Balancing 3.5 by cutting classes

[Titanium Dragon]

Let's say I wanted to cut out all of the classes significantly more powerful than the classes in the Tome of Battle. What classes would I have to cut out? I know the following are must cuts:

Artificer
Archivist
Wizard
Sorcerer
Cleric
Druid

What other classes would the game need to lose to get rid of all of the "broken classes" and put the most powerful classes at the much lower (but more reasonable) ToB level?

[Kurald Galain]

Possibly the beguiler and erudite.

However, for the game to be balanced you'd also have to remove the overly weak to worthless classes, in particular the healer, fighter and monk.

[Riffington]

Er, once you take out the cleric and druid, the healer becomes an entirely reasonable class. It only sucks compared to them. And some people like playing medics.

Similarly, the fighter's tricks are actually pretty useful if magic isn't as available. A well-built fighter (or, especially, a fighter/barbarian) can easily go toe to toe with anyone from Tome of Battle.

Monks are on their own though.

[GammaPaladin]

Monks are ok if you cross class them and stuff them into a PrC.

[Animefunkmaster]

A well-built fighter (or, especially, a fighter/barbarian) can easily go toe to toe with anyone from Tome of Battle.

Possibly toe to toe with a swordsage, maybe a warblade (if he can down it in a single round) but not the Crusader.

I am of the belief that a fighter's best aspect is utilizing AoOs, reach, knockback (improved bullrush as well), dungeoncrasher and trips (even then magic items and magic support is very much neaded). Barbarians (especially the fenzied kind) should be shocktrooping - leap attacking- battle jumping- combat bruting- Supreme Power Attacking with a valorous weapon of vaulting.

I would like to submit the psion, psionic reformation, fusion, reality reformation to name a few things that might be considered a little too much.

UR Priest.

[FlyMolo]

Monks are ok if you cross class them and stuff them into a PrC.

i.e. Monks are okay, if they're not monks.

[SurlySeraph]

@^: Well, if they're not pure monks. Taking 11 levels in Monk for Greater Flurry can be worthwhile. However, there is no good reason that I know of to ever take more than 11 levels in Monk.

[shadeofblack]

I say ban broken spells instead.

[Talya]

If cutting classes led to balance, I'd have been a world class gymnast in high school.

[Indon]

What? Monks are awesome at being anti-magic in a world of Binders and Truenamers. Warlocks might be a bit tricky, but that's what having a high touch AC is all about.

The Bard is potentially more powerful than a ToB class if you specialize on their spellcasting, but that requires slightly more optimization than on the part of the Cleric or Wizard.

[Titanium Dragon]

I say ban broken spells instead.

I've tried taking this approach in the past, but it involves lists a large number of word pages long. Better to just ban the broken classes than have someone try to play one and be told that they can't do something they thought they could do after they've gained four levels.

[ladditude]

I sat let them be. CRs are built expecting a cleric/druid and a wizard/sorcerer. Cutting those will make you have to totally rework CR for everything in the book. Just let them play the game. And if they do anything to overpowered, hit them on the nose with a rolled up newspaper and shout NO!

Then just ban whatever cheese they try to use, when they try to use it. YOU ARE THE DM. Plus, being told no is what you get for trying to break the game.

[Titanium Dragon]

I sat let them be. CRs are built expecting a cleric/druid and a wizard/sorcerer. Cutting those will make you have to totally rework CR for everything in the book. Just let them play the game. And if they do anything to overpowered, hit them on the nose with a rolled up newspaper and shout NO!

Then just ban whatever cheese they try to use, when they try to use it. YOU ARE THE DM. Plus, being told no is what you get for trying to break the game.

Not really. The CR system is not expecting a cleric/druid and a wizard/sorcer; it is expecting things much weaker. If you toss a powerful magic user at an encounter of the "appropriate" CR they will crush it. I've had a group of 2 10th level characters, a fighter/rogue and a wizard, take out an entire tribe of goblins (including some magic users and class level goblins, one of which dispelled buffs on the characters) and 12 hill giants. While it is true it was more 6 hill giants and a bunch of goblins, some with class levels followed by 6 more hill giants, more higher-leveled goblins and the like, this was a party of two tenth level characters. They used up most of their power but they took them all out, and even killed a vrock.

