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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Monk//Ranger Questions

    So I'm going to be in a Gestalt campaign, and I will using a Human Monk 5//Ranger 5 as our pimary super melee. But I have a few questions and want some advice first.

    First off, would Two Weapon fighting feats give me an extra flurry of blows attack? In the same line of thinking, are there any feats that allow for a bow to be used in Flurry of Blows from a distance? Obviously that one feat that allows me to do things like that (Key Focus or something), but would I need other feats, like Rapid Shot or Many Shot?

    Secondly, what would be a fair trade to take away, from either the monk or ranger, in order to get animal compainions as a druid. Keep in mind, we will be fighting, at least I think, a lot of the same enemies, so I want at least 2 favoured enemies.

    So any advice as well? Is this a good idea, or should I do something like Fighter or something else with full BAB?
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    Default Re: Monk//Ranger Questions

    Monk//Ranger? Not much synergy there aside from their ability requirements. Generally, in gestalt, you'll want at least one side to be a full caster class.

    My suggestions: Cleric or Psychic warrior or Druid

    Psywar is probably the best for flavour, since they're pretty martial and fit the theme of a monk pretty well. Just describe the psychic powers as chi or something and avoid the really supernatural ones that make you grow tentacles. Most of the powers are buffs anyway. Some of the psionic feats also let you run up walls, change your attacks to touch attacks, and jump really, really far. It's good stuff.

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    Default Re: Monk//Ranger Questions

    No, Two Weapon Fighting does not give extra Flurry attacks. You can use TWF and Flurry at the same time, but all the restrictions of both still apply; all your attacks get the TWF penalty and the Flurry penalty, and the TWF attacks are off-hand and (assuming you're using a light weapon) only get 1/2 Strength bonus, as usual for a light weapon.

    There is no feat I am aware of that will make a bow a Special Monk Weapon, which would be necessary to use one in a Flurry of Blows.

    From the Ranger side, the only thing you have left of significant value that you haven't already said you want to keep is the spellcasting. That's kind of painful to sacrifice, especially if you're allowed to use the Spell Compendium, but it's worth at least as much as a full-progression animal companion. On the monk half.. I'm leery of swapping bits across the two halves of the gestalt divider, but maybe the speed and/or AC bonus (not the Wis to AC, just the level-based static bonus. Which you'll.. probably sacrifice to wear the chain shirt the Ranger allows you anyway, at least for the lower levels.)

    It would also be worth asking your DM to just change the Ranger animal companion progression to Ranger level-3 instead of half level. The Natural Bond feat (Complete Adventurer) could then bring that up to full level, the same as a Druid's.

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    Default Re: Monk//Ranger Questions

    Feat:Obtain Companion. Animal Companion as a Druid-3
    Feat:Natural Bond. Animal Companion level +3.

    Also, monks I think are weak even in Gestalt, I'd suggest re-fluffing a rogue or Swordsage.

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    Default Re: Monk//Ranger Questions

    Check out the Unearthed Arcana (Or SRD) and find the Cobra Strike Monk style. It makes the monk better at front lining, in my opinioin.
    Also, you apply for the Tempest PrC REALLY EARLY! Same level that a Fighter would, but without using EVERY feat you get, like a fighter must. The Tempest, by itself, is a very "meh" class, but it gives you the ability to do really cool stuff, like I believe you can Cleave on a Spring Attack...or something.
    Anyways, make sure you look at the "Special Monk Weapons", cause they may seem like cheap bland scraps (they are), but they're all light weapons, go great with TWF and Flurry, and will help you kick lots of tail with the Tempest.

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    Default Re: Monk//Ranger Questions

    You could always do BoED Vow of Poverty Monk//Ranger for fun. Nothing quite like a poor guy with beating up baddies, but then again if you were going to do something crazy like that why bother playing since its not CharOp :P

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    Default Re: Monk//Ranger Questions

    I'm going to break with the mold here and say that while better combos certainly exist, ranger//monk isn't all that bad.

    Rangers are already prohibited from wearing anything other than light armor, going to no armor with a boost from wisdom isn't all that painful. In addition, the ranger has full BAB and spells, which dramatically increase a monk's effectiveness.

    At the same time, the greater unarmed damage dice of a monk combined with favored enemy can make TWF actually somewhat worthwhile, or the ranger can go with the archery style and have a good fallback plan. Rangers can also cast magic fang if they need to.


