Mountain Rage+Enlarge Person+Spiked Chain=Cheese?

[Ascension]

Okay, I'm planning a goliath barbarian for a future campaign at the moment, and I'm planning on taking the racial substitution levels to pick up Mountain Rage. Mountain Rage allows a goliath (who already functions as a large creature in many respects due to its powerful build) actually become Large during a rage. Yes, it kills catgirls. But it's also badass. Anyway, that raises reach to 10ft. If he gets enlarge person cast on him while raging, that should, as far as I can tell, take him up to Huge and give him 15ft reach. The racial Dex penalty will keep it from getting too cheesy, I suppose, but I'm highly tempted to pump his Dex and give him a spiked chain and combat reflexes. 20 ft reach. Combat reflexes. The insane strength bonuses from the goliath race, the raging, and the size increases should mean that I can build a relatively weak barbarian and sink at least enough into Dex to get me two extra AOOs, possibly three. As long as the rage and the magic last, practically anybody who moves within 20 feet of the very large and very angry barbarian gets whacked.

Too much cheese?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Not really, especially if your party has a lot of spellcasters who will appreciate the protection. Also, throw in Rombilar's Gambit and add trips to each AoO. Yor allies will love this. Lockdown is good for the whole party, and won't make you auto-kill encounters.

[tyckspoon]

It's worse than that- Reach weapons don't add 5 feet of reach, they double whatever you already have. You get 20 feet out of the chain when you go Large (I assume your equipment changes size with you when you rage, otherwise it'd be almost completely useless..) and that gets bumped up to 30 if you then manage to get Enlarged. Assuming that stacks; there's a line in Enlarge Person that says that 'magical size-changing effects do not stack.' What class of ability is Mountain Rage?

Whether or not it's too cheesy depends a lot on the rest of your group and the group's normal playing style. Excessively large chain-masters fit in pretty well with the upper-mid range of optimization and in big open spaces. Most dungeons, on the other hand, are sized for Medium creatures. Large creatures can fit with some squeezing, and Huge ones usually just can't get in. If you spend a lot of time in traditional-type dungeons, the cheese you can access by way of size increase is limited by how high the ceilings are.

[Rachel Lorelei]

Enlarge Person can't target a Goliath. They're not persons. Sorry!

[AmberVael]

Enlarge Person can't target a Goliath. They're not persons. Sorry!

Ouch. That had to hurt their equal rights movement.

"Goliaths are people too!"
"Nope, they can't be targeted by Enlarge Person."
"...err...."

[bugsysservant]

Isn't there an aberrant feat which increases reach by 5 feet? I think it gives a penalty to attack, but if you're going for sheer AoOs, you may want to look into it.

[The Glyphstone]

Enlarge Person won't work. Expansion will ...and it'll grow you by TWO size categories ...you just need Hidden Talent, or a few levels in PsyWarrior and Practiced Manifester...psionics ftw!

(Goliath manifesting augmented Expansion then going into Mountain Rage with Abberant Reach and wielding a Spiked Chain...50ft. circle of PAIN...

[Jack Zander]

Just have the party sorcerer/wizard research a spell called Enlarge Giant which only targets giants instead. (Requires DM approval first).

[Aquillion]

Expansion doesn't stack with this (and, according to it, nor will anything else.) Read it carefully; it says:

Multiple effects that increase size do not stack, which means (among other things) that you can’t use a second manifestation of this power to further expand yourself.

Note the lack of the word 'magical'.

[Ascension]

*sigh* I knew I was neglecting to think of something. For what it's worth, Mountain Rage is (Ex), so magic could stack with it, but I totally forgot about the mechanical difference between monstrous humanoids and humanoids. I'm not really well versed in magic, but is there any spell that enlarges monstrous humanoids?

[brian c]

Enlarge Person won't work. Expansion will ...and it'll grow you by TWO size categories ...you just need Hidden Talent, or a few levels in PsyWarrior and Practiced Manifester...psionics ftw!

(Goliath manifesting augmented Expansion then going into Mountain Rage with Abberant Reach and wielding a Spiked Chain...50ft. circle of PAIN...

Frequently misread property of psionics: You need more than just a few levels of PsyWarrior to use the two-sizes version of expansion because of the limit on number of powerpoints usable on one manifested power. Even if you have enough power points, you aren't allowed to manifest enough of them to grow two sizes.

[Chronos]

Frequently misread property of psionics: You need more than just a few levels of PsyWarrior to use the two-sizes version of expansion because of the limit on number of powerpoints usable on one manifested power.

