How would you build a 5th level Druid?

[Mars]

Started a new campaign and I built a Druid to play.
We are using the 18,16,14,12,10,8 rule to use stats.

This is my character

Elf Druid
Str: 12
Dex: 18 (20)
con: 15 (14)
int: 10
wis: 16
cha: 8

Equipment: Gloves of Con+1, Composite Longbow +1 (with +1 str bonus), Dragonhide Breastplate, Ring of Protection +1, Amulet Natural +1

Feats: Point Blank, Precise Shot
Animal Companion: Ape

Rules: Start with 9000gp, Can only have either +1 Weapon OR Armour

Would have liked to know, how other people in the community would have built a 5th level druid. At next level I will take Rapid Shot. I know that by going the bow feat route that I lose out on Natural Spell.

So what would you guys build with these restrictions in place? questions?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

If you want to go bow, druids aren't that good. Druid archers lose out on Wildshape and have less ability synergy than you want, plus archery is feat-intensive. You can get a better effect by going ranger. You have the same fluff, but full BaB, better spells for the effects you want, more HD, and bonus feats.

[Tempest Fennac]

I'd say you should put the 18 into Wis, put the 16 into Con, and the 14 into Dex. Depending on your spellcasting style, Augment Summoning and Augment Healing would both be useful feats ( http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-...ent_Healing,CD ). Also, Natural Spell is a brilliant feat which should be taken unless your DM banned it as it allows you to combine your classes 2 best abilities.

[Cuddly]

I'd go with ranger or a nature themed cleric if I wanted use a bow.

As it is, I'd put your highest stat in wisdom (the 18), and the second highest in constitution. Personally, I'd go with human as my race.
stat array:
str 10
dex 12
con 16
int 14
wis 18
cha 8

You get wildshape, which means you get to be an animal, making physical stats largely irrelevant. If you're feeling particularly brave, you can take a -3 penalty to your physical stats and get +2 to your mental for being middle aged. I wouldn't recommend it, though.

And don't, don't, don't pass up natural spell. It's too good.

Feat wise, improved unarmed attack + improved grapple may be desirable. An item crafting feat may be helpful (infusions, wondrous items, potions). Improved initiative is always good. You don't qualify for any of the cool monster feats, like improved natural weapon or multiattack, just yet.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Small correction to the previous poster:
Str 8
Dex 10
Cha 12

And go Ghostwise Halfling. You get telepathy, so you can still talk to your party while wildshaped. I also recommend Natural Bond and a Leopard or a Fleshraker instead of an Ape. And I don't recommend using age penalties, other than the first -1/+1 since you have an item of +1 con to cancel it.

[Cuddly]

I wouldn't ditch my physical stats so quick, since he has to deal with wildshape 1/day for a level.

[Tempest Fennac]

That is a good point, as well as being another reason why I wouldn't bother with being middle aged (also dumping your physical stats too much could cause problems if, for some reason, you couldn't use Wildshape).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Eh, until he gets Natural Spell, he won't be fighting anyways. He's essentially a full caster with a meatshield as a class feature. And he's got 41 hp and entangle, so he shouldn't die unless he screws up.

[Tempest Fennac]

Good point (to be fair, I tned to consider the idea of Druids or Monks starting at Middle Aged for the stat adjuetments to be ironic due to how they both become immune to the physical stat loss at level 15).

[Mars]

I know that if i wanted to go a pure bow class, i would either go like bow fighter or a ranger. I know if i wanted to go pure wild shape form, i would go augment summoning and collect natural spell at level 6.

But the thing is, I want a character that can be versitile, can attack in druid form, can still kick arse in wild shape form.

also, we use the core dnd classes and races so the ghostwise halfing is out.

the other thing with druid, is they have a few skill points to divide, so they aren't bad to ROLEPLAY either, i don't just ROLLPLAY.

Another thing i should have mentioned, is that we play once every two weeks for about 3-4 hours. So it's not like we level up quickly either.

