eldritch glaive for the wee folk?

[Stycotl]

what would be the reach on a glaive for a small and tiny warlock?

i am assuming it scales with creature size, but then i wonder...

just wanting to make sure i stat things correctly.

thanks, aaron out.

[Tokiko Mima]

what would be the reach on a glaive for a small and tiny warlock?

i am assuming it scales with creature size, but then i wonder...

just wanting to make sure i stat things correctly.

thanks, aaron out.

Relevent rules on Reach Weapons

Small creatures have the same reach as Medium characters, i.e. 10'. The rules for Tiny or smaller creatures wielding Reach weapons are a little less clear. I would think that Tiny creatures would have a 5' reach with a Reach weapon, but I can't find any rules to support that. Even smaller creatures likely gain no advantage from Reach weapons.

[Stycotl]

hmm, i forgot about small for some stupid reason. but tiny is the one that is stumping me at the moment. i can understand that smaller than tiny would gain no benefits. i think, unless someone can tell me otherwise, that i will use the 5' reach for a tiny reach weapon. thanks for the insight. aaron out.

[Stycotl]

i jst had a cool thought though. can you imagine a tiny creature wielding an eldritch glaive that was normal-sized? imagine for instance a grig or some other tiny, flying creature, with a glaive made of dark energy spinning around. in my head it looks something like a dancing weapon that is attacking darth maul-style. anyway, just a momentary brainstorm.

[Bag_of_Holding]

Reach weapons double the creature's normal reach. Since a tiny-size creature's natural reach is 2-1/2 ft., a tiny creature wielding an eldritch glaive should have a reach of 5-ft.

[Tokiko Mima]

Reach weapons double the creature's normal reach. Since a tiny-size creature's natural reach is 2-1/2 ft., a tiny creature wielding an eldritch glaive should have a reach of 5-ft.

They have a Space of 2.5' you mean. Their Reach is usually 0' which makes doubling it rather confusing. Fortunately, there's only a few tiny or smaller creatures capable of wielding weapons at all (Brownie, Grig, Celestial Monkies and maybe a few others..?)

[Stycotl]

now what if that tiny, weapon-wielding creature had monkey grip or a similar feat?

as i understand it, the glaive, or any spell effect for that matter, summons weaponry that is suitable to your size, and therefore your capability. so what if your wee grig with the glaive had the ability to tote larger weapons around, would he still be able to summon a larger weapon through the invocation?

[Bag_of_Holding]

They have a Space of 2.5' you mean. Their Reach is usually 0' which makes doubling it rather confusing. Fortunately, there's only a few tiny or smaller creatures capable of wielding weapons at all (Brownie, Grig, Celestial Monkies and maybe a few others..?)

Oops

[Tokiko Mima]

now what if that tiny, weapon-wielding creature had monkey grip or a similar feat?

as i understand it, the glaive, or any spell effect for that matter, summons weaponry that is suitable to your size, and therefore your capability. so what if your wee grig with the glaive had the ability to tote larger weapons around, would he still be able to summon a larger weapon through the invocation?

Well, you aren't even summoning a weapon persay, but making a melee touch attack as if wielding a Reach weapon. So I don't think you can resize the glaive per RAW, but I wouldn't have an issue with a player that wanted to do it assuming they took a -2 to the attack roll for every size category difference. Of course, there's a point of absurdity here too, as a Tiny fay wielding a gargantuan glaive of Eldritch energy is a bit hard to swallow no matter how much of a penalty is applied.

Note that Monkey Grip doesn't help at all in this case, because it simply allows you to wield larger weapons without affecting the amount of effort needed (i.e. a larger longsword can still be wielded with one hand instead of two.) It doesn't negate the penalty, and I don't think it has any effect on touch attacks.

[Indon]

magine for instance a grig or some other tiny, flying creature, with a glaive made of dark energy spinning around.

Well, this isn't quite the same (since it's not an eldritch glaive), but using the bloodline variant, the Titan bloodline grants you the ability to wield a Gargantuan weapon. Specifically, it gives you the ability to wield weapons as a titan would, and the Titan weapon-wielding specifies a Gargantuan weapon (Titans are Huge, so it's not nearly as good for them as it would be for, say, a titan-descended halfling).

[Stycotl]

interesting. i was thinking more along the lines of allowing them to summon or affect a weapon as large as they (by feat, racial ability, etc) were able to utilize. therefore, a pixie summoning and wielding a gargantuan axe would be pretty much out of the question unless that pixie could somehow use an actual gargantuan axe to begin with. would almost definitely have to be epic for that one to work.

not that too many small or smaller creatures have powerful build...

