[3.5] Strongest level one character?

[Chymist]

I have read a bunch of articles about how wizards, clerics, and druids are so uber strong, but everyone seems to assume a level 20 character. I was wondering who would be the best at level 1. It seems to me that a druid with a particularly powerful animal companion might be the best choice, or maybe a rogue with that extra sneak attack damage.

What do you guys think?

[monty]

Anyone capable of making a DC 25 Knowledge (planes) check.

[Ned the undead]

maybe a rogue with that extra sneak attack damage.

What do you guys think?

Well a rouge would have a damn hard time getting that flank all by his lonsome.
Ooh ooh! UMD+ Wand of SM 1= It's all good.

[Arros Winhadren]

Pun-Pun, because he can make himself level one whenever he wants.

Seriously though, I would probably go with Human Fighter because I think they get the most from level one.

[monty]

Pun-Pun, because he can make himself level one whenever he wants.

Seriously though, I would probably go with Human Fighter because I think they get the most from level one.

You can create Pun-Pun at level 1 anyway. That's what I was hinting at in my previous post.

And he did say strongest. He didn't restrict that to normal builds.

[Epinephrine]

ToB stuff tends to be a bit front loaded, the warblade for example can put out a ton of hurt relatively early.

[monty]

And for the record, the top classes aren't only strong at level 20. Druids see a major jump in power when they get Wildshape at level 5, clerics usually go at 7 when they get Divine power, and wizards don't have a particular "win" level so much as an exponential power curve.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Orc Barbarian. We have one in our current game, and everything he touches dies, with a roll of a 1 or not. I think his min damage when un-raged is 10. Average would be around 15.

[ericgrau]

Pun-Pun, because he can make himself level one whenever he wants.

Seriously though, I would probably go with Human Fighter because I think they get the most from level one.

+1 human fighter. Or if you only fight 1-2 encounters per day then a raging barbarian would work better. Plus remember that you can't afford heavy armor at level 1, so the fighter loses an advantage there. The fighter is basically ahead a feat and behind a rage. But that feat is good for all encounters in a day.

I'd say:
human fighter 1
feats: weapon focus, toughness, toughness OR point blank shot, rapid shot and precise shot
EQ: scale mail, greatsword, longbow, etc.
Note that this is very level 1 focused. A barbarian build would be similar.

[Myatar_Panwar]

+1 human fighter. Or if you only fight 1-2 encounters per day then a raging barbarian would work better. Plus remember that you can't afford heavy armor at level 1, so the fighter loses an advantage there. The fighter is basically ahead a feat and behind a rage. But that feat is good for all encounters in a day.

I'd say:
human fighter 1
feats: weapon focus, toughness, toughness OR point blank shot, rapid shot and precise shot
EQ: scale mail, greatsword, longbow, etc.
Note that this is very level 1 focused. A barbarian build would be similar.

No cleave? At level one a strength based fighter is probally killing everything he hits with one strike anyway, so cleave + power attack seem a must.

[monty]

+1 human fighter. Or if you only fight 1-2 encounters per day then a raging barbarian would work better. Plus remember that you can't afford heavy armor at level 1, so the fighter loses an advantage there. The fighter is basically ahead a feat and behind a rage. But that feat is good for all encounters in a day.

I'd say:
human fighter 1
feats: weapon focus, toughness, toughness OR point blank shot, rapid shot and precise shot
EQ: scale mail, greatsword, longbow, etc.
Note that this is very level 1 focused. A barbarian build would be similar.

I know you didn't just put "toughness" there. I'm sure you meant "anything else."

[Chronos]

Frankly, most level 1 characters suck. The spellcasters can be spectacular, but only a couple of times per day, the meatshields are still one axe-crit away from being dropped to the ground in a bloody heap, and the skillmonkeys have nearly as much chance of a trap going off in their faces as they do of disarming it.

There are a few, though, which don't suck. In no particular order:

1: The druid. His animal companion is nearly as good as a fighter, at this level, but if that axe-wielding orc gets lucky, he can still just call up another one the next day. Plus, of course, a smattering of spells, and a club or a sling.

2: The warlock. He's sort of like a spellcaster, except that his "spells" don't run out. With Summon Swarm as his invocation, he deal a guaranteed 1d6 damage to any four enemies adjacent to each other, plus force them to make a couple of saves or suffer other bad effects. Or he can choose something like Baleful Utterance, which is useful in and out of combat, and do 1d6 damage per round as a ranged touch with his Eldritch Blast.