That's what the Practiced Manifester is for: It increases your Manifester Level, which in turn increases the amount of points you're allowed to spend on a power.

[ladditude]

Take any medium creature, give them monkey grip with a large weapon. Then, cast enlarge person. Thus, you have a 30ft reach. Give him combat reflexes for more AoOs and a high dexterity. Then take standstill. Finally, put several damage enchants on your chain. Thus, anything that get within 30ft of you should have to make a dexterity check somewhere near 30. Finally, make your character a knight so that all terrain in your threat range is difficult. Thus, nobody can make a 5ft step inside your threat range.

Then you can just let all of the wizards and clerics and rogues in your group kill the things. Plus, your rogue will get flanks A LOT easier.

[Nebo_]

Take any medium creature, give them monkey grip with a large weapon. Then, cast enlarge person. Thus, you have a 30ft reach. Give him combat reflexes for more AoOs and a high dexterity. Then take standstill. Finally, put several damage enchants on your chain. Thus, anything that get within 30ft of you should have to make a dexterity check somewhere near 30. Finally, make your character a knight so that all terrain in your threat range is difficult. Thus, nobody can make a 5ft step inside your threat range.

Then you can just let all of the wizards and clerics and rogues in your group kill the things. Plus, your rogue will get flanks A LOT easier.

Weapon size has nothing to do with reach. The creature wielding the weapon determines that. Standstill doesn't force dexterity checks, it forces reflex saves, and the best way to pump those is with power attack, not with damage enchantments. The wording says they have to make a save against how much damage it would have done without having to actually hit. So, power attack to your heart's content and nothing can move. I abused this in a one shot with an Ogrun (Iron Kingdoms) enlarged to huge with standstill and Thicket of Blades, for 30' reach. The DM was making DC 60ish reflex saves every time he moved.

[Aquillion]

That's what the Practiced Manifester is for: It increases your Manifester Level, which in turn increases the amount of points you're allowed to spend on a power.

But you still need at least 7 power points and a manifester level of 7 to do it, even just once per day (and if you can only do it once per day, you're going to suck, so let's say at least 14.) That's going to eat up a lot of feats, even with the two bonus feats you get from psiwar; and you'll need at least 3 levels of psiwar + a source of at least 11 power points (to do it twice a day). You could get away with less if you just want to do the one-size increase, but since you probably want it to last more than one round it's still going to involve a high wis mod, a feat or two, and at least a few levels of psiwar (you might as well take two levels of psiwar if you're going to take one, though, since you'll get an extra bonus feat and an extra power and won't lose any more BAB over only taking one.)

But, I should add -- none of this matters, because expansion does not stack with anything that increases size unless the ability in question specifically says otherwise. Period. Expansion is very good, but (aside from starting as an already-large race) there is nothing you can do to increase your size any further.

[Bandededed]

When you change size, doesn't your powerful build continue to function?

Thus, you could wield a Huge weapon while you are large. This should work, because your equipment grows when you do.

So as a large creature, you would have reach = 30 feet.

If you really want the reach of a Gargantuan creature (with a spiked chain), talk the party wizard into researching that spell, like Jack Zander suggested.

[Talic]

Let's say your Mountain raging Goliath barbarian is evil. Let's also say somewhere down the line, an ancestor was a sicko. Let's also say that level 2 is fighter.

1st Aberrant heritage (+2 to let's say, grapple)
Flaw Inhuman Reach (-1 to attack rolls, +5 foot reach)
Flaw Willing Deformity (Vile, +3 Intimidate)
Fighter EWP Spiked Chain (level 2)
Deformity: Tall (-1 AC, +5 Foot Reach) (level 3)

Now, your base reach is 15 feet (20 while raging). Thus, your spiked chain has 30 foot reach (40 while raging). From here on out, cheese out extra feats towards improved trip, robilar's gambit, combat reflexes, or what have you. You have twice the radius of a Fireball spell.

Alternately, you can hold off on the vile feats for a couple levels, taking only 20 and 30 foot reach to start, and pick up combat reflexes, and the like to start with. Thus, at level 2, you'll be the fiend, and at level 3 and 6, you get the extra reach.

For even more cheese, go with a lycanthrope form, like werewolf, and take warshaper for another 5 foot reach at higher levels. That'll boost you to 50 foot reach, with your chain.

Gentlemen, Elvis has left the building. I'm out.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Better way to do it:

Half Giant PsiWar/Slayer/Warmind5

EWP: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise. Improved Trip. Combat Reflexes and Karmic Strike. Power Attack/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack.