[tyckspoon]

now what if that tiny, weapon-wielding creature had monkey grip or a similar feat?

as i understand it, the glaive, or any spell effect for that matter, summons weaponry that is suitable to your size, and therefore your capability. so what if your wee grig with the glaive had the ability to tote larger weapons around, would he still be able to summon a larger weapon through the invocation?

It wouldn't matter even if you could; you're doing damage as per your Eldritch Blast, not based on a weapon size, and Reach weapons just double your reach regardless of how big the weapon in question is. At least, I haven't found a rule stating otherwise.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Small note: It doesn't matter what size weapon you are wielding, Eldritch Glaive does the same damage, and reach is only based off of character. So a Pixie wielding a Tiny Eldritch Gliave is exactly identical in every way to a Pixie wielding a Colossal Eldritch Glaive.

[Burley]

Here's the big contention, though: If you have a bow for a tiny creature, the range increment is lower than that of a normal sized creature. But, the Eldritch Blast has a set 60-ft range, since it isn't a weapon, but a spell-like ability.
I'd say that the Glaive isn't a weapon, but a spell-like ability, and therefore isn't subject to weapon rules...cause it's not a weapon.

Plus, I have a feeling in my gut that the description for the Eldritch Glaive in Dragon Magic specifically says 10ft reach... So, why would it change?

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Here's the big contention, though: If you have a bow for a tiny creature, the range increment is lower than that of a normal sized creature. But, the Eldritch Blast has a set 60-ft range, since it isn't a weapon, but a spell-like ability.
I'd say that the Glaive isn't a weapon, but a spell-like ability, and therefore isn't subject to weapon rules...cause it's not a weapon.

Plus, I have a feeling in my gut that the description for the Eldritch Glaive in Dragon Magic specifically says 10ft reach... So, why would it change?

Because your gut is wrong. It says that you wield your blast as a reach weapon. It doesn't say 10ft reach. It says wielded as a reach weapon. Which is why it is subject to weapon rules, because it is wielded as one.

EDIT: And at the very least the first price in your signature is wrong. Probably the others too.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Plus, I have a feeling in my gut that the description for the Eldritch Glaive in Dragon Magic specifically says 10ft reach... So, why would it change?

Now instead of reading in your intestines I opened Dragon Magic:

The attack is made "...as if wielding a reach weapon."

There is no mention of range, just the fact that it is treated as an attack by a reach weapon.

[Burley]

Well, there is a reason I said my gut, instead of my brain, or my eyes, or my book. I'm at work, and went by memory. It was obviously wrong. Didn't mean to start to pee in your cornflakes.

And, yeah, my signature is wrong, and I never noticed it. I was using the signature change field as the notes for it, and never re-added everything. I'mma changin' it....

Well, this was a great exercise in "Let's Let Burley Know How Wrong He Is Always." Well done, Class. Tomorrow's topic: "Burley Smells Of Goat's Milk and
Needs Hit With Sticks."

[Tokiko Mima]

It it makes you feel any better, I empathize with your gut reading. While Lord Silvanos and Chosen of Vecna's reading of RAW is absolutely correct, it doesn't make much sense.

A pixie wielding a weapon sized for titans does have the same reach as a pixie wielding the same weapon sized for pixies per RAW. But it does seem silly that that is true, doesn't it? I mean the weapon itself would be many times longer than the amount of reach.

I just wish I knew for a fact what reach tiny sized weapons have, and didn't have to base the answer on doubling zero.

[Stycotl]

Small note: It doesn't matter what size weapon you are wielding, Eldritch Glaive does the same damage, and reach is only based off of character. So a Pixie wielding a Tiny Eldritch Gliave is exactly identical in every way to a Pixie wielding a Colossal Eldritch Glaive.

well no freaking kidding it does the same damage. that was not my question. if you assumed it was, you read it wrong, or i miscommunicated my intention.

and yes, a tiny creature wielding a weapon has 0 reach. now, a tiny creature wielding a reach weapon, by rules, still has 0 reach. but that does not make sense.

if a pixie (yes, it's an exercise in imagination, not actual game mechanics) couls somehow wield a colossal halberd, it would certainly have reach, even though the rules say that it wouldn't (doubling, tripling, quadrupling a 0 reach still nets a 0 reach). but that makes no sense and any dm worth his weight in cheerios would houserule (again assuming that no one is batting an eyelash at the telephone pole-wielding grig) that it had reach.

i think i like the idea of just adding 5' each tim, but haven't actually taken the time to stat anything out.

aaron out.