3: The dragonfire adept, cousin to the warlock. He doesn't get Summon Swarm on his invocation list, but his breath weapon affects multiple targets, so he doesn't need it as much, leaving him free to take some other invocation.

4: The incarnate. With Dissolving Spittle as one of his two shaped soulmelds, he can do 2d6 damage every round as a ranged touch attack, plus doing whatever he gets from his other meld, and he can change those every day if he wants (if, for instance, you don't anticipate combat that day).

Of these, only the druid scales well: At higher levels, the invokers start suffering from their lack of versatility compared to standard spellcasters, and meanwhile the spellcasters are getting enough spells that running out becomes less of an issue. And incarnates never really get access to anything they didn't have at first level, beyond chakra binds which are usually inferior to the items they replace. The druid, meanwhile, keeps all of the power of a full spellcaster, and fights well in melee thanks to Wildshape, and also has the animal companion, which never really becomes entirely redundant.

[Edea]

Hmm, aren't Diplomancers possible at Level 1?

[expirement10K14]

I'd say the limitless attack infinite damage dragonfire adept.

[Rei_Jin]

I personally would go with a halfling rogue. At level one, you can sneak attack everything to death, you've got a pretty good AC thanks to a high dex and small size, you've got a bonus to all your saves, you don't need to wear armor, and you can talk your way out of a multitude of situations.

I'd probably take stealthy as my feat, and proceed to hide constantly, stealth killing everything with throwing daggers (+1 Racial bonus to hit with throwing weapons, +1 due to size, good attack bonus from high dex) and using skills like Tumble to keep yourself out of trouble.

[Arbitrarity]

Crusader. 10+CON HP, with 5 steely resolve, heals 2 hp to self or ally within 10 feet on every attack, can get Stone Power for even more temp hp, also can heal 1d6+1 generally 1/encounter, assuming certain manuver/stance choice.

Superb for healing, great for melee. Scales decently

Also, beguiler. 4-5 1'st level spells/day, from a crazy large list, including sleep, color spray, and many more. Much stronger than a sorceror, probably better than a wizard, at that level (though few buffs, like enlarge person, and only modest utility). Scales well, good role as skills, face, and support caster.

Druid, of course.

[Jack_Simth]

Ignoring cheats like Pun-Pun....

Wizard. Human. Take Precocious Apprentice (Complete Arcane) for either Flaming Sphere or Scorching Ray, and the Fiery Burst reserve feat. If you include Flaws, you can also take Alacritous Cogitation (Complete Mage) so that you can get off Sleep on the first round. You can also do this with a Sorcerer, if you like, although he doesn't have that bypass available for the casting time that Alacritous Cogitation gives the Wizard.

Goblin sneak (virtually any stripe of sneak). Small, so +4 Hide. Goblin, so +4 Move Silently. Hide and Move Silently as class skills. If flaws are permitted, pick up Skill Focus (Hide) and Skill Focus(Move Silently), plus Stealthy. Can't hurt what you can't find.

[ericgrau]

1: The druid. His animal companion is nearly as good as a fighter,

Ugh, I hate it when misconceptions get recycled. Maybe if you can afford barding and (at later levels) a full set of gear for the animal companion this would be so.

Let's take the popular riding dog as an example:
about the same HP
similar AC: Assumes the fighter has the measly recommended starting wealth, which also means the druid can't cheese his dog with barding
lower AB: especially if the fighter grabs a feat. A +3 to +4 difference wouldn't be unreasonable. So if the dog hits 50% of the time, the fighter hits 65%-70% of the time and lands 30-40% more hits! (if a wolf hits 10 times out of 20, the fighter hits 13-14 times, hence the 30-40% not 15-20%)
half the damage compared to a level 1 fighter. So even if he managed to land his hits, he'd still be miles behind.

The wolf has similar stats, btw. A riding dog is just a way for a druid to get a wolf with extra cheese.

Outside of 1-2 encounters per day, a lone monster, and a failed save against the caster's spell (or a tightly huddled band and even more failed saves), the martial classes are much ahead at early levels. Though casting a 2nd level spell as well... dang talk about front-loaded. That would change things a great deal, though the caster still won't last long without rest.

