When is LA worth it?

[Rutee]

As the title says. Every time I've seen races with LA, I ask the same question: In what sense is this worth it? The ability score bonuses are usually minor, and most sickeningly, the Abilities don't scale with the monster's class HD. You take huge negatives, compared to other characters, in BAB and hit points, and depending on what you're looking at enterring, have inferior skill points.

Templates tend to be a bit better, since you get abilities that scale to character level, but still feel a bit.. off. When is the LA /actually worth/ the abilities gained?

[Behold_the_Void]

It depends a lot on if the LA can be bought off as per Unearthed Arcana.

[tyckspoon]

Generally speaking, when you only have +1 or 2 LA and are allowed to use the buyoff rules. That will typically allow you to use the benefits of the template/race/whatever while they're still relevant and pay off the penalty when they're not.

Without buyoff, the only worthwhile LAs I've seen or heard of so far are the broken ones. There isn't a lot that hits a decent middle mark.. low LA constructs, undead, and elementals could be good for all the immunities you get from those types.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Gestalt.filler

[Xefas]

In games where you're 1) restricted to core and 2) really motivated to play a melee character, then sometimes a LA can work out to at least not be horribly crippling. If it nets you a CON bonus to make up for loss of hit points, and a STR bonus to make up for loss of BAB, then it won't be too terrible. I've seen, for instance, a Minotaur Fighter work out relatively okay. This is largely due to the crushing weakness of core martial characters- so taking away class features doesn't seem like such a blow.

But, in most cases, I just houserule something. If someone wants to play a gnoll for fluff reasons, I'll say "Meh, just take the stats for an Orc, take away Light Sensitivity. You're a gnoll." It's not like the NPC gnolls are gonna complain that he got a better deal.

[Tokiko Mima]

Sometimes it can be just barely worth it if the synergy between the classes is fantastic e.g. Pixie Warlock, Nymph Druid, Aranea Sorcerer, or Drider Cleric/Wizard/Sorcerer.

It's still a bit mechanically weaker, but if you have an overpowered class with RHD + LA weakening it, it might just balance out.

[Rutee]

Alright, another question then. If LA is usually so.. badong, why is it so high?

[Solaris]

Honestly, I think it's 'cause Wizards really didn't want monster PCs - or, at least, wasn't willing to put forth much effort into making decent rules for Core.
I do believe there was an OotS that comments on this at some point.

[SoD]

Sometimes it can be just barely worth it if the synergy between the classes is fantastic e.g. Pixie Warlock, Nymph Druid, Aranea Sorcerer, or Drider Cleric/Wizard/Sorcerer.

It's still a bit mechanically weaker, but if you have an overpowered class with RHD + LA weakening it, it might just balance out.

Just throwing Nymph Paladin in the mix. +8 to cha, and you get your charisma bonus to saves twice!

[Xefas]

Alright, another question then. If LA is usually so.. badong, why is it so high?

My guess is that Wizards of the Coast wanted to have amazing freedom and diversity with choosing a character's race, unlike anything that had been done in previous editions, but had no semblance of a clue as to how to properly make it work without retooling the entire Monster Manual. So, they threw LA in at the very end. You can tell it was never/only minimally playtested by things such as Mineral Warrior. Burrow Speed, +Con, DR 8/admanatine, and *more*? For +1 LA? Wha? I guess they assumed that each DM would handle it in their own way.

[The_Snark]

In a few cases, it can be worth it, usually when the monster has some quality that synergizes well with class levels. Monsters with high Strength and melee capabilities can work as characters (the aforementioned minotaur can be okay), especially if they can get abilities like flight out of the deal. A few examples of monsters that can work as characters, and why...

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-Minotaur. Low LA, and it provides you with some nice melee benefits, so it makes a decent melee character. The Strength bonuses synergize with melee classes, and unlike spellcasting classes (where adding one level of wizard at level 10 is pathetically weak), their power isn't exponential.

-Succubus. This one runs off Charisma. Before you have class levels, you have several Will save-or-lose attacks (with high save DCs), along with excellent mobility (teleport, flight, etherealness), good skills, and good saves. Advancement prospects are decent because of the very high Charisma; a succubus going into sorceror won't be very powerful, but they'll manage and still have high save DCs. Succubi who plan it right can do very well as blackguards, hexblades, and the like.