[Stycotl]

there is precedence for what someone said about a spell effect staying the same size, no matter the caster's size. a pixie casting shelgarn's persistant blade still summons a normal dagger, as would an ogre mage or a storm giant, not larger or smaller versions of these.

now, that said, i would wager that eldritch glaive does not follow those rules, that it would be based off of the size of the weilder. shelgarn's summons a blade that wields itself. mage's sword on the other hand summons a blade to be wielded by the caster, and though it does not say it (as far as i could see in my short perusal), i would wager that 95% of dm's that have ever run into a size issue with this spell, or any like it, have ruled that it summons a blade sized to the caster.

so, back to the original size question (having nothing to do with EB damage...), would a caster with powerful build, or some other such allowance for larger weapons, summon a weapon sized for its *actual* size, or its capability?

what would a goliath summon?

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

well no freaking kidding it does the same damage. that was not my question. if you assumed it was, you read it wrong, or i miscommunicated my intention.

and yes, a tiny creature wielding a weapon has 0 reach. now, a tiny creature wielding a reach weapon, by rules, still has 0 reach. but that does not make sense.

if a pixie (yes, it's an exercise in imagination, not actual game mechanics) couls somehow wield a colossal halberd, it would certainly have reach, even though the rules say that it wouldn't (doubling, tripling, quadrupling a 0 reach still nets a 0 reach). but that makes no sense and any dm worth his weight in cheerios would houserule (again assuming that no one is batting an eyelash at the telephone pole-wielding grig) that it had reach.

i think i like the idea of just adding 5' each tim, but haven't actually taken the time to stat anything out.

aaron out.

The damage was just a side note. My main point was that weapon size doesn't effect reach at all. For Example, instead of talking about tiny creatures:

A medium creature wielding a Titan sized non-reach weapon has 5ft of reach. A titan sized creature wielding a Tiny sized weapon has a reach of 40ft or whatever size reach Titan's naturally have.

Reach is based on arm length, not weapon size.

There is also a statement made somewhere (the Rules Compendium? Sage Advice? I don't remember) that basically says Tiny creatures wielding reach weapons have a 5ft reach. Maybe it's in some MM, where they have a creature wielding a spear.

[Stycotl]

The damage was just a side note. My main point was that weapon size doesn't effect reach at all. For Example, instead of talking about tiny creatures:

A medium creature wielding a Titan sized non-reach weapon has 5ft of reach. A titan sized creature wielding a Tiny sized weapon has a reach of 40ft or whatever size reach Titan's naturally have.

Reach is based on arm length, not weapon size.

There is also a statement made somewhere (the Rules Compendium? Sage Advice? I don't remember) that basically says Tiny creatures wielding reach weapons have a 5ft reach. Maybe it's in some MM, where they have a creature wielding a spear.

if it were based on arm length there would be no difference in reach between a sword and a pike. niether can it be based solely off of the weapon. it is a combination of the two. that is why a titan wielding a nonreach weapon can threaten an area bigger than my house, even if wielding a human-sized dagger. similarly, once the titan gets his hands on a reach weapon, especially one that is sized for him, his reach grows.

[DrizztFan24]

So by the reasoning seen here would a character then take penalties for wield a Staff of Size Alteration and extending it up to 12'? I realize the reach is that of a reach weapon but I don't think that the weight or anything would become an issue. It was already mentioned this is a spell-like ability and you do not actually summon the weapon. Seems to me this would be more or an eldritch manifestation that looks like a weapon, and I am not sure that eldritch energy has a weight.

[Stycotl]

So by the reasoning seen here would a character then take penalties for wield a Staff of Size Alteration and extending it up to 12'? I realize the reach is that of a reach weapon but I don't think that the weight or anything would become an issue. It was already mentioned this is a spell-like ability and you do not actually summon the weapon. Seems to me this would be more or an eldritch manifestation that looks like a weapon, and I am not sure that eldritch energy has a weight.

agreed.

i suppose that for sake of the vision, i ought to explain what i am seeing in my head. when i mention a tiny creature wielding a large weapon, i am not picturing a pixie toting an orc double axe or a huge halberd or anything.

i am more picturing a ribbon cutter or so.

i am not sure of the rules for various other flexible weapons, such as the kusari-gama, and others, but in real life, those weapons would have effective reaches of between 10-20' for a medium creature, dependent upon the variety in use.

so, a grig wielding a halberd, or a spiked chain in my game will probably have a reach of 5 feet. whereas a grig wielding a kusari-gama will have a 10 foot reach (while small and medium creatures enjoy a 15-foot reach with the weapon).

