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Thread: Replacing Level Adjustments
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2008-03-09, 12:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Replacing Level Adjustments
How much do you think it would improve balance if, instead of empty +ECL adjustments, you gave level adjusted classes actual hit dice in the subtype of their species. For instance, goliaths would get a level of monstrous humanoid. Aasimar and tiefling would get a level of outsider. That way it would still cut into any spellcasting and class features, but not leave them permanently lower character level than other players.
Edit: Then for added ease of design you could grant the levels over time, like Sean K. Reynolds "Savage Progressions" rules on the WotC site.Last edited by Talya; 2008-03-09 at 12:37 PM.
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2008-03-09, 12:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Replacing Level Adjustments
The problem you run into is that not all racial hit dice are created equal. Monstrous humanoid, outsider, and dragon hit dice are all fairly decent, for melee classes you lose little. At the same time, those races often have stat mods that make them a good melee combatant.
Humanoid is a pretty good balancing hit die, same with giant and aberration, because all classes are equally held back by those hit dice.
When looking at balance, you have to compare it to a character of the same level and general type to see what needs to be fixed. In the case of the theoretical monstrous humanoid goliath, compare it to a first level fighter. It loses a feat and a hit dice size, but the racial bonuses of goliath way offset those. There's just no way to reconcile the difference.
Half dragon would just be absurd.
I think you've got a solid theory behind this, but the races you're using it with kind of screw up any balance you're working towards."It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
- Thomas Jefferson
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2008-03-09, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Replacing Level Adjustments
Could give them all levels in monk...
Oh wait, forget it. My goal was to improve them, this is counterproductive.
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2008-03-09, 02:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Replacing Level Adjustments
That would be awful. By tacking on an extra level you doom them to never having 20 class levels before epic.
Just let them buy off the LA.
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2008-03-09, 04:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Replacing Level Adjustments
With the subtype levels in question having 3 high saves, 1/1 BAB, and 8 skills/level, is it really that bad to not have 20 levels in a class pre-epic? it's not like it would take them any longer to get 20 class levels than it does normally anyway. (remember, buyoff is an optional rule.)
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2008-03-09, 04:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Replacing Level Adjustments
Another idea I saw was to use an attribute point buy system and give races with LA's noticeably less points. I think it was in Rycanada's E6 rules.
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2008-03-09, 06:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Replacing Level Adjustments
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2008-03-10, 02:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- West Midlands, UK.
Re: Replacing Level Adjustments
I normally just nerf races with LA in order to get rid of extra HDs. Here's a few which I've thought up so far:
Catfolk (partially insprired by some 3rd Edition Rakasta updates):
+2 Dex, -2 Wis, +2 Listen and Move Silently, 40 ft. movement, Low-Light
vision.
Lizardfolk: +2 Con, -2 Int, +2 NA, +2 to Jump, Balance and Swim checks, hold breath for 4x Con.
Gnoll: +2 Str and Con, -2 Int and Cha, Darkvision 60', +1 NA, 1d6 bite attack.
I don't know if those are perfectly balanced, and I've only been doing this with LA 1 races, but the same principal could be used with creatures with higher LAs.Last edited by Tempest Fennac; 2008-03-10 at 05:04 AM.
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2008-03-10, 03:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Replacing Level Adjustments
I think Talya's idea is very good. In case of powerful racial levels you could just further increase the number of hit dice, or swap them for X levels in Outsider/Dragon/etc and the rest in Humanoid.
It could also let such characters play even at lower levels - you just have to take the assorted X levels in racial hit die before you can gain class levels.
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2008-03-10, 03:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Replacing Level Adjustments
Why not just use buy off? I mean, yeah, it's an optional rule, but it seems to be a good one to me.
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2008-03-10, 04:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Replacing Level Adjustments
How does buy-off work exactly? I've never heard of that rule (I know some races have Racial Class leves which are either really rubbish (eg: Gnolls) or limiting unless you want a particular class (eg: Monotaurs)).
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2008-03-10, 04:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Replacing Level Adjustments
Last edited by Tengu; 2008-03-10 at 04:18 AM.
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2008-03-10, 04:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Replacing Level Adjustments
Thanks. Do you think my idea is more practical, though? (That sounds a bit complicated, and it would put the character behind a bit).
