ToB vs Batman

[asphen fox]

What maneuvers and stances could aid a Martial Adept in killing Batman in a One on One fight (I've played Batman already so I know what he's capable of but we'll take in consideration that this particular batman is not as experienced as me.)?


*Note: I know what stuff makes Batman broken so I'd say I'm pretty much experienced already (e.g. Contingencies, Celerity, Glitterdust, Mordenkeinen's Disjunction).

[Talic]

No.

Just... No.

If the batman is played with any level of intelligence, then the saying of how to beat him with a melee goes like this:

Melee Guy: Is that a spellcaster? How do I beat her?

Melee Gal: With a stick, while she sleeps. But with a book, and her spells? That mage cannot be beaten.

Brownie for the identifier of the loose movie reference.

[AslanCross]

Hi James. What level? I'd focus on Diamond Mind in general to get chances to reroll saves, as well as Iron Heart for Iron Heart Surge. Stone Dragon's Mountain Hammer series will allow you to blow past any Stoneskin he raises, but there are many other things he might pull on you. The problem is he might resort to miss chance spells (blur and the like, or even worse, he uses baleful blink on you. (Thankfully you can use Iron Heart Surge to dismiss this or save with one of Diamond Mind's "Concentration-to-save" counters.

Remember also that Batman will most likely have teleport prepared. If you don't kill him instantly, celerity+teleport will save his skin and you wouldn't be able to do a thing about it.

Also, he could just gate in a Pit Fiend and pelt you with controlling spells while the Pit Fiend tears you a new one.

This is of course assuming you're at Lv 20.

[asphen fox]

You have to keep in mind though that ToB characters are more or less like spellcasters due to their martial maneuvers and stances. Some maneuvers actually mirror some of the spells (well... sort of) and they also have very nice counters (diamond mind's Diamond defense, action before thought, moment of perfect mind)

[Azerian Kelimon]

A ToBBer is screwed, period. The only one that has an even remote chance at blasting a wizard would be a Swordsage, and only because Balance In The Sky let's them fly without any help and they have shadow jaunt. The rest will lose, because they won't be able to get away from the spells and close to the wizard.

[AslanCross]

Yes, we know that ToB guys are close to spellcasters, but Batman is still Batman. ToB characters just don't get to pull off something like celerity-time stop-gate-whatever even at Lv 20.

[Grey Paladin]

Stalker in the Dark or a one hit KO are your only options.

[Talic]

But those defenses run out. And there's little the melee character will do to actually HURT the caster. Caster just has too many options for escape, contingency, and evasion, and the ToB, too few. The Batman sets the tempo, and thus, wins the match.

Superior resources, superior diversity, superior power.

[Rachel Lorelei]

Maneuvers and stances? The Thicket of Blades stance is about it; it prevents them from 5'-stepping (and maybe Tumbling, depending on interpretation) out of your reach. I guess landing a Feral Death Blow might kill them if they're not prepared for that sort of thing, or doing massive damage with Diamond Nightmare Blade.

You want the Thicket of Blades stance (Devoted Spirit 3), and the following feats: Improved Trip, Stand Still, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Protection, and maybe Pierce Magical Concealment (which requires Blind-Fight). That way, you're almost guaranteed to hit the mage, the mage can't 5' step or tumble (depending on interpretation) away without provoking an AoO (which you respond to with Stand Still or tripping, keeping her in place), the mage can't cast defensively.

You need to get close and then ready an action vs. the mage spellcasting, or she can get away with a swift-action or Quickened spell. If she has the Abrupt Jaunt alternate class feature from the PHB II, even that might not help.

[AslanCross]

I agree, Feral Death Blow or Diamond Nightmare might be your only chances of one-hitting him. Mountain Tombstone Strike might work if his CON is low. Apart from that I don't think any of the other disciple capstone maneuvers will be effective.

[Talic]

Tell ya what. ToB counter to :

Celerity, Timestop, Summon Monster 9, Summon Monster 9, Ethereal Jaunt

??