A rogue is almost never the optimum for combat btw. They're way too fragile. Plus at first level you need the sneak attack damage just to equal a greatsword. That's why rogues also have skills to balance them out.

[Jack Zander]

Hmm... wizard who sells his spellbook for a pack of attack dogs?

[Tengu_temp]

I know you didn't just put "toughness" there. I'm sure you meant "anything else."

A level 1 build. Toughness is worthwhile at level 1. Learn to think in specific cases, not only general rules.

Anyway, my vote would be Warblade or Crusader. Or Druid with a wolf familiar.

[ericgrau]

No cleave? At level one a strength based fighter is probally killing everything he hits with one strike anyway, so cleave + power attack seem a must.

Power attacking for only +2 damage isn't worth the feat. It's not really even +2 damage, you lose some damage to misses. So you gain what, 10-15% more damage on top of your 10ish? Nah, pass. How about 25% more HP? PA sounds good at level 2 though.

Not every hit drops a monster, and even when it does there often isn't another baddy next to him. So you don't get that many extra cleave attacks. Heck, hitting +10% more times with weapon focus might easily give you more extra attacks. But requiring a 2nd feat as a pre-requisite is what really kills cleave at 1st level.

Yeah, I picked toughness specifically b/c it is extremely front-loaded. Really only good at 1st level.

EDIT: Hmm, with your low damage in the early game weapon focus seems worse than PA at first level. And since I can't put the fighter bonus feat into toughness, it might be a better option. And without a composite longbow, rapid shot doesn't seem so hot either.

[Lemur]

Hmm... wizard who sells his spellbook for a pack of attack dogs?

Magebreed war trained riding dogs, if I recall correctly.

[sonofzeal]

I did a contest with someone a few years ago, building successive SRD-only characters to pwn the previous one. I think it went something like...

Orc Barbarian (for rage)
Grey Elf Wizard using Sleep + nonproficient Scythe for high crit damage
Xeph Barbarian (for fast movement, not rage; feats as Wild Talent and Speed of Thought) with a longbow
Human Monk with Deflect Arrows (actual feat, not bonus) and a Sling
etc.


In general I'd go with the Orc Barbarian as the most practical in a party. Anything that could survive a round next to him will likely result in a TPK. And light sensitivity is easy to bypass these days, even at that level.

[ericgrau]

Okay, re-working things a bit, based on the thinking out-loud I did above:
Half-orc (or orc if allowed) Fighter 1 or Barbarian 1
Feats: toughness, toughness, (power attack)
EQ: scale mail, greatsword

A caster can SoD what, 1-3 baddies per day at level 1 (depending on how many make their save)? But a martial class can usually "SoD" with his weapon several more times at level 1, and any CR 1/2 mook can often SoD the caster with his crossbow. Or, if that fails, 2 of them can. Meanwhile the fighter or barb laughs off the blows (if they even hit) and kills both mooks easily.

I'd put a druid above a wizard outdoors at level 1, since he gets an AoE SoD, HP and his animal companion vs. just an AoE SoD. But in a dungeon he's not so hot.

[Jack_Simth]

Ugh, I hate it when misconceptions get recycled. Maybe if you can afford barding and (at later levels) a full set of gear for the animal companion this would be so.

Let's take the popular riding dog as an example:
about the same HP
similar AC: Assumes the fighter has the measly recommended starting wealth, which also means the druid can't cheese his dog with barding
lower AB: especially if the fighter grabs a feat. A +3 to +4 difference wouldn't be unreasonable. So if the dog hits 50% of the time, the fighter hits 65%-70% of the time and lands 30-40% more hits! (if a wolf hits 10 times out of 20, the fighter hits 13-14 times, hence the 30-40% not 15-20%)
half the damage compared to a level 1 fighter. So even if he managed to land his hits, he'd still be miles behind.

The wolf has similar stats, btw. A riding dog is just a way for a druid to get a wolf with extra cheese.

Outside of 1-2 encounters per day, a lone monster, and a failed save against the caster's spell (or a tightly huddled band and even more failed saves), the martial classes are much ahead at early levels. Though casting a 2nd level spell as well... dang talk about front-loaded. That would change things a great deal, though the caster still won't last long without rest.