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2008-03-10, 04:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Replacing Level Adjustments
I think your idea works for some groups, and doesn't for others (for example when the player wants to play a high-la race because that lets him be superhumanly strong/smart).
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2008-03-10, 04:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Replacing Level Adjustments
Avatar by Alarra
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2008-03-10, 04:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Replacing Level Adjustments
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2008-03-10, 04:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-03-10, 04:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Replacing Level Adjustments
Wait... this wasn't the assumed way it was supposed to work? Huh. I had no idea.
The javascript 3.5 character generator I always use ALWAYS does this. I say I want a level six centuar, it says "Okay, but your first four levels are in humanoid. Pick your two class levels."Avatar by K penguin. Sash by Damned1rishman.
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2008-03-10, 04:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Replacing Level Adjustments
I was mainly using that because some 3rd Editions Rakastas had that penalty (I didn;t want +2 Dex, -2 Con like other Rakasta variants due to wanting them to be different from Elves). I'll find a link concerning Rakastas, which are humanoid cats.
EDIT: http://search.freefind.com/servlet/f...hing+ALL+words .
(^) You're using Pathguy, right?Last edited by Tempest Fennac; 2008-03-10 at 04:58 AM.
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2008-03-10, 05:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Replacing Level Adjustments
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2008-03-10, 05:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Replacing Level Adjustments
That is a good point. Do you have any ideas for balancing out high LA creatures without making them much weaker? Racial Class levels are the only idea I can think of excluding buy-off.
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2008-03-10, 05:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Replacing Level Adjustments
Yes, the idea has come to mind to. However, there is, as several people already have noted, a difference between the racial HD. To me, they come in Tiers:
Alpha: Outsider and Dragon, the kings of HD
Beta: Magical Beast and Monstrous Humanoid, these are still good
Gamma: Animal, Elemental and Fey, these are slightly above average and have some redeeming qualities
Delta: Aberration, Giant, Humanoid, Plant And Vermin, below average HD, not terribly good
Minus: Construct, Ooze, Undead - these HD suck. Hard.
Now some of those subtypes have nice Traits (Constructs, Plants, Elementals or such). But these are not part of the HD. They figure into the LA, since they won´t improve your 14th racial HD, just be nice with whatever you have.
I don´t have hard and fast rules, but I´d say 3 Delta or Gamma HD would be worth 2 points of LA, 5 HD of Beta are worth 3 LA, and 2 HD of Alpha are worth 1 LA - meaning more LA the suckier the HD is.Also, thanks to Wayril for the nice Avatar!
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2008-03-10, 06:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Replacing Level Adjustments
To me, having a racial hit die puts me further behind, because if it's not a PC level, it's underpowered, and I can never ever ever get rid of it (Well... mostly). I like the buyoff rule, get to level 3, spend some exp, LA is gone, and you'll quickly catch up to your buddies because you'll be making more exp per encounter for a little bit.
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2008-03-10, 04:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Replacing Level Adjustments
To me, having a racial hit die puts me further behind, because if it's not a PC level, it's underpowered, and I can never ever ever get rid of it (Well... mostly).
The same is true of dragon, but with slightly less skills and a big hit die.Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
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2008-03-10, 04:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Replacing Level Adjustments
I actually like the idea of "Monster Classes" where you take levels in the monster and become more like it. This could also factor in people's ancestors jumping fences on creature types and such. I really liked the ones displayed in Libris Mortis for undead adventurers.
Libras D'lnar avatar by CSK
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2008-03-10, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Replacing Level Adjustments
I'm eager to see what 4e does with racial bonuses. The addition of a flavour "special powah" is nice, but I hope they measure out ability bonuses too.
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2008-03-10, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Replacing Level Adjustments
part of the problem also with adding Hd and saves for the blank levels is that many Monster templates with LA also have high con mods. So the higher con Mixed witht he lower effecive HD keeps the character in check with the rest of the party members.
As an example in a recent game of ourse a Half-fiend had a 22 con for +6 hps on the Die. even at 4 less Hd than the other members of the party he was still second in HPs (after a fighter).. If you gave him 4 outsider Hd for those levels thats +24 hp and 4d8 hp and +4 base attack and whatever saves. Which would have put the Half fiend with all D6 hps for his other class levels as our highest hp party member.