-Abyssal drake (Draconomicon). Another Strength-based monster, the drake is a dragon that's actually playable (as opposed to true dragons, who are always rather small and not very powerful for their ECL). Huge size, several natural attacks, enough Str and Con to make up for the LA, natural armor, flight, frightful presence (useless, but it isn't adding to the LA, so why not), a nasty poison, and a breath weapon (not a terribly powerful one, but area attacks for a melee character add versatility). Add levels of fighter, or barbarian, or a Tome of Battle class, and you're set.

-Justice Archon (MMIV). This one's debatably useful. The justice archon has the same ECL as the hound archon, which makes a terrible PC, but it's actually fairly good. High Con, permanent Magic Circle against Evil, solid damage reduction, and the ability to fly and teleport at will give them adequate defenses; they have okay Strength, but the real kicker is their ability to replace their own melee damage with that of their enemy's primary attack. That's an ability that will naturally scale with levels, and can be pretty good with Two-Weapon Fighting or some such.

-Ethergaunt (Fiend Folio). Right on the other end of the scale, the ethergaunt may or may not be broken. It has wizard spellcasting. Three levels lower than what a non-level adjusted PC would have, but it makes up for it; a few special attacks, resistance to arcane spells, what amounts to blindsight... and a truly massive Intelligence bonus; depending on what variety is used, it ranges from +12 to +20. And it specifies that ethergaunts with levels of wizard add their class levels to their racial spellcasting, so you can always get better at it.

-The Valkyrie (Tome of Battle). Good stat adjustments, outsider HD, some nice special abilities such as a damage-dealing gaze and flight, and the ability to use some maneuvers. As soon as they get class levels, they can start getting higher-level maneuvers.

-A few templates. The Dark template is a commonly used one; phrenic and half-fey can be decent if not spectacular, and I've always been fond of the shadow template (improved Dark template) for giving total concealment in any sort of shadow and fast healing. Generally, a template is only viable when it has a low LA.

LA is worth it when it adds to what the character can do already. That's why generalist monsters like dragons make bad player characters; it's like trying to play a fighter/ranger/sorceror. Most monsters are generalists with several disparate abilities; the ones that focus one one thing tend to make better PCs. Minotaurs focus on hitting people, ethergaunts focus on casting spells, succubi focus on espionage and messing around with people's minds.

[Tokiko Mima]

LA is artifically high to keep players playing the standard races. I think the official reason is that Level Adjustment is "a value assigned to a creature from a nonstandard race to help promote some equity among the player characters in a campaign."

It's a very fine balancing act and I'm afraid that WotC errs on the side of caution here virtually always. It doesn't help that if you compare a monster ECL to a same ECL full caster you will always come up short on the power end, whereas comparing them to a melee fighter makes the comparison a lot more even.

I almost always slightly reduce the initial LA of PC's that want to play higher LA monsters, and I allow LA buyout. But then I like players to play monster PCs, because I feel that it draws them into story if they have a hook like unusual/monster races provide. If you don't want monsters as players in your game all you need do is play by the RAW rules and don't allow LA buyout. You'd have to be a little crazy to play a monster under those conditions.

[Tengu]

I think the purpose of level adjustment is to stop people from playing a bunch of freaks - in older editions barely anyone played a standard race if other choices were available, because non-standard races were usually so good. In 3.x, they went on the other side of the fence, and in order to be a freak you have to suck it up and, well, suck (unless you're using the buyout rules or one of the few races/templates mentioned here that are worth their la).

Of course, there are still la+0 races that are extremely overpowered. Lesser tiefling/aasimar, whisper gnome, anyone?

[rockdeworld]

Without a system for mitigating the penalties of LA, I guess the answer is: rarely (except for the broken ones, as mentioned above).

As far as BAB and saves go, if they are covered by stat increases, that isn't really anything to worry about (a race with 0 racial hit dice and LA+1 that gives an extra +2 STR and +2 DEX is essentially the same as BAB+1, and CON/DEX/WIS +2 are essentially the same as a level up in most base classes). Extra abilities are where it really counts - by this I mean extraordinary abilities, supernatural abilities, and any other abilities listed under traits and monster listings. Constructs, undead, and elementals were mentioned above, to which list I might add Celestials, Fiends, and Half-Dragons. Liches and Vampires are basically competing for the best undead template - each has their power-ups, and each their weaknesses (the vampire has an LA 4 higher than the Lich, but gains a greater host of abilities). In all of these templates you see a variety of gained abilities outside of stat increases - even if there's not much variety between celestials and fiends

Take for example a Rakshasa. It has LA+7, 7 racial hit dice, and is effectively a 7th level sorcerer. This also means it can't be used in a campaign with an average party level of lower than 14, so the the sorcerer levels don't really even out the gap in spell-like abilities. On the other hand, a Rakshasa has a high AC bonus, DR, and SR - that sounds like "tank mage" to me. In most campaign settings though, the LA+7 pretty much kills the Rakshasa.