now, back to the warlock issue. i would suppose that much of it does come down to whether it is a weightless energy weapon of eldritch force--or whether it materializes into an actual, metal form. i am too lazy to go look it up now. but i would assume the former, not the latter.

but that still does not really approach the extendable-ness of the weapon at all. i think i am going to think about homebrewing some invocations or feats or something that will allow the warlock some versatility with his weapon. along those lines, it's irritated me that it is specifically a glaive. i want to have the option to summon an eldritch greatclub or battleaxe if i decide to.

now, maybe for balance purposes, each of those would be a specific feat, so you can't go from spiked chain to glaive to greatsword to warhammer to suit your momentary needs. but then again, maybe that isn't much of a balance issue at all.

what do you guys think?

[Burley]

Using a different weapon shape wouldn't effect anything, since EldGla deals untyped energy damage, not slashing/piercing/bludgioning. I think it's perfectly legitimate to say that your Eldritch Glaive be a different weapon, as long as it's the same weapon every time. Otherwise, you've just created a MUCH stronger invocation.
The point of having a reach weapon, instead of close range melee, is to add difficulty to a great ability. Losing reach would be to much like mimicking the Soulblade, in my opinion.

And, I'll tell you that weilding the Eldritch Glaive is something of negligable weight. It's a light weapon, because it's a touch attack and Complete Arcane says that touch attacks are light weapons (weapon finesse!).
If it did have a weight, you'd have to worry about weilding a weapon that is probably too heavy for you (Warlocks have sooo little need for STR) to wield effectively.

I think if you wanted a Tiny or smaller creature to have a weapon that had the same reach as a medium creature, you'd have to scale the Invocation up to Lesser. It'd take a couple feats to do that with a material weapon, but those kinds of feats wouldn't apply to Eldritch Blast, which is why Blast Shapes exist in the first place. It'd be like combining Eldritch Spear and Eldritch Glaive together into one Blast Shape, IMO.

[Stycotl]

Using a different weapon shape wouldn't effect anything, since EldGla deals untyped energy damage, not slashing/piercing/bludgioning. I think it's perfectly legitimate to say that your Eldritch Glaive be a different weapon, as long as it's the same weapon every time. Otherwise, you've just created a MUCH stronger invocation.
The point of having a reach weapon, instead of close range melee, is to add difficulty to a great ability. Losing reach would be to much like mimicking the Soulblade, in my opinion.

And, I'll tell you that weilding the Eldritch Glaive is something of negligable weight. It's a light weapon, because it's a touch attack and Complete Arcane says that touch attacks are light weapons (weapon finesse!).
If it did have a weight, you'd have to worry about weilding a weapon that is probably too heavy for you (Warlocks have sooo little need for STR) to wield effectively.

I think if you wanted a Tiny or smaller creature to have a weapon that had the same reach as a medium creature, you'd have to scale the Invocation up to Lesser. It'd take a couple feats to do that with a material weapon, but those kinds of feats wouldn't apply to Eldritch Blast, which is why Blast Shapes exist in the first place. It'd be like combining Eldritch Spear and Eldritch Glaive together into one Blast Shape, IMO.

interesting thoughts. i have been toying with the idea of more powerful versions of the invocation, but haven't done anything yet. still waiting to see if it would work with various other abilities.

the question that i am still debating, is whether someone capable of wielding weapons larger or smaller than they should be able to, would be able to summon a larger or smaller weapon. would a goliath warlock be able to weild a larger sized glaive than a dwarf or a human? i realize that this affects absolutely nothing for the goliath's attack. reach would still be x2 (though, as i mentioned earlier, it should scale differently). damage, damage type, critical multiples, etc are all unaffected. so really the only thing it does for the goliath is summons a weapon that fluff-wise, is larger.

but, that does large things for everyone else. if the goliath, or anyone else with the potential to wield weapons unsuited to normal creatures of their size, could actually summon a larger eldritch glaive, then that opens doors for new builds and fluff ideas. it would then be possible, with the right allocation of feats, spells, items, etc, for that grig or pixie to be the hub of a whirling gargantuan glaive of uber-death. and while that is certainly not going to trump anyone's maximized wizard or crusader, just for the cool-effect alone, the players' jaws hitting the table when i unleash this npc, would definitely be worth the build.

anyway, that's about it. aaron out.

[Tokiko Mima]

Using a different weapon shape wouldn't effect anything, since EldGla deals untyped energy damage, not slashing/piercing/bludgioning. I think it's perfectly legitimate to say that your Eldritch Glaive be a different weapon, as long as it's the same weapon every time. Otherwise, you've just created a MUCH stronger invocation.
The point of having a reach weapon, instead of close range melee, is to add difficulty to a great ability. Losing reach would be to much like mimicking the Soulblade, in my opinion.

