Does this make sense (feat combination)

[reiko]

Well I have a character using a spiked chain/whirlwind combo.

Now given the statements in the feats of Whirlwind and Knockdown does a whirlwind/knockdown combination work?

Whirlwind says that "when you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at full BAB against each opponent in reach" and "when you use this feat you forfeit any Bonus or extra attacks granted by feats spells or abilities"

Notice that it says extra or bonus. This is important in regards to knockdown.

Knock down says "your mighty blows can knock opponents off their feet" and "whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage in melee you make a trip attack as a free action against the target"


Any opinions? Personally I think they should be fuseable as the concept of knockdown isnt that you hit the guy and then trip him as a seperate action but the force of your strike trips him and Knocks him Down (hence the name) it is referred to as a seperate attack so you're not combining influencable d20 rolls.


So I need input on this. Any ideas?

[SurlySeraph]

I'd say that you get the trip attempts, because they aren't exactly the same thing as attacks.

[Dr Bwaa]

I agree. I think, by RAW, you have to forfeit them if you "forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by feats etc" and "you make a trip attack as a free action." The extra trip attack is technically an attack, and it is granted by a feat, so, like I said, by RAW I think you forfeit it. However, I think that's complete nonsense under RAI, so I say go for it (but make sure with your DM)

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Are you sure that's what Knockdown says? A trip Attack is only the touch attack that precedes a Trip Attempt. So if it really read that way then Knockdown would never actually knock anyone down at all.

[Kurald Galain]

By RAW, no.

By RAI, probably not either - in 3.0, abusing Whirlwind with stuff that gave you extra attacks was common; so I'm quite sure that in 3.5, it is fully intended that the extra attacks from Whirlwind do not, repeat not, stack with extra attacks from anything else whatsoever.

By reasonableness, sure. It's not an ubercombo and requires a series of near-worthless feats as prereqs. I'd have no problem with it myself.

[ColdBrew]

Whirlwind says that "when you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at full BAB against each opponent in reach" and "when you use this feat you forfeit any Bonus or extra attacks granted by feats spells or abilities"

From the context, I'd say this is intended to prevent you from combining Whirlwind Attack with Two-Weapon Fighting or Haste. They don't want players thinking "Well, I'm turning all my iterative attacks into this whirlwind, but I still get all these other attacks."

I'd allow it to mix with Knockback, Knock-Down, or anything else that applies a special effect to your attacks. Ask your DM.

[reiko]

thanks this has helped quite a bit with the decision

between all the feats I have it set up so that at level 10 I basically get to whirlwind a group and have a guaranteed minimum 10 damage and auto knock-down

he was supposed to be the literal crowd control XD

thanks again

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

From the context, I'd say this is intended to prevent you from combining Whirlwind Attack with Two-Weapon Fighting or Haste. They don't want players thinking "Well, I'm turning all my iterative attacks into this whirlwind, but I still get all these other attacks."

I'd allow it to mix with Knockback, Knock-Down, or anything else that applies a special effect to your attacks. Ask your DM.

Actually, the wording is to prevent it from stacking with Cleave. Google Bag of Rats. Before Greater Consumptive Field there was a different bag of rats, equally deadly.

[Funkyodor]

Just remember to use the rules for Cover with a reach weapon if attacking past another creature. Enemies past the first rank will get an AC bonus and cannot be targeted by attacks of opportunity.