[Tempest Fennac]

Couldn't you still use a Longbow without the archery feats? I know you wouldn't be quite as effective, but you would be able to use the feats for things which would probably make you more effective overall (I mainly suggested Augment Healing because I didn't know if your group had a Cleric).

[Mars]

The thing that I really want is precise shot, but point blank is needed. Otherwise firing into melee is dangerous, and to use a longsword in melee would suck.
We do have a cleric, so don't need augment healing.

I could take natural spell over rapid shot, but I see Wild Shape as more of a refill my HP than, lets go into melee form.

I'll have +9/+9 to hit at level 6 with rapid shot. at 1d6+3, which isn't too bad

[Tempest Fennac]

You could ask your DM if s/he would let you have precise shot without the prequisite feat. Also, are you planning on summoning a lot? I would say that not bothering with rapid shot would be wise considering what natural spel does.

[Leon]

Congratz on choosing a "Non-Standard" Druid - if only there more like us...
My suggestion would be to switch the 18 & 16

Have you considered the Prestige Ranger as a potential PrC - Keeps some spellcasting, has Full BAB and a number of other things.
No wild shape Progression but after a couple more lvls of you'll have enough to cover the basics and focus on the ranged aspect

The Ape could use some magic items - if you have the gold to spare, the Feats Natural Bond and Companion spell bond are both boosting the companion

Natural Spell is a Horrid crutch that people claim is a necessity when its not

[Kizara]

Look at the MM stats for "Polar Bear".

Now, imagine having one as a pet. Now, imagine ALSO being one.

Now, imagine doing all this, all the time (essentially), and ALSO casting fairly decent spells (great AoE disables) at the same time.

Now, imagine doing all that and having the option (should you ever need it) to summon in more bears or potentially better things.

Now, tell yourself that you want to use a bow (which you aren't proficient with IIRC) and are taking feats to be slightly better at something you are sub-par at instead of actually taking amazingly better options because you want to "roleplay that way". Personally, I don't like roleplaying my characters as too stupid (or unwise or whatever) to use intelligent battle tactics or using their abilities effectively, but that's me.

Can you use non-core feats? Cause Companion Spell (PHB2) is fantastic.

Otherwise, grab Improved Initiative and Natural Spell (it seriously is a must, not taking this is tatamount to not taking Power Attack as a barbarian). There isn't alot of great choices in core for your 3rd level feat if you arent going the augment summoning route, but Skill Focus (concentration) isn't bad. Maybe take Quicken Spell for use later, since you can take wild shapey feats or improved critical instead later.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Given those stats I would make a level 5 Druid as:

Str 8
Dex 10
Con 16
Int 14
Wis 18
Cha 12

Wildshape for the win. Also note, that the Spell Compendium introduces a Druid 1 spell called Aspect of the Wolf. This is effectively Wolf Wildshape at level 1. Suddenly all those dump stat Druids make even more sense, because they can go from level one.

Also, if for some crazy reason I did want to Shoot with a Druid, I'd be an Elf for Proficiency and I'd take Zen Archery, since that's much better then permanently gimping my casting, and it provides a better bonus to your attack roll then almost any other single ranged attack feat.

But like everyone else said, I wouldn't. The Ranger (and Cleric Archer) exist for a reason.

[Leon]

Now, tell yourself that you want to use a bow (which you aren't proficient with IIRC) and are taking feats to be slightly better at something you are sub-par at instead of actually taking amazingly better options because you want to "roleplay that way". Personally, I don't like roleplaying my characters as too stupid (or unwise or whatever) to use intelligent battle tactics or using their abilities effectively, but that's me..

Elves are proficient with Longbow regardless the class - its a racial thing
As for your choice on what you roleplay - its exactly that Your Choice

I play a Druid that Doesn't Wildshape, Have a Animal Companion or Summon Animals at the drop of a hat - Are you going to say that its not a sound choice that i chose Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike and Wastelander for my feats?

