Is Overwhelm pretty underwhelming?

[Frosty]

This spell looks pretty cool at first glance. Insta-disable instead of kill for those prisoners you want alive for interrogation. But, the more I look at it, the more I go, "This kinda blows..." since so many defenses work against it. First of all, you have to make a melee touch attack. MELEE! As a caster, you don't want to be that close anyways. Secondly, there's a save to negate. Ok....this isn't too bad since it's a save-or-suck. But on top of that, Spell Resistance also applies! So, AC, Saves, and SR all can defend against this spell. If any one of these is high, then the spell probably won't work. And this is a 6th level spell, compared to Slay Living which is 5th level.

At least Slay Living does *something* on a save. Overwhelm doesn't. and being mind-affecting means a whole crapload of enemies can ignore it as well. What gives with this spell? Do people actualy use it?

[Xavier00]

Oh come on, it's not that... wait, it requires a touch attack!? *checks PH2*
Wow, I never realized that. Oh well, there are plenty of other really good spells for beguilers to use. You're right though. I've played several beguilers and have never really bothered with any of the whelm spells. They are generally very poor spells, especially when you have so many better mind-affecting save or lose spells.

[Frosty]

especially when you have so many better mind-affecting save or lose spells.

Like Dominate Person?

[Aquillion]

Like Dominate Person?

Only on humanoids. Dominate Monster is level 9.

Not that that makes Overwhelm any better, but I thought I'd point it out.

[Collin152]

Touch attack?!
Well, I'll have to pair it with some kind of temporary hinderance. Like suggestion.

[nargbop]

Whelming Blast is the appropriate spell for a frail caster. Maximize it, spray the weak enemies, and allow your fighters to focus on the important dudes.
But, heck, get your DM to OK a Metamagic Rod of Nonlethal Substitution instead. A nonlethal fireball is a beautiful thing.

[Saph]

I think it's intended more for situations where you don't want to hurt the target, such as when your Confused/Insane barbarian teammate is hacking his way through your own party. It's not a spell you'd choose for an all-or-nothing combat.

But hey, beguilers get it for free anyway, so it's not like they're losing anything for having it.

- Saph

[Kurald Galain]

Dealing damage is the one thing that beguilers don't do.

Well, unless they are Killer Gnomes, or arcane disciples.

But hey, you could cast Minor Image instead, that could easily disable someone

[Tokiko Mima]

Beguilers are often up close anyway. They have to be to use their Improved Feint and Suprise Casting skills, so it's not a huge deal to them. It sucks that it requires a touch attack and a Will saving throw, but that means it's ideally used for big tough, stupid foes who will fall for your bluff and have a not-so-good touch AC. It would also be useful in escapes, because a staggered foe won't be able to chase or make full round actions of any kind, and risks unconsciousness if they take even a single additional point of damage from any source.

[Kurald Galain]

Beguilers are often up close anyway. They have to be to use their Improved Feint and Suprise Casting skills,

No, they wield whips for that

Besides, their concealed casting stuff isn't all that good. The wise beguiler stays away from melee.

[Frosty]

I think it's intended more for situations where you don't want to hurt the target, such as when your Confused/Insane barbarian teammate is hacking his way through your own party. It's not a spell you'd choose for an all-or-nothing combat.

But hey, beguilers get it for free anyway, so it's not like they're losing anything for having it.

- Saph

Sure Beguilers get it for free, but I guess I'm just worried about the spell list. Spells of level 1-5 generally kick mucho buttocks. But the later spells seem to put them behind in terms of power compared to the Sorcerer, for example.

But anyhow, if I were to use Overwhelm, I'd have my Familiar deliver it. Is there any way for a Familiar to gain feats? I want my familiar to be able to Spring Attack somehow.

[Chronos]

Is there any way for a Familiar to gain feats? I want my familiar to be able to Spring Attack somehow.

I think there's a spell called Heroics (not to be confused with Heroism) that lets you grant the target feats off of the fighter bonus list. I don't know who can cast it, though.

[DiscipleofBob]

Takes Reach Spell, or any of a number of feats or random equipment.

Touch range becomes moot.

Overwhelm's an awesome spell. Sure, it suffers from a "useless-against-anything-with-a-will-save" thing, but unless I'm mistaken, "useless-against-anything-with-a-will-save" is the Beguiler's entire shtick.

Yea, the other whelm spells are only meh (with the exception of Mass Whelm. 10d6 damage against 10 enemies? What evil minions?)

I would say Overwhelm is better than Dominate Person or Monster in that it's a lot more reliable. What happens when you fail a Will save against Dominate? You pretty much make another one at a +2 since no matter what the caster orders you to do, it's most likely against your nature. Overwhelm and you fail a will save and your HP is at 0. Period. Sure, it's nonlethal, but unlike other save-or-lose spells, this one can't be completely nullified with a single restoration or other low-level cleric spell. Cure? Well, he's still at low HP so the fighter can just whack him into submission. They really don't get much more reliable than that in the school of enchantment, especially for only a level 6 spell.

[Frosty]

True. A 4th level spell doing 10d6 against 10 creatures is cool. But still, by the time you get to level 10, aren't most evil minions tougher than 30 average hp?

[DiscipleofBob]

It really depends on just how many there are. If there's really enough for you to target 10 of them, then they're probably low enough level that if you don't outright knock them out with Mass Whelm, you'll at least get them low enough for the rest of the party to finish them. It's basically a fireball or lightning bolt, except not as limited on area (and it gets a will save. whoop-dee-doo.) That, and if the guys you're fighting are strong enough that a fireball, lightning bolt, or mass whelm isn't effective, you should be spamming Overwhelm or other such stuff anyway.