I'm well aware I'm the DM; the point is to make it so people understand what I'm talking about. Hitting people on the head after they've been going on for a while, springing "secret rules" on them is lame. Banning classes makes the expectations clear, and lowers the maximum power level available dramatically.

[Kurald Galain]

What? Monks are awesome at being anti-magic in a world of Binders and Truenamers. Warlocks might be a bit tricky, but that's what having a high touch AC is all about.

Ah, here we go again. Nope, even if you discount the wizard and cleric, they're still the weakest core class by a long shot, and are even outclassed by one of the NPC classes. Removing the top tier doesn't magically make the bottom tier "not the bottom tier".

I've tried taking this approach in the past, but it involves lists a large number of word pages long.

Maybe. Depending on what level you're playing at, I don't think you need to ban more than a dozen of spells.

[Squash Monster]

Force Druids to take the shapeshift variant and ban all core spells.

I think that's the fastest way to get a semblance of balance.

PHII's spells might need banning too. In my experience, they're the strongest other than core.

[Devils_Advocate]

Um, ladditude, "just letting them play the game" is fundamentally incompatible with whacking players with a newspaper and shouting at them (whether metaphorically or literally) when they do something you disapprove of. You're suggesting combining two mutually exclusive approaches to DMing. Needless to say, that makes no sense.

What you seem to be suggesting is basically a bait and switch, where players are allowed to use options that the DM regards as overpowered, and then reprimanded for it. There are restrictions on what they're allowed to do, but they're secret restrictions that the players aren't told about ahead of time. There's, uh, really no reason to do that, unless you just like telling players, "No, you can't do that."

[Xyk]

You just cut out all the magic! That's a major part of Dnd. I can see balancing them through spell limitation, but not cutting them entirely. You'd be left with the ranger, and barbarian.

[Citizen Joe]

cut everything but cleric, wizard, fighter and rogue. Then change cleric to cloistered cleric.

[Indon]

Ah, here we go again. Nope, even if you discount the wizard and cleric, they're still the weakest core class by a long shot, and are even outclassed by one of the NPC classes. Removing the top tier doesn't magically make the bottom tier "not the bottom tier".

Firstly, the Adept technically outclasses _most_ of the core classes.

Secondly, unlike against core casters, the Tome of Magic classes don't have the tools to bypass the defensive capabilities of the Monk, meaning the Monk can function just fine as an anti-caster.

Considering that removing spell casters also causes most of the _other_ 'bottom tier' classes to stop being obsolete (with the arguable exception of the Samurai, because it's almost exactly like another non-magic class), there's no reason for the Monk to be an exception.

[Aquillion]

Secondly, unlike against core casters, the Tome of Magic classes don't have the tools to bypass the defensive capabilities of the Monk, meaning the Monk can function just fine as an anti-caster.

The Tome of Magic classes, for the most part, suck. They are never going to be reasonable magic alternatives, and being able to beat them is never going to be even a slight point of interest as a fringe-benefit to any class, never mind anybody's main role. The Tome of Magic classes just aren't strong enough to be worth having someone in your party just to counter (and that is assuming your DM throws a lot of tome of magic people at you constantly -- which is stupid, again, because many of the spellcasters PCs encounter are going to be monsters with sorcerer casting. The idea of an 'anti-wizard class' has never been viable for a core role.)

But even aside from the fact that the whole idea of an 'anti-ToM' class is comically absurd no matter what your setting, let's look at the list of banned classes so far, and see what's slipped through:

The psion. A significantly less powerful class than the wizard or codzilla... about on par with ToB, yes. So they're probably going to be the chief 'caster' in our new world. Oh, whoops, psions are auto-stilled and auto-silenced, so the monk's one viable offensive trick against wizards -- grappling -- doesn't work! In fact, if anything, banning the top-class casters has left the monk even weaker. How's them apples?