On the other hand, check out a Centaur. They're large and in charge - for fighter classes, and that +8 STR generally makes up for losing 2 class levels (I think the next-best you can get from LA 0 is +4 from an orc, but who wants that?). You might have a tough time on Escape Artist or Hide checks, but in exchange for that you get increased reach (automatic "reach" for short-ranged weapons), speed, AC, and even darkvision on the side - the +4 DEX makes up for losing 1 AC due to being big.

Maybe I'm a spin doctor (what do you think? ), but IMHO, stats usually have nothing to do with how good an LA is (how bad it is maybe), it's the abilities of a race that count.

[Rutee]

Of course, there are still la+0 races that are extremely overpowered. Lesser tiefling/aasimar, whisper gnome, anyone?

Human?

Still, I guess that makes more sense. I suppose that answers a lot about the why's, and what to do about it to make it more.. manageable. I never liked how DnD handled this.

[Chronos]

Basically, you look at what you'd get from that many class levels, and then look at what you'd get from the template or race, and decide which is better.

As an example where it's worthwhile, the Dark template (+1 LA) is good for rogues. That one missing HD costs you d6+con HP, 8+int skill points, half a die worth of Sneak Attack, and 1/2 Reflex, 1/3 Fort and Will, and it delays getting the selectable Special Abilities by one level.

On the other hand, the template gives you a total of +14 to skills, and it's to the two most important skills for a rogue, so that balances. The HP loss isn't balanced by anything, but rogues aren't supposed to be getting hurt much in the first place, so it's tolerable. The Sneak Attack reduction isn't much, and the boosts to stealth probably mean you'll have more chances to use Sneak Attack. And there's a dead level at 20 anyway, so you'll still eventually get all your specials and SA dice. In addition, you also get Hide in Plain Sight, which synergizes very well with the insane stealth skills you'll have, low-light and darkvision, a boost to your speed, and a bit of cold resistance. So you gain more from the template than you lose from the rogue level, overall, so it's worthwhile.

[ZekeArgo]

Human?

Damnit Rutee! Stop reading my mind!

[Tengu]

Human?

Heh. I think the extra feat is there for the same reason - so people would play humans. Because humans were crappy in previous editions and you played one only if there was no other race for the class you wanted.

It's funny how games that focus less on combat than DND (Exalted, anyone?) are often much more balanced mechanically.

[rockdeworld]

Wow! A lot of people posted while I was writing. Thanks for stealing my thunder guys (jk). To the second question, I have to go with the same answer provided by some of the others who said WotC doesn't really want you to play a monster. However, you could look at a monster's innate power level compared to a human's and determine LA that way. It would probably be the same as actual LA in most cases.

[Farmer42]

On the other hand, check out a Centaur. They're large and in charge - for fighter classes, and that +8 STR generally makes up for losing 2 class levels (I think the next-best you can get from LA 0 is +4 from an orc, but who wants that?). You might have a tough time on Escape Artist or Hide checks, but in exchange for that you get increased reach (automatic "reach" for short-ranged weapons), speed, AC, and even darkvision on the side - the +4 DEX makes up for losing 1 AC due to being big.

While I agree that Centaurs are nice, they, unfortunately, are Large [Long] creatures, and therefor don't get reach. Otherwise they're a great monster race.

[rockdeworld]

My mistake. I thought the "Space/Reach 10/5" meant reach is 5 longer than normal, but I can see now it doesn't. I'd make the same arguement though, even minus reach.

[Farmer42]

Oh, I agree fully. They're loads of fun to play. Especially when you go to get your horseshoes of spider-climbing.

[The_Snark]

Heh. Forcing SAN checks in a game that doesn't even have them!

Anyway... the real problem isn't necessarily that Wizards wants to discourage people from playing monsters. It's just that monsters often have a spread of abilities that simply won't make for a good player character. They're designed as opponents first, with playability tacked on as an afterthought. In my admittedly small experience homebrewing, designing a monster that is playable and makes a good PC actually involves thinking a little differently than making a monster that nobody can play. Most monsters aren't specialists because they're not designed to be as deadly as they possibly can; they're designed to provide a challenge without being incredibly lethal or unbeatable in their fields, whereas PCs are more suited to trying to be as powerful as they can in their chosen specialty.