Powers to manifest: Psionic Lion's Charge and Expansion (augmented)

In effect:

Huge dude wielding Gargantuan spiked chain with insane reach. Anyone provokes gets smacked. Hard. Because of PA/ST/LA combo, he'll be charging (psionic lion's charge to get full attacks) for max AC to damage. He'll be landing about thirty feet away from his primary target, still within melee range, but far enough away he can repeat the charge again next turn if something survives. Anyone provokes AoO within 30' of him falls over for minimum of a hundred plus damage a hit.

Oh yes, and any time he hits someone, someone else gets hit too, thanks to the Warmind5 ability.

[SadisticFishing]

(Augmented) Expansion + Half-Ogre is pretty freaking scary with a reach weapon. 15ft size, 30ft reach, that makes a 45ft radius of battlefield ownage. Grab Thicket of Blades, Mage Slayer, and Stand Still and you're rather hardcore. Woopie.

[Nebo_]

When you change size, doesn't your powerful build continue to function?

Thus, you could wield a Huge weapon while you are large. This should work, because your equipment grows when you do.

So as a large creature, you would have reach = 30 feet.

If you really want the reach of a Gargantuan creature (with a spiked chain), talk the party wizard into researching that spell, like Jack Zander suggested.

Huge Weapon != Huge Reach

Reach is based on creature size, not weapon size. Why do people not understand this?

[SadisticFishing]

Huge Weapon != Huge Reach

Reach is based on creature size, not weapon size. Why do people not understand this?

Because it's highly counterintuitive. If my weapon is 15 feet long, why can't I reach 15 feet away with it?

[Talic]

Because it's highly counterintuitive. If my weapon is 15 feet long, why can't I reach 15 feet away with it?

Because it's not quite. Arms give you reach, grip gives you reach. Your mass helps give you reach. Someone who weighs 400 pounds can stretch a bit farther than someone who weighs 200, allowing his weight to counterbalance. Shorter people may be able to USE it, but they may have to choke up a bit on the hilt, or not stretch it to full length. Thus, they lose the extra bit of reach that the weapon's potential has.

Further, the PsyWar build up there starts being effective around level what? 5? 7? Until then, it's a spiked chain fighter. Good, nothing special. The aberrant trick works at level 2.

Further, they can be combined. Change out Half-giant for Human, go 4 feats with PsyWar, Get EWP Spiked Chain, Weapon focus spiked chain, Aberrant heritage, and Inhuman reach. Now, your attack is balanced by the focus, and later, you can get the Expansion (and then Augmented), along with Willing deformity, and deformity: tall. Heck, throw in lycanthrope and warshaper.

5 foot (base) +5 foot (tall) +5 foot (reach) +5foot (warshaper) +10 foot (size) = 30 foot reach base. Throw on spiked chain, and it's 60 foot reach. Do it with Half giant, and you get an extra +1 ecl, and -1 to hit, but powerful build will push it to 70. Now you can swing your chain disgustingly far.

EDIT: For the penalties given by Half-Giant, I'd rather take Half ogre, and get starting size Large, and better strength. End reach would also be 70 feet.

[CthulhuM]

It might be worth mentioning that there is also a feat in Savage Species that increases the reach of any "flexible appendage" by 5 feet (and arms enhanced by the aberrant reach feat almost certainly count as flexible appendages). So between those two and the vile feat, you can get a 20 foot base reach from feats alone.

Then, assuming you aren't hellbent on the goliath thing, you can use enlarge person to get yourself a 25 foot base reach, and (if you're a shifter or changeling) take levels in warshaper to get it up to 30 feet. Then throw on your spiked chain, and you've got yourself a 60 foot reach.

[Talic]

It might be worth mentioning that there is also a feat in Savage Species that increases the reach of any "flexible appendage" by 5 feet (and arms enhanced by the aberrant reach feat almost certainly count as flexible appendages). So between those two and the vile feat, you can get a 20 foot base reach from feats alone.

Then, assuming you aren't hellbent on the goliath thing, you can use enlarge person to get yourself a 25 foot base reach, and (if you're a shifter or changeling) take levels in warshaper to get it up to 30 feet. Then throw on your spiked chain, and you've got yourself a 60 foot reach.

Arms by their nature are flexible.