Wu-Jen. Wu-Jen are full casters with a list that overlaps with sorc/wiz a lot, but they might actually be allowable, since their list is much, much smaller. Again, Wu-Jen beat the ToM classes handily. Similarly, Shugenja.

Cloistered Cleric varient. There isn't really much argument for banning this; it's still powerful, but can't really beat the ToB without very specific cheese.

Oh, and don't forget -- we specifically left in the ToB, by making that the baseline. You mentioned that the Samurai remains obsolete because other classes do his job better? Monk, meet the Swordsage. The door is over there; try not to let it hit your ass on the way out.

[Indon]

The psion. A significantly less powerful class than the wizard or codzilla... about on par with ToB, yes. So they're probably going to be the chief 'caster' in our new world. Oh, whoops, psions are auto-stilled and auto-silenced, so the monk's one viable offensive trick against wizards -- grappling -- doesn't work! In fact, if anything, banning the top-class casters has left the monk even weaker. How's them apples?

Wu-Jen. Wu-Jen are full casters with a list that overlaps with sorc/wiz a lot, but they might actually be allowable, since their list is much, much smaller. Again, Wu-Jen beat the ToM classes handily. Similarly, Shugenja.

Cloistered Cleric varient. There isn't really much argument for banning this; it's still powerful, but can't really beat the ToB without very specific cheese.

Their inclusion is up to Titanium Dragon - I'm sure he'll be thankful that you've brought them up for review.

Oh, and don't forget -- we specifically left in the ToB, by making that the baseline. You mentioned that the Samurai remains obsolete because other classes do his job better? Monk, meet the Swordsage. The door is over there; try not to let it hit your ass on the way out.

No, I said the Samurai is obsolete because there is a class that has strong overlap of class abilities - the Swordsage does not have strong overlap with the monk. I in fact said, "almost exactly like," which the swordsage is not, no more than the Fighter and Paladin are like the Warblade and Crusader. I think both of them have room to stay, too, by the way.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

No, I said the Samurai is obsolete because there is a class that has strong overlap of class abilities - the Swordsage does not have strong overlap with the monk. I in fact said, "almost exactly like," which the swordsage is not, no more than the Fighter and Paladin are like the Warblade and Crusader. I think both of them have room to stay, too, by the way.

There is a variant Swordsage in ToB with no Light Armor proficiency and the monk's unarmed strike progression. That plus the wis-to-AC is about all that defines the monk, as all else they get is fast movement and a few bonus feats (and the ability to talk to squirrels, yay).

[Charlie Kemek]

here is Fax_Celestis' opinion of the class power ratings. You want them to be in the second or third tier. get rid of anything above or below.

[Aquillion]

Their inclusion is up to Titanium Dragon - I'm sure he'll be thankful that you've brought them up for review.

Even if Titanium Dragon manages to ban every single casting class outside of the ToM (which is just about what it would take to make anyone use them), beating them still wouldn't be an accomplishment.

[Squash Monster]

here is Fax_Celestis' opinion of the class power ratings. You want them to be in the second or third tier. get rid of anything above or below.

I have to take issue with this tier list. Wu Jen is a full caster with a perfectly serviceable spell list (it gets the whole cloud/fog line of spells, that's all I need), yet it's two tiers under the other casters. Good fighter builds are fantastic, yet they're two tiers under barbarian. And how is Psychic Warrior that high up? Isn't the general consensus that they are horribly lacking in power points?

[Aquillion]

And how is Psychic Warrior that high up? Isn't the general consensus that they are horribly lacking in power points?

They are, and this keeps them from being overpowered, but they can still do plenty with what they have. Many of their best powers -- Expansion and Psionic Lion's Charge, say -- can be quite adequate with little or no augmentation, costing nearly nothing. That, combined with the fact that they can also augment them when they need to be more than just 'adequate' in a pinch, is what keeps the class effective.