Its sad to see that when someone asks for advice all they recive is the same cookie cutter optimization junk that is passed off as being sound - People have a concept that they need a hand with, not a instruction to play "like this cos its best" - He's playing a Elf Druid with a Bow - wants idea's on how to go about being a Bow slinging defender of nature.
Not to make the Uber ATV from hell

[Tempest Fennac]

I would have to agree with Kizara on this one due to how Natural Spell is such an excellent example of the "highlight psitives, hide negatives" approach which most characters would take if they were real. Here's a link to a large selection of feats if you didn't know about it: http://realmshelps.dandello.net/datafind/feats.shtml .

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I play a Druid that Doesn't Wildshape, Have a Animal Companion or Summon Animals at the drop of a hat - Are you going to say that its not a sound choice that i chose Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike and Wastelander for my feats?

No, but I will say that in a campaign where you have 4 encounters of your cr per day and your DM runs the enemies smart and refuses to pull punches, that druid would probably die. The campaigns I generally play in are harsh and unforgiving, and there's a sort of natural selection among adventurers. If they are optimized, they survive, and if not, they die. After about 5th level, you assume your character is smart enough not to avoid an advantage for personality reasons. Anything else is bad roleplaying.

edit:

Its sad to see that when someone asks for advice all they recive is the same cookie cutter optimization junk that is passed off as being sound - People have a concept that they need a hand with, not a instruction to play "like this cos its best" - He's playing a Elf Druid with a Bow - wants idea's on how to go about being a Bow slinging defender of nature.
Not to make the Uber ATV from hell

My first post, and the first post in this thread, said that if he wants to play an archer who defends nature, he should play a ranger. If he wants to wildshape as well, he should play a variant ranger. He asked how to make this mechanically viable, and I told him. Some concepts are best expressed through different choices than the ones the OP originally made.

[Mars]

I chose 18 dex over 18 wisd cause i felt it gave me more benefit. extra init, extra to hit, extra ac when i get woken in the middle of the night and find myself without time to put on my dragonhide!

We only use the core feats and core classes/races, so I can't use stuff like Natural Bond etc

Also, wild shaping into a Polar Bear...isn't that like 8th level. Fair away at the moment.

Leon, what do you mean my Ape could use magic items?

[Leon]

He's Wanting a Viable Druid - Not ranger (Admitidly they get some nice spells but Druids get a lot more and a lot sooner)

I suggested the Prestige ranger for the BAB and halfcasting, but 100% druid is better if the spells are the big draw card. That and i just rechecked the PrC - its get 2 Feats that he doesn't

No, but I will say that in a campaign where you have 4 encounters of your cr per day and your DM runs the enemies smart and refuses to pull punches, that druid would probably die. The campaigns I generally play in are harsh and unforgiving, and there's a sort of natural selection among adventurers. If they are optimized, they survive, and if not, they die. After about 5th level, you assume your character is smart enough not to avoid an advantage for personality reasons. Anything else is bad roleplaying.

PCs do not need to be Optimized to survive - At any level, I run Harsh and Unforgiving Campagins but players don't need to be twinked to the max to survive, they just need to not play stupid (those that do tend to go squish)

Last session i played with my Druid, we avoided at least 3-4 possible encounters and the only one we had we didn't see coming. the things we fought were rather nasty psionic using creatures that could hit hard and often - all of us survived, none of the Dune reapers did. Teamwork and smart play

[Leon]

Leon, what do you mean my Ape could use magic items?

Apes are vaguley Humanoid so they have an approximantion for using magic items that a PC would - of course they can only use passive effect items since they cant perform command words

Fair enough on the Core only and stat choice

[Sstoopidtallkid]

If he had requested advice on a samurai, and I told him to reflavor a swordsage or fighter, would we even be having this discussion?

Also, polar bear is your companion. You become a Brown Bear, as they are identical in all respects that matter to you.

[Mars]

I can't choose a Polar Bear for my companion, I can only choose a Medium size creature.

Since i am also relatively new to the dnd world. Rangers can wild shape???

Also, Druid has better spells and animal companion than rangers too. I find that Rangers aren't really the alround character until about level 9-10. I'm a lowish level remember. A level 5 ranger can cast like 1 spell a day and it will most likely be entangle.