While La are not perfect there is a reason for them.
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2008-03-10, 06:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Replacing Level Adjustments
You should check out Playing Unusual Races, by Frank Trollman and K. The formatting is messed up at the moment, but it covers both balanced starting races, and this exact HD-for-LA substitution. Spoilered below for your convenience:
SpoilerPowerful Races:<br><br>Level adjustments don't work at all. Characters end up with skill rank maximums that prevent them from taking prestige classes appropriate to their level and they have hit dice that are low enough that they end up getting caught by spells like cloudkill that are designed to keep the henchmen out of a climactic battle, and so on and so forth. Furthermore, while the concept is busted, the implementation is even worse. Characters end up getting LAs assigned to them based on the sum total of their abilities (disregarding hit dice) and then having them added on to the hit dice (disregarding abilities). Monstrous creatures end up paying for rather minor abilities more than once and the end result is that characters who really aren't good at anything end up being counted as being higher level than "normal" characters who can outperform them in every way. That has to stop. In general, a monster that is built like a PC is about 1 CR better than one right out of the Monster Manual. CR really is supposed to equal Level, so we're going to be running with the races which are playable under that rubric:<br><br>Powerful Monsters As PCs, or “Beholder Mages That Don’t Make Us Cry.”<br>Monsters need to be able to be easy blends of character levels and monster stats. We know that its completely awesome to fight evil mastermind wizards that might just be beholders or giants or some other big monster, and its equally neat to play a cursed vampire warriors who’s trying to redeem his soul. Designers up to this point have attempted to stop players from doing both by making these options unplayable or “the suck”, so its time to right this wrong. <br>To start, let us be perfectly honest about two things:- We want to play monsters. <br>
- We know that the current ECL (Effective Character Level), LA (Level Adjustment), monster PrCs, and monster progression systems don’t work… like, at all. <br>
- Characters: This is the “as a character” philosophy, which makes monsters at a certain CR where they are perfectly suited to fight parties of characters at that level, but might overpower a weaker party or single character or be a total pushover to more powerful individuals or parties. Giants, gnolls, yuanti, goblinoids and other monsters who are expect to use PC-level tactics and equipment fall into this category.<br><br>
- Glass Jaws and Sucker Punches AKA Suckers: These monsters, which we’ll just call “Suckers” for their ability to suck and sucker punch. Usually they have an extremely powerful attack that can sucker punch a party, but they have some glaring weakness that means that they will go down extremely quickly if you exploit this weakness. Sprites, with their fabulously low HPs and powerful magic are a fine example of this monster. “Closet trolls” like trolls and Pouncing dire animals fall into this category because they are extremely dangerous in enclosed spaces (better than any three fighting characters of their CR), but they die easily if you can attack them at range and stay at a distance. <br><br>
- Puzzle Monsters: These monsters are in fact more puzzle than monster. They usually are unbeatable unless you know their one weakness, meaning that players who don’t know the right Monster Manual by heart usually die to these things. Classic examples from old editions of DnD like the Windwalkers would only die to a single spell from the spell list which you may or may not know or have on hand, but 3.x has from eased away from this level of arbitrariness. Now we have monsters like Swarms and incorporeal monsters who may be immune to all your normal weapon attacks (a killer for a party without a damage-capable spellcaster) and several kind of plants or oozes that seem to have random and crazy defenses when you attack them (like splitting into more monsters). <br><br>
- Awesome Because Its Awesome AKA Player Killers (PKs): Some Monsters are just built to make players cry. Dragons are the classic example, as they are traditionally CRed about two to four lower than they should be, and some other monsters have also been unofficially given the [awesome] subtype, meaning that players will always remember these monsters for being Party Killers. Angels, beholders, monsters with PC spellcasting, and drow typically fall into this category. <br>
- <br>
- Minotaur. Its Base CR is 4, and add +1 for being a PC. Its stat mods are (monster-elite array) Str 19-15=+4, Con 15-14=+0(rounded down) Dex 10-13=-2 (rounded) Wis 10-12= -2 Int 10, Cha 8-10= -2 Int 8-7=+0, for a total of +4 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Int, -2, Cha -2 Wis, which is perfectly reasonable. It’s a level 5 PC with skill rank maxes of 8 and 6 monster HD.<br>Frankly, it's a warrior class with a little bit of punch from natural armor, small stat mods from its size, and some fun but not good noncombat abilities. It's nothing to write home about as a 5th level character, and that's much more reasonable than the ECL 8 the MM would have you play it at.<br><br>
- Succubus: CR 7, +1 for being a PC. Stat mods equal Cha 26-15=+10(rounded), Int 16-14=+2, Wis 14-13=+0(rounded), Str 13- 12=+2, Con 12- 10= +2, Dex 12-8=+4 for a +10 Cha, +2 Int, +2 Str, +2 Con, +4 Dex.<br>It’s an 8th level character who is almost as good as a Warlock of its level. Generally, it’s a far better 8th level character than the than the ECL 14 the MM would have you pay. The fact that its abilities will never grow in power is offset by the fact that it has a high Cha, and so good DCs on its spell-likes.
