun with more bullets immediately after you shoot it?

Reloading a gun takes time. Say, about 8 hours or so.

[AKA_Bait]

Yeah, you can. That's why I said I dislike the /strictly/ vancian interpretation. As a system without fluff, I really couldn't care less one way or the other. Of course, by that interpretation, I also see nothing wrong with applying it to the melee, but..

Fair enough. It's kind of hard for me to parse out what, exactly, the strictly Vancian interpretation is. I'm about 1/2 through the Dying Earth books now (started reading them earlier this week for the first time) and just what the nature of magic and spell casting is seems to be a bit unclear. But that is a topic for another thread/forum.

[Gaiwecoor]

Personally, I'm not sure whether Vancian Casting entailing /forgetting/ is unbelievable, but I definitely dislike it.

Would it be too unbalancing to let the Wizard cast spells like the Spirit Shaman (Complete Divine). For those that don't know: The Spirit Shaman uses the Druid spell list, and can "retrieve" X spells per day, with spontaneous casting. This effectively makes them caster whose known spells shift from day to day. Of course, rather than let them pick from the entire class list (like the spirit shaman does), just have them pick from their spellbook.

As I talk about this more, I like it less. By this point, the Wizard and Sorcerer have very little distinction. I suppose the only thing left separating them would be that the Sorcerer can cast more spells/day than a wizard at a lower level... with more rigidity on which spells they can cast. Never mind.

[mostlyharmful]

Would it be too unbalancing to let the Wizard cast spells like the Spirit Shaman (Complete Divine). For those that don't know: The Spirit Shaman uses the Druid spell list, and can "retrieve" X spells per day, with spontaneous casting. This effectively makes them caster whose known spells shift from day to day. Of course, rather than let them pick from the entire class list (like the spirit shaman does), just have them pick from their spellbook.

As I talk about this more, I like it less. By this point, the Wizard and Sorcerer have very little distinction. I suppose the only thing left separating them would be that the Sorcerer can cast more spells/day than a wizard at a lower level... with more rigidity on which spells they can cast. Never mind.

I once homebrewed up a system that worked something like that, amalgamated wizards and sorcs into Mage. They cast at the rate of sorcs from Int, they had a pool of spells known that they could learn from books, other mages, magical creatures and one free per level. "learning" a spell cost time, money and xp so there was a tradeoff between versatility and advancement. It worked well at lower levels and was about the same at mid levels, never tried it at high levels but I'm sure it would have been pretty much as broken as the standerd. Still it seemed to give a better spread of power over the course of a PCs life than stock core vancian.

[lurker2209]

The one disadvantage I ran into was as a new D&D player; I had no idea which spells to choose each day. My clever DM had a way around this; he house-ruled that castors who had to slot spells could leave open a few freebie slots at each spell level and cast those spontaneously from spellbooks or the Druid/Cleric lists. Of course it was pretty broken, but we had no clue what we were doing, so it really helped reduce the learning curve. In each encounter, I could experiment with different spells and learn which ones worked best for each situation. When we finished that campaign and started the next, we played it by the book, but by then I knew what I was doing and how to slot a good mix of spells for different situations. I think if we had played according to the rules from the onset, it would have been a lot more frustrating to learn.

[DementedFellow]

Reloading a gun takes time. Say, about 8 hours or so.

That's some muzzle loader.

[bibliophile]

Fair enough. It's kind of hard for me to parse out what, exactly, the strictly Vancian interpretation is. I'm about 1/2 through the Dying Earth books now (started reading them earlier this week for the first time) and just what the nature of magic and spell casting is seems to be a bit unclear. But that is a topic for another thread/forum.

Thats part of why Vance's books are so cool. You don't really understand what magic is; there are hints that its some kind of space warp, but weather its magic or technology sufficiently advanced, is left open. The Dying Earth is neither sci-fi nor fantasy, but a mix of both.