[Cuddly]

So he wants to play a mechanically unoptimized druid, instead of going with the core class that does exactly what he wants?

I don't know, why not just go ranger? Attached to the spells? Want your pet to be good? Not having full BAB or a source of extra damage is quite a bummer. Doing 1d6+3 damage at any level above 2nd isn't really that good. Not when there are so many other things you could be doing. Ranger would at least let you do 1d6+3 damage a little more often, with a little more regularity.

[Mars]

So he wants to play a mechanically unoptimized druid, instead of going with the core class that does exactly what he wants?

I don't know, why not just go ranger? Attached to the spells? Want your pet to be good? Not having full BAB or a source of extra damage is quite a bummer. Doing 1d6+3 damage at any level above 2nd isn't really that good. Not when there are so many other things you could be doing. Ranger would at least let you do 1d6+3 damage a little more often, with a little more regularity.

I wanted a jack of all trades character, and i didn't care that he was master of none.

sure that 1d6+3 is OK at 5th level. With Rapid shot, it becomes x2. Essentially the same as a greatsword that does 2d6+4.

With multiple entangles, the bow route is quite good. My animal companion also does damage remember, so it would be more than the ranger could do by himself

[Leon]

I wanted a jack of all trades character, and i didn't care that he was master of none.

sure that 1d6+3 is OK at 5th level. With Rapid shot, it becomes x2. Essentially the same as a greatsword that does 2d6+4.

With multiple entangles, the bow route is quite good. My animal companion also does damage remember, so it would be more than the ranger could do by himself

It was a good choice - if it suits you go wth it


Minor point: Longbows do 1D8 not 1D6

[Cuddly]

versatility

I DM for a wildshape spec'd druid (level 8), and he is by far the most versatile member of the party. His buff spells are about on par with the cleric's, his control spells are close to the wizard's, and between him and his tiger animal companion, he's close in killing power to the fighter. And we've largely been sticking to core for 1 through level 8 play. If you decide to go bow, you will actually be giving up versatility. Believe me. Spells and having a different morph for different situations are really, really key. He can scout as a dire rat or eagle, hit hard as a rhino, sneak as a cat, swim. He can do just about anything in wildshape, and augment it as needed with spells. Best of all, his control spells let him hold a fleeing or otherwise mobile opponent in place.

The best part about wildshape is being able to put points in your int to boost your already fairly juicy 4 skills/level.

If he, for some reason, needs to peg something from far away, it's only a couple produce flames away.

[edit]
You won't be hitting as often as the full BAB character with the greatsword, and with a full BAB, they'll be making two attacks/round, which is 4d6 damage.

Anyway, go for whatever. It's really hard to mess a druid up. If you later decide that doing less damage a round than the fighter's base damage isn't so fun, wildshape hasn't gone anywhere.

[Zincorium]

I can't choose a Polar Bear for my companion, I can only choose a Medium size creature.

I'm assuming that's a DM houserule? The RAW contains no such restriction, so that's the only thing that would really matter.

Since i am also relatively new to the dnd world. Rangers can wild shape???

Wildshape Ranger.

Also, Druid has better spells and animal companion than rangers too. I find that Rangers aren't really the alround character until about level 9-10. I'm a lowish level remember. A level 5 ranger can cast like 1 spell a day and it will most likely be entangle.

Rangers are a melee class, they can smash things pretty much from the get-go, albeit not as well as a barbarian. And they are one of the best ranged classes.

From what we've seen, spellcasting isn't a huge deal for your character, you're heavily limited as far as animal companions, and you're really fond of archery. Those may be misinterpretations, but that's what people have been looking at.

[Mars]

It was a god choice - if it suits you go wth it


Minor point: Longbows do 1D8 not 1D6

ah yep, forgot 1d8 heh

Does anyone have any ideas how to tweak my jack of all trades druid?

I've though like rapid shot over precise shot. Add more con so when i wildshape i have more HP. Go Human, and use a sling or a spear.

you know things like that