Add that to my above build, Half ogre PsyWar with deformity (tall), inhuman reach), warshaper reach, expansion 2 size cat growth, and the savage species feat, we've got:

10 base + 5 (tall) + 5 (reach) + 5 (warshaper) +10 (growth) + 5 (savage species feat) = 40 ft reach with a greatsword, or 80 foot with spiked chain. That reach even puts the tarrasque to shame. Also note, the weapon is gargantuan, something like 4d8 + power attack + 1.5 Str + Enhancement on a stand still attack. That'll keep most things paralyzed in your threat range. Let it get 70 feet away, and then stand still wherever it goes.

Since spiked chains are a double weapon, make one side Brilliant energy and the other, hmm, Ghost touch?? You'll tear through armor, and just swing the other side vs ghosts, constructs, etc. Also, the ghost touch should be adamantine, the brilliant energy? Cold Iron.

[bugsysservant]

Since spiked chains are a double weapon, make one side Brilliant energy and the other, hmm, Ghost touch?? You'll tear through armor, and just swing the other side vs ghosts, constructs, etc. Also, the ghost touch should be adamantine, the brilliant energy? Cold Iron.

A spiked chain isn't a double weapon. It just looks that way because whoever drew it has no idea about how weapons can actually be wielded. Also, ghost touch has no effect on constructs as far as I know. The rest looks good though.

[Roderick_BR]

It's worse than that- Reach weapons don't add 5 feet of reach, they double whatever you already have.

Can you show me where it says that? I looked everywhere, and can't find where it says reach is doubled.

Actually, I haven't found anything saying what are the exact reach modifiers. Though it makes sense that reach should double, gaining a +5 from the natural attack, and +5 from the weapon. Except that larger weapons doesn't gain a better reach. At least I didn't see anything allowing it. Else, you could use a Large spiked chain with Monkey Grip to get a reach of 15ft, along the damage increase (and bonus on resisted checks).

[bugsysservant]

Can you show me where it says that? I looked everywhere, and can't find where it says reach is doubled.

Actually, I haven't found anything saying what are the exact reach modifiers. Though it makes sense that reach should double, gaining a +5 from the natural attack, and +5 from the weapon. Except that larger weapons doesn't gain a better reach. At least I didn't see anything allowing it. Else, you could use a Large spiked chain with Monkey Grip to get a reach of 15ft, along the damage increase (and bonus on resisted checks).

From the SRD:

Reach Weapons

Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, spiked chains, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

[Keld Denar]

All the above said, a goliath should be using a large sized weapon of whatever type he likes at all times. While it doesn't gain any extra reach in normal form, there are no penalties due to Powerful Build and the damage die bump is nice. Then, when said goliath becomes large due to Mountain Rage (a nonmagical enlarge effect that DOES NOT affect equipment), he is a large creature using a large weapon and gains all associated reach allowed per weapon type.

One thing I always wondered though, and a spiked chain doesn't have this problem, but what happens to the dead zone on a polearm like a glaive when you become larger? Does the dead zone stay at adjacent (5') or does it double as well? For example, an ogre with a glaive, can he attack something at 10'? or does the dead zone on a glaive extend out so he can only attack at 15' and 20'?

[Mr. Friendly]

Mountain Rage+Enlarge Person+Spiked Chain=Cheese?

Fixed that for you.

The sheer number of "Well you can do this too!" should indicate that.

Also, the fact that almost every melee build seems to involve Spiked Chains...

I say you avoid the obvious cheese schtick and go for the Scythe. It's a crappy weapon except for the crit multiplier. It has a lot of style though.

[Keld Denar]

Spiked Chain gets a lot of flack for being an overpowered weapon, but in reality, its reach in general that is strong, but not nearly overpowered. Once you get past about level 4, you start encountering a lot of things that are large(tall) and have 10' natural reach. To counter this, a smart fighter buys himself a reach weapon to avoid having to charge through a threatened area and soak up an AoO in most situations. Its kind of a scaling arms race between a fighter and the bigger badder monsters.

The spiked chain allows a fighter to trade money and and feat investments for a single feat, EWPL: Spiked Chain. He could get a much similar effect with a glaive or other polearm and armor spike, at the loss of some money (enchanting spikes) and combat effectiveness (feats spent on primary weapon type not applying to spikes, spikes have lower base damage and can't be 2handed for power attack returns). Unfortunately, its the only weapon that can do what it can do, which is why a lot of people take it. If there were 4-5 weapons that did what a spiked chain did, I'm sure that they would be just as viable weapons for similar but slightly different situations.

Its not broken or overpowered, just unique and a smart choice tactically.