    I'm not going to argue that ranger//rogue or ranger//swordsage (or even ranger//ninja) wouldn't be better combos, but you're not gimping yourself too horribly as it is.
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    Default Re: Monk//Ranger Questions

    Overwhelming Attack combat style monk 5//Ranger 4/Fist of the Forest 1

    You'll have to waste a feat on great fortitude (and get power attack as your 1st level monk feat), but you'll increase your unarmed damage from d8 to d10, get CON to AC (exactly like monk WIS bonus and they stack) and, if I remember right, your unarmed strikes become lesser ghost touch weapons since they're already magic

    The RP requirements on fist of the forest may or may not be an issue.
    Last edited by playswithfire; 2008-03-07 at 11:03 AM.
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    Default Re: Monk//Ranger Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by playswithfire View Post
    Overwhelming Attack combat style monk 5//Ranger 4/Fist of the Forest 1

    You'll have to waste a feat on great fortitude (and get power attack as your 1st level monk feat), but you'll increase your unarmed damage from d8 to d10, get CON to AC (exactly like monk WIS bonus and they stack) and, if I remember right, your unarmed strikes become lesser ghost touch weapons since they're already magic

    The RP requirements on fist of the forest may or may not be an issue.
    Only problem with overwhelming attack is that it's mutually exclusive of TWF, unless you're taking advantage of it with some kind of battlefield control build it doesn't help much.

    Unfortunately, fist of the forest's AC bonus probably does not stack with a monk's, they're the same class feature. It's otherwise a good call.
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    Default Re: Monk//Ranger Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Zincorium View Post
    Unfortunately, fist of the forest's AC bonus probably does not stack with a monk's, they're the same class feature. It's otherwise a good call.
    It does. Stuff

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    Default Re: Monk//Ranger Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Chosen_of_Vecna View Post
    It does. Stuff
    The only thing that would suggest it might is the example character following the fist of the forest entry. There is no complete champion errata, the FAQ is silent on the issue, and complete champion itself does not actually say anything.

    However, it is a class feature of the same name and that works the same way as a class feature that you've already gotten on the other side of gestalt. This would strongly suggest you only get the better one.

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    Default Re: Monk//Ranger Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Zincorium View Post
    The only thing that would suggest it might is the example character following the fist of the forest entry. There is no complete champion errata, the FAQ is silent on the issue, and complete champion itself does not actually say anything.

    However, it is a class feature of the same name and that works the same way as a class feature that you've already gotten on the other side of gestalt. This would strongly suggest you only get the better one.
    In non-gestalt, I'm fairly sure they stack; as you say, they stack in the example, the text doesn't say that they don't (like ninja does), they're based off of different stats and they're both untyped bonuses. You may have a point for gestalt, though. In which case, just do monk 4/fist 1//Ranger 5.

    Only problem with overwhelming attack is that it's mutually exclusive of TWF, unless you're taking advantage of it with some kind of battlefield control build it doesn't help much.
    I think you're thinking of decisive strike, the variant from PHBII. I'm talking about the variant that makes your first level monk feat Power Attack instead of Stunning Fist. You can TWF and Power Attack with unarmed strikes (the one light weapon you can TWF with), though admittedly the penalty to hit can get high. Power Attack's a prereq for Fist and this seems the easiest way to get it, since you don't need the 13 STR unless you want it.

    EDIT: oh, I forgot the fist's fast movement, which is also nice and which a very friendly DM might let you trade for pounce, as with the Lion Spirit Totem barbarian variant
    Last edited by playswithfire; 2008-03-07 at 01:36 PM.
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    Default Re: Monk//Ranger Questions

    As far as I'm concerned for my games, Monk and Fist of the Forest AC bonuses stack. The Monk bonus is drawn from Wis, the Fist of the Forest bonus is drawn from Con.

    Their respective class features share the name "AC bonus," and the Fist of the Forest says "see Monk class feature" to explain how it works. So there's a reasonable argument to be made against it. But FotF is a Monk-ish PrC. So it doesn't make any RAI sense for them to overlap.

    Instead of Monk//Ranger, consider Monk//Druid.

    I agree with others that in gestalt, you generally want one side to be a full caster. It'd have very similar fluff compared to a Monk//Ranger. Druid is a Wis based class, just like Monk. You'd get the full animal companion you want (useless at higher levels, but fun at low levels and full of fluffy goodness for many PCs). And most importantly, you can Wildshape. In your animal forms, you'd gain size, extra attacks, and often pounce and other special abilities. Your Flurry and Stunning Fist would go to waste (though in urban settings where you wouldn't walk around as an animal, you could always burn through your Stun uses if you got into a bar fight or something similar, so you wouldn't be nerfed in human form). But your animal forms would be uber, in that they'd still retain your Monk immunities, Improved Evasion, SR, AC bonus, and move bonus. In important combats, you could buff yourself further with your Druid spells.