EDIT: Note, Wizard HP at level 20 should be around 150, minimum. One hit kill can be exceedingly difficult.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Actually, thicket won't help. They can still dimdoor out of it, and it's over. Methinks a Swordsage that takes a maneuver giving PrC and one level of warblade for Iron Heart Surge will have a better chance. Being able to fly on your own and having shadow jaunt is no joke. Plus, they can become invisible and more.

[Rachel Lorelei]

Actually, thicket won't help. They can still dimdoor out of it, and it's over.

That's what the Mage Slayer feat is for. They can't cast defensively, and if they don't, they provoke an AoO (and therefore have their spell disrupted). The readied action is in case they try a quickened Dimension Door/Teleport/etc.

[Talic]

A couple of assumptions:

1) You get in melee range.

2) The mage doesn't have a contingent translocation spell (I usually do, contingent to one of two things. My unconsciousness, if I expect casters, or me uttering the word "fluffy" otherwise... As you can speak as a free action, out initiative sequence.

[namo]

You want the Thicket of Blades stance (Devoted Spirit 3), and the following feats: Improved Trip, Stand Still, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Protection, and maybe Pierce Magical Concealment (which requires Blind-Fight). That way, you're almost guaranteed to hit the mage, the mage can't 5' step or tumble (depending on interpretation) away without provoking an AoO (which you respond to with Stand Still or tripping, keeping her in place), the mage can't cast defensively.

You need to get close and then ready an action vs. the mage spellcasting, or she can get away with a swift-action or Quickened spell. If she has the Abrupt Jaunt alternate class feature from the PHB II, even that might not help.

Combat Reflexes too.

Against Abrupt Jaunt, you use the nifty Shadow Cloak (Drows of the Underdark) that allows 10' immediate teleporting. Lockdown can actually tear apart many wizards. If the wizard has Shapechange cast, the matter is of course different...

[Darrin]

Actually, thicket won't help. They can still dimdoor out of it, and it's over. Methinks a Swordsage that takes a maneuver giving PrC and one level of warblade for Iron Heart Surge will have a better chance. Being able to fly on your own and having shadow jaunt is no joke. Plus, they can become invisible and more.

Setting Sun has a counter to dimension door: Mirrored Pursuit. Contingency + Teleport is more troublesome, although you can try threatening to Iron Heart Surge the sun and gravity.

The best counter for Batman is probably going to be a Crusader/RKV in the Immortal Fortitude stance, although he'd still be vulnerable to Slay Living/Finger of Death... but his Fort save is going to be awfully high. If the Crusader/RKV manages to land just one White Raven Hammer on Batman, it's all over for the mage. He can just burn turn attempts to keep stunning, no save.

A RKV/Shadow Pouncer might also do well: standard action to Iron Heart Surge or White Raven Hammer, move and swift actions to shadow pounce. Combine with Invis, Incorporeal, and Hide in Plain Sight, and Batman may have trouble just finding his opponent.

Batman still has Contingency+Teleport, but that's the "Escape" button, not the "Win" button. Celerity+Time Stop is still the "Win" button.

[Kurald Galain]

Batman still has Contingency+Teleport, but that's the "Escape" button, not the "Win" button. Contingency+Time Stop is still the "Win" button.

Time Stop is too high-level for contingency.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Craft contingency/craft contingent spell?

[Darrin]

Time Stop is too high-level for contingency.

Sorry, I meant Celerity+Timestop.

[Frosty]

The way is to have a wizard cohort with you.

[BadJuJu]

Tell ya what. ToB counter to :

Celerity, Timestop, Summon Monster 9, Summon Monster 9, Ethereal Jaunt

??

EDIT: Note, Wizard HP at level 20 should be around 150, minimum. One hit kill can be exceedingly difficult.

The defense for the cheese spells? Take one of your big D20's, I know most gamers have one. If you dont have one, use a hand full of little ones. You rattle them all in your hand for a second and then throw them on the table. When your opponent looks at them, hit them with your chair and then hide their spell list. Viola, I beat Batman...