A rogue is almost never the optimum for combat btw. They're way too fragile. Plus at first level you need the sneak attack damage just to equal a greatsword. That's why rogues also have skills to balance them out.

Let's see... Riding Dog is the combat-monkey of the 1st level animal companions.

Leather barding is fairly cheap - double price for a medium nonhumanoid, so 20 gp for +2 Armor to AC; well within the range of a 1st level character (Hide would be 30 gp for +3 Armor to AC, but incurrs an Armor Check Penalty, and we can't be sure how the DM will rule on the Riding Dog's proficiency for it). Gives the Riding Dog an AC of 18. Assuming the Druid starts out with 50 gp (average for the 2d4*10), that leaves the Druid enough cash left over to pick up a spell components pouch (5 gp), Hide armor (15 gp), a sling (free), lots of sling bullets (10 for a silver), a Heavy Wooden Shield (if using a one-handed weapon, 7 gp), and a melee weapon (Club, 0 gp for one-handed, or a Spear, 2 gp, if going 2-handed), with a little money left over for some simple supplies (not that they're really needed, what with Survival as a Wisdom-based class skill and Knoweledge(Nature) giving a bit of synergy).

A Riding dog has fairly set statistics - Bite +3 for 1d6+3, AC 16 (18, with leather Barding), 13 hp. The DMG NPC Fighter-1 is Str 15, Dex 13, Con 14 (we don't care about the rest, at the moment). So as a PC, that'd be 12 hp, AC 15 (assuming Scale Mail armor), Greatsword +3 for 2d6+3 before feats. If the Fighter takes, say, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, and Improved Initiative, the Fighter is attacking at +4 for 2d6+3 (or +3 for 2d6+5), AC 15, 12 HP. For the DMG NPC Fighter-1 with PC starting wealth, the Riding Dog is a slightly better defensive package, but a notably lesser offensive package. Of course, the Druid that gets the Riding Dog also takes pot-shots with a weapon - possibly while riding the dog, possibly not, possibly while buffing the dog, possibly not - which can puts the Druid/Animal Companion ahead.

But then, the DMG NPC fighter is using a badly-set-out 25 point buy... which won't generally be the case. A PC Fighter-1 is usually going to be a bit more useful that the Druid-1's Riding Dog animal companion. Usually.

[JupiterPaladin]

I find that war-dog riding Gnome fighters with mounted combat can be particularly annoying, especially in packs

[Da Beast]

Level 1 halfling fighter. Maxed dex, weapon focus: sling or whatever weapon you want to throw at people and point blank shot.

1 BAB+5 DEX+1 size+1 racial+1 WF+1 PBS for +10 to hit at first level. If you scrounge up an extra +2 to damage for a minimum damage of 4, you should be able to one shot most mooks at this level.

This may work better as a feat based rogue. Trade in the +1 to hit from BAB for superior stealth and other skill goodies.

With master thrower or blood storm blade this may even be viable at higher levels.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Psychic Warrior 1 with Expansion and Up The Walls. As long as he and his gear weigh at least 500 pounds, he can deal 20d6 damage to up to four creatures every round with no attack roll or saving throw. Use Expansion to become large and x8 weight, for 4000 pounds, run up a wall at least 10 feet above them, and jump down on top of them for falling object damage as per the DMG. Since he's jumping down he takes no damage himself. It may be based entirely on a rules abuse, but it's still the most powerful thing possible at level 1 as far as consistent damage potential goes. Go with a race which gets a lot of bonus powerpoints to do it more often each day, such as Synad (CP).

[Hal]

My vote is for Duskblade. I played in a campaign as one, starting at level 1, and I definitely screwed with my DM's plans when I ripped through encounters that weren't supposed to be winnable. At one point, he had to send a high-level NPC at us and told us to either surrender or risk death. Tee hee.

At level one, you have the proficiencies of a Fighter and (most of) the spells of a Wizard. Color Spray is wicked sick at this stage, you get five cantrips as SLAs, and you can channel Shocking Grasp if you really need to throw down some decent damage. It's not much more, but it's more than most people can do at level 1.

[Ellisthion]

A Wizard who sells his spellbook to buy a herd of bison, and then trains in Handle Animal to make them stampede all his foes.

A Commoner with Skill Focus (Basketweaving).

But for an actual response, I'll have to agree with the Duskblade.