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    Default Re: Monk//Ranger Questions

    Your Flurry and Stunning Fist would go to waste
    Strictly speaking, you could use Flurry and Stunning Fist in animal form; it's just a suboptimal choice for most animals, since you have the choice of an iterative/flurry attack routine with unarmed strikes, or the animal's normal attack routine with natural weapons, and the natural weapon attack routine is usually better. But if you somehow end up fighting something with high hit points but low Fort save (admittedly, very rare), you might want to try for the stuns.
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    Default Re: Monk//Ranger Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Strictly speaking, you could use Flurry and Stunning Fist in animal form; it's just a suboptimal choice for most animals, since you have the choice of an iterative/flurry attack routine with unarmed strikes, or the animal's normal attack routine with natural weapons, and the natural weapon attack routine is usually better. But if you somehow end up fighting something with high hit points but low Fort save (admittedly, very rare), you might want to try for the stuns.
    ?

    When you Wildshape, you lose the attacks of your base form and gain the natural attacks of your alternate form. Animals do not have Unarmed Strikes or standard attack routines. Only humanoids and monstrous humanoids have them.

    Now, the Monk can make Unarmed Strikes with "elbows, knees, and feet" but there's nothing that implies that they can make it with non-humanoid hooves, claws, tails, horns, etc. I suppose you can make an argument that animals have knees, and thus a Wildshaped Monk could make attacks that way (somehow overiding the fact that animals forms don't have standard attacks of any type). But I'm not sure a DM would allow that, although it would certainly "look" hilarious if they did.

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    Default Re: Monk//Ranger Questions

    It was my understanding that any sort of creature could use unarmed strikes, with all the drawbacks thereof, and damage depending on the creature's size.
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    Default Re: Monk//Ranger Questions

    What does Ascetic Hunter do to a gestalt Ranger//Monk? I don't know what kind of damage a level 40 monk's fists do, but I'm betting it's fairly high.

    Of course, a PsyWar//Monk with Tashalatora is even better...

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    Default Re: Monk//Ranger Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    No, Two Weapon Fighting does not give extra Flurry attacks. You can use TWF and Flurry at the same time, but all the restrictions of both still apply; all your attacks get the TWF penalty and the Flurry penalty, and the TWF attacks are off-hand and (assuming you're using a light weapon) only get 1/2 Strength bonus, as usual for a light weapon.
    Flurry of Blows makes all attacks do full strength damage.

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    Default Re: Monk//Ranger Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by zaei View Post
    What does Ascetic Hunter do to a gestalt Ranger//Monk? I don't know what kind of damage a level 40 monk's fists do, but I'm betting it's fairly high.

    Of course, a PsyWar//Monk with Tashalatora is even better...
    Any DM who will let you take those kinds of feats in gestalt, and allows it to give you progression equal to twice your character level, obviously does not care about balance. If that type of thing is an option, you might be able to pull off a level 5 kobold with the divine minion template and master of many forms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Worira View Post
    Flurry of Blows makes all attacks do full strength damage.
    This is clarified in the FAQ, but to put it simply: All attacks gained from flurry of blows do full strength damage.

    Attacks gained from using TWF do not. TWF does not literally mean a weapon in each hand, it is simply using an additional attack per round, and that additional attack always does half strength damage.

    So a first level monk with TWF has three attacks with his fists, two of which gain full strength damage and one only gets half strength damage.
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    Default Re: Monk//Ranger Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by zaei View Post
    What does Ascetic Hunter do to a gestalt Ranger//Monk? I don't know what kind of damage a level 40 monk's fists do, but I'm betting it's fairly high.

    Of course, a PsyWar//Monk with Tashalatora is even better...
    that would be obscene, but i doubt a dm would allow it.
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    Default Re: Monk//Ranger Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by zaei View Post
    What does Ascetic Hunter do to a gestalt Ranger//Monk? I don't know what kind of damage a level 40 monk's fists do, but I'm betting it's fairly high.

    Of course, a PsyWar//Monk with Tashalatora is even better...
    Well, if we're pulling in splatbooks...
    Druid20//Ranger5/Beastmaster10/Warshaper5

    Pick up Obtain Companion, Natural Bond, MultiAttack, Companion Spellcasting and Natural Spell. Pick up 7 Fleshraker companions. Cast Venomfire. Now you and all of your companions do 20d6 acid damage on 3 attacks each for 20 hours a casting.

    Or you could, you know, not try to break the game.
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    Default Re: Monk//Ranger Questions

    Druid kind of defeats my purpose, because I pretty much wanted a full BAB monk that wasn't a fighter or barbarian, as those would be a little wasting.

    And I want a raptor :D

    Also, I don't know if this matters much, but the character is now a Changeling.
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    Default Re: Monk//Ranger Questions

    That was sarcastic, as I recently started a thread to complain about Venomfire. When someone brings up dual-progression feats or PrCs in gestalt I tend to get a bit snarkey.

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    Default Re: Monk//Ranger Questions

    That wasn't actually aimed at you
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    Default Re: Monk//Ranger Questions

    If getting an animal companion is a biggie for you, Wild Cohort is AWESOME. It basically gives you an animal companion for a feat. This will leave you free to use other classes if you want.

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