[Titanium Dragon]

First, thank you all for helping me out with this project. If I ever run another 3.5 game, this will be really helpful.

Second, I still have some questions:

The psion. A significantly less powerful class than the wizard or codzilla... about on par with ToB, yes. So they're probably going to be the chief 'caster' in our new world. Oh, whoops, psions are auto-stilled and auto-silenced, so the monk's one viable offensive trick against wizards -- grappling -- doesn't work! In fact, if anything, banning the top-class casters has left the monk even weaker. How's them apples?

Wu-Jen. Wu-Jen are full casters with a list that overlaps with sorc/wiz a lot, but they might actually be allowable, since their list is much, much smaller. Again, Wu-Jen beat the ToM classes handily. Similarly, Shugenja.

Cloistered Cleric varient. There isn't really much argument for banning this; it's still powerful, but can't really beat the ToB without very specific cheese.

Firstly, the Adept technically outclasses _most_ of the core classes.

And how is Psychic Warrior that high up?

These were all comments made in the thread. Thus, I must ask what abilities these classes have which make them potentially problematic:

Psion
Psychic Warrior
Wu-Jen
Shugenja (What book is this from?)
Adept
Cloistered Cleric (What book is this from?)

It seems those are the last of the really potent potential spellcasters, and I need to know what basically they're capable of and how much stronger than ToB classes they are (if at all). And is the Adept a viable class for a PC to play as? It sounds like you all think they're pretty potent.

[Tempest Fennac]

I agree with Xyk's comment. Perosnally, I'd say that replacing Clerics with Cloisered Clerics is a bad idea due to how redundant Cloistered Clerics are (eg: they get a worse HD and BAB and less armour proficiency in exchange for some extra skill points and Int based class skils which Wizards are better off taking ranks in. I'd say that Archivists are a much better idea if you want an academic Divine caster due to them using Int for spells while being able to use Knowledge ranks for Dark Knowledge checks).
Regarding Arcanists, are you sure it isn't just a case of DMs being unable to exploit their glaring weaknesses rather then the classes being overpowered? As far as Clerics go, my stance is that they need to be able to survive on the frontlines due to Cure spells only having Touch range (if they were shortrange, Clerics would be fine without heavy armour, but without it, they would be too vurnerable (any sensible group of enermies would focus on killing them ASAP, which would be much easier if Clerics couldn't fight while lacking AC).
In regards to Druids, making players use the Shapeshifting variant would probably be a good idea as it would eliminate the animal companion, and the Druid wouldn't be able to use Natural Spell (also, the Shapeshifting forms are less powerful then Wild Shape). Alternatively, trying to improve weaker classes would help (I tend to class it as making sense for magic to be more powerful due to spellcasters only having limited spellslots, and they aren't jsst picking locks, going berserk, tracking things or any of the other less fantastic class features which non-spellcasters have).

[Riffington]

Possibly toe to toe with a swordsage, maybe a warblade (if he can down it in a single round) but not the Crusader.

ToB classes are weak in various areas.
*Ranged Combat (a Barbarian/Fighter with a bow has twice the Crusader's speed; at least the swordsage or warblade could plausibly have some kind of one-round speed boost... but a cautious archer will still whump them).
*Mounted Combat (blah blah blah you only fight in dungeons)
*Grappling (most maneuvers won't work).
*If your group believes that buffs go on the warrior, not on the person with the buff spell, then buffs help a full attack much more than a maneuver.

Maybe your crusader beats tripmonkeys or uberchargers, but those are favored so much in the first place because they're so good against wizards (which are being taken out here anyway).

[EvilElitest]

I've tried taking this approach in the past, but it involves lists a large number of word pages long. Better to just ban the broken classes than have someone try to play one and be told that they can't do something they thought they could do after they've gained four levels.

Cutting classes only seems to be a rather limiting solution, the classes have been fixed, redone and balanced so many times on these boards it should be easier
That being said, would you cut war mage?

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