[Tyger]

Melee Guy: Is that a spellcaster? How do I beat her?

Melee Gal: With a stick, while she sleeps. But with a book, and her spells? That mage cannot be beaten.

Brownie for the identifier of the loose movie reference.

Knight's Tale. I like my brownies with milk please.

That said, to the OP, yeah, melee classes vs. a prepared wizard are pretty one sided affairs. Of course, all things being equal (which they never are) it is possible that a ToB character could kill a equal level wizard Batman... not too damned likely, but possible.

[streakster]

A diamond mind swordsage nova - combine sudden leap, moment of alacrity, moment of perfect mind - I forget all the details, they're over at the CharOp Boards, but it's two full attacks against Batman. Course, if he survives, you've lost.

Other than that, counters for saves. Might try rogue/Sowrdsage shadow hand, and hope that he doesn't have much to beat invisibilty while hitting him with Mountain Tombstones and Five Shadow strikes. See the Clash of the nine swords part two thread for a good example. That build focuses on DEX and WIS.

But yeah, you're gonna lose against an optimized, well-played Batman. Good luck.

EDIT: BTW, Idea number two? He's gonna have counters for invisibility. Just didn't want to give false hope there.

[Tokiko Mima]

In order for a high level wizard to lose a combat against anything (even another high level wizard), the wizard has to make a mistake. If the wizard is Batman, it won't make a mistake.

I love ToB, and while Warblade is probably the strongest published melee base class, it's still not close to the maximum power a wizard reaches. If it was, then Warblade would be way, way, way broken.

[Blue Paladin]

The defense for the cheese spells? Take one of your big D20's, I know most gamers have one. If you dont have one, use a hand full of little ones. You rattle them all in your hand for a second and then throw them on the table. When your opponent looks at them, hit them with your chair and then hide their spell list. Viola, I beat Batman...

Classic misdirection. How very ninja! I approve.

Best way I can think of is Shadow Stride/Blink next to them while under a Antimagic Field. Smack him with White Raven Hammer (lvl 8) or Irresistible Mountain Strike (lvl 6). Finish him with maneuver(s) of choice in round two.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Classic misdirection. How very ninja! I approve.

Best way I can think of is Shadow Stride/Blink next to them while under a Antimagic Field. Smack him with White Raven Hammer (lvl 8) or Irresistible Mountain Strike (lvl 6). Finish him with maneuver(s) of choice in round two.

Problem: Shadow stride=Supernatural=not happening while AMFed.

Problem 2: You also need thicket of blades and the no tumble ruling to prevent him from just getting out of the way.

Problem 3: He will be 30ft up in the air, so unless you can non-magically (non-supernaturally) fly, best case, you are both going to fall down, then he's going to tumble/withdraw out of the field and go flying again.

[Dhavaer]

Problem: Shadow stride=Supernatural=not happening while AMFed.

The teleportation maneuvers aren't supernatural, for some reason.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

The teleportation maneuvers aren't supernatural, for some reason.

Problem: I want to punch whoever made that decision. Is flying also Extraordinary?

[Frosty]

Thicket of blades prevents ALL movement. I've not played with a DM that rules it any other way. And yes, you want to be able to fly naturally. That's why you should be a Raptoran. Gotta love natural flight.

[Chronos]

Swordsages get Hide and Move Silently as class skills, no? I only know of one thing available to a Batman that can beat good stealth skills, the Mindsight feat combined with some means of getting telepathy (typically a Mindbender dip). And Swordsage probably has some sort of counter to that, too.

Of course, stealth by itself gets you a draw at most, and you want a win. So you need to be able to either do something to the wizard without blowing your cover, do something that will win you the fight before he can react, or do something that will let you hide again before he can react. My preferred method for "attacking" a wizard is to mess with his components and/or magic items: Steal, sunder, or shatter his component pouch, etc. I don't know how capable Swordsages are at this, though.