- Medium Size<br>
- 30' movement<br>
- Humanoid Type (Gnoll subtype)<br>
- Darkvision 60'<br>
- +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma<br>
- Proficiency in Light Armor, Shields, Simple & Martial Weapons, and the Flindbar.<br>
- +1 level in the first Divine Spellcasting class a Gnoll takes.<br>
- Scent.<br>
- +1 Natural Armor.<br>
- Favored Classes: Ranger and Druid<br>
- Automatic Languages: Gnoll, Common<br>
- Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Blink Dog, Giant, Goblin, Infernal, Loxo, Orc, Sphinx, Sylvan, Worg.<br>
- 2 Starting Hit Dice (2d8 HP; 4 + Int Bonus x 5 skill points; +3 Fort Save; +1 BAB)<br>
- Medium Size<br>
- 30' movement<br>
- Humanoid Type (Goblinoid subtype)<br>
- Darkvision 60'<br>
- +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma<br>
- Proficiency in Light Armor, Shields, Shuriken, and all Rogue Weapons.<br>
- +2 levels in the first Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike class a Bugbear takes.<br>
- +3 Natural Armor.<br>
- +4 Racial bonus on Move Silently checks.<br>
- Favored Classes: Rogue and Ninja<br>
- Automatic Languages: Goblin, Common<br>
- Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Draconic, Elvish, Giant, Gnoll, Orc, Undercommon.<br>
- 3 Starting Hit Dice (3d8 HP; 4 + Int Bonus x 6 skill points; +1 Fort, +3 Reflex, +1 Will; +2 BAB)<br>
- Large Size<br>
- 40' movement<br>
- Giant Type (Cold subtype)<br>
- Low-light vision and Darkvision (60')<br>
- +6 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence, -4 Charisma.<br>
- +5 Natural Armor<br>
- Proficiency in Light Armor, Medium Armor, Martial Weapons, and Simple Weapons.<br>
- Favored Classes: Barbarian and Ranger<br>
- Automatic Languages: Giant, Common<br>
- Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarvish, Goblin, Halfling, Orc, Terran.<br>
- 4 Starting Hit Dice (4d10; 4 + Int Bonus x 7 skill points; +4 Fort, +1 Reflex, +1 Will; +4 BAB)<br>
- Large Size<br>
- 40' movement<br>
- Giant Type (Cold subtype)<br>
- Low-light vision<br>
- +12 Strength, +8 Constitution, +2 Wisdom<br>
- +9 Natural Armor<br>
- Proficiency in Light Armor, Medium Armor, Shields, Simple Weapons, and Martial Weapons.<br>
- Rock Throwing and Catching (a Frost Giant's rocks have a range increment of 120 feet).<br>
- Favored Classes: Fighter and Barbarian<br>
- Cold Immunity and Fire Vulnerability<br>
- Automatic Languages: Giant, Common<br>
- Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Aquan, Auran, Draconic, Dwarvish, Gnoll, Orc.<br>
- 10 Starting Hit Dice (10d10; 4 + Int Bonus x 13 skill points; +7 Fort, +3 Reflex, +3 Will; +10 BAB)<br>