And, I'll tell you that weilding the Eldritch Glaive is something of negligable weight. It's a light weapon, because it's a touch attack and Complete Arcane says that touch attacks are light weapons (weapon finesse!).
If it did have a weight, you'd have to worry about weilding a weapon that is probably too heavy for you (Warlocks have sooo little need for STR) to wield effectively.

I think if you wanted a Tiny or smaller creature to have a weapon that had the same reach as a medium creature, you'd have to scale the Invocation up to Lesser. It'd take a couple feats to do that with a material weapon, but those kinds of feats wouldn't apply to Eldritch Blast, which is why Blast Shapes exist in the first place. It'd be like combining Eldritch Spear and Eldritch Glaive together into one Blast Shape, IMO.

You can do this with normal weapon for a very small charge. Just take any weapon and add the Morphing and Sizing property to it. Now it can become any weapon you want, any size you want. Morphing is worth (+1) weapon enhancement and Sizing is +6,000gp to the final cost.

The result is really limitless: You can make a weapon as big as you like of any kind you choose. Need a bridge over a gorge? Lay your weapon on it's side and command it to be a Gargantuan "board with a nail in it." Something stuck in your teeth? With an action or two, you're wielding a dimunitive spear, perfect for use as a tooth pick! Want to act like a hero from "Journey to the West?" You can have an infinitely extending staff, too!

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

You can conceptualize whatever you want.

I am talking about the game rules. In game, Reach is determined by your size, whether you are wielding a "reach weapon" and any feat that says it affect your Reach. That's all. The size category of your weapon only affects damage, not reach.

[DrizztFan24]

You can conceptualize whatever you want.

I am talking about the game rules. In game, Reach is determined by your size, whether you are wielding a "reach weapon" and any feat that says it affect your Reach. That's all. The size category of your weapon only affects damage, not reach.

The reason a reach weapon is a reach weapon is because the part that hits whomever you don't like is farther away from you and closer to them. With this glaive idea it seems the guy just wants to make a longer weapon, putting the edge closer to the bad guy. Didn't smiths do the same thing going from club, to sword, to lance, to ransuer, so on and so forth? It merely a question of whether or not you would be allowed to add extra haft to the weapon manifestation. When people talk about weapon size I am assuming they are talking about the whole weapon, haft, blade, anything else (clubs and chains).

[Burley]

interesting thoughts. i have been toying with the idea of more powerful versions of the invocation, but haven't done anything yet. still waiting to see if it would work with various other abilities.

the question that i am still debating, is whether someone capable of wielding weapons larger or smaller than they should be able to, would be able to summon a larger or smaller weapon. would a goliath warlock be able to weild a larger sized glaive than a dwarf or a human? i realize that this affects absolutely nothing for the goliath's attack. reach would still be x2 (though, as i mentioned earlier, it should scale differently). damage, damage type, critical multiples, etc are all unaffected. so really the only thing it does for the goliath is summons a weapon that fluff-wise, is larger.

but, that does large things for everyone else. if the goliath, or anyone else with the potential to wield weapons unsuited to normal creatures of their size, could actually summon a larger eldritch glaive, then that opens doors for new builds and fluff ideas. it would then be possible, with the right allocation of feats, spells, items, etc, for that grig or pixie to be the hub of a whirling gargantuan glaive of uber-death. and while that is certainly not going to trump anyone's maximized wizard or crusader, just for the cool-effect alone, the players' jaws hitting the table when i unleash this npc, would definitely be worth the build.

anyway, that's about it. aaron out.

Well, the way I've always looked at it, you find a weapon, increase it's size category and make it two-handed. Take the Scimitar, for instance. A small creature wielding a medium sized scimitar would have to wield it two-handed, making it a small Falchion, right? So, if you want your Glaive to be a larger size, and rule that it has a longer reach, make it two handed. (It will have absolutely no effect on the game whatsoever. No extra STR damage, not worries about keeping the other hand free, etc.) It's all just fluff that you'd HAVE to make a sacrifice in either a feat, an invocation, or a fat stack of gold.

@Tokiko Mima: For normal weapons, yeah. It's easy as pie (which isn't really easy, but this is easy). But, you can't add extra abilities onto a warlocks blast. There are invocations, a few prestige classes, and about a half-dozen items from the Magic Item Compendium. (Which I love, but tend to get a verbal/physical beating when I mention it...)

G'night.