Although no-one has mentioned it so far, the big pro of vancian spell casting is that its really easy to implement, and keep balanced in an RPG

[Starbuck_II]

Would it be too unbalancing to let the Wizard cast spells like the Spirit Shaman (Complete Divine). For those that don't know: The Spirit Shaman uses the Druid spell list, and can "retrieve" X spells per day, with spontaneous casting. This effectively makes them caster whose known spells shift from day to day. Of course, rather than let them pick from the entire class list (like the spirit shaman does), just have them pick from their spellbook.

As I talk about this more, I like it less. By this point, the Wizard and Sorcerer have very little distinction. I suppose the only thing left separating them would be that the Sorcerer can cast more spells/day than a wizard at a lower level... with more rigidity on which spells they can cast. Never mind.

WoW the Campaign (D&D) book uses the Arcanist. Spirit Shaman has similar mechanics escept Arcanist can gain extra known/day by having 5 ranks in spellcraft.

They become a dual Sorceror/Wizard class: it was really neat last time I played it. Granted, all Arcanist had to specialize so that was a drawback.

Although no-one has mentioned it so far, the big pro of vancian spell casting is that its really easy to implement, and keep balanced in an RPG

You are being serious?! Um, no, magic in D&D is not balanced.

[Fishy]

Although no-one has mentioned it so far, the big pro of vancian spell casting is that its really easy to implement, and keep balanced in an RPG

No it isn't.

Vancian casting is inherently imbalanced design. Casters get to do their thing N times a day, whereas fighters, rangers, rogues, and warlocks/binders can go as much as they'd like, HP permitting. In order to 'balance' those two radically different mechanics, the game designer has to make the caster more powerful than the other classes when he's casting, and less powerful otherwise- but not too much more and not too much less, or no one is happy.

It also makes more work for the DM. The DM has to balance out the number of encounters per day, or the wizard will either Nova and destroy everything, or be stuck plinking at things with his crossbow. This is on top of the 'learning from scrolls' mechanic, which the DM directly controls, and essentially determines who the wizard is as a character.

Material spell components are a joke. Literally, a joke. Fireballs from bat guano and sulphur? Please.

The 'Schools of Magic' are haphazardly organized. Damage dealing spells are all in Evocation, except for the acid spells, which are conjuration. That's because they create an object, not channel energy- except channeling positive energy, which is also conjuration. And channeling energy from the Shadow Plane to create an object, which is obviously Illusion.

Furthermore, the flavor of casting in D&D is just terrible. Vancian casting is great if you're carving runes into rocks each morning, or hunting for beetles and crushing them in your bare hands to enslave their spirits, or waking up early each morning to turn the hand-crank on your Aetheric Waveform Resonance Magnification Engine- but no, D&D Wizards do their thing by thinking really hard.

Okay, I'll stop now.

[theMycon]

Ammunition doesn't come in flavors like that, within a clip. If, somehow, there were something stopping you from using more of a particular type of bullet within a clip, and the fewer of a type of bullet you could use, it would so follow that it were more powerful, then I could see equating a clip to a particular spell level.

While changing a barrel is far from trivial, it is a fairly standard process. Upping from a .22 to .3006 would be like going from a level 1 spell to level 4. My stepdad (not a professional, but certainly experienced at it) could do it in about ten to fifteen minutes in a field, less in his workshop. Granted, this is more like "every time we're changing spell levels, take five", but it brings the metaphor a bit closer.

[Solo]

Ammunition doesn't come in flavors like that, within a clip. If, somehow, there were something stopping you from using more of a particular type of bullet within a clip, and the fewer of a type of bullet you could use, it would so follow that it were more powerful, then I could see equating a clip to a particular spell level. As it stands, they have one base similarity (That the amount of ammunition is limitted), but the similarities end there, for all intents and purposes.

Never claimed it was perfect, just an analogy.


Although we could say we're using a Robinson Arms XCR modular assault rifle with kits to adapt the rifle to take ammunition from varying calibers.

And this wizard runs around with his rifle, changing magazines and barrels as needed, while taking 8 hours to reload his magazines.

See what happens when you take a metaphor too far?

Don't do it.

[Baron Malkar]

Just go with ultimite magus and be done wit it.