New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 88
  1. - Top - End - #31
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Frosty's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    Here is the first draft of a class Tempest Fennac and I came up with. He did the spell list. I came up with the class abilities

    <Name yet to be decided. Suggestions?>
    This class is an INT-based caster. Spell progression is as Sorcerer. Spontaneous casting.
    2+INT skill points
    d4 hp

    Good save: Will
    Bad save: Fort, Ref
    BAB: 1/2

    Lv1:
    Armored Mage - cast in light armor

    Extended Summoning - Summoned creatures stay for 2 more rounds than normal.

    Lv2:
    Wall of Will - bonus to dispel checks made to counter a spell being cast. Bonus equal to Int bonus. Increases max CL allowed by Dispel and Greater Dispel for this purpose equal to Int bonus.


    Lv3:
    Advanced learning - as Beguiler, except limited to Conjuration and Adjuration spells. Possibly ban the Orb spells so they don't end up out-damaging the Warmages.

    Lv5:
    Extend Spell - Bonus feat

    Lv6:
    Magic Breaker - bonus to all dispel checks instead of just to counter spells. Bonus equal to Int bonus. Increases max CL allowed by Dispel and Greater Dispel equal to Int bonus.

    Lv7:
    Advanced Learning

    Lv10:
    Rapid Metamagic - bonus feat

    Absorbing Counter - If you successfully counter a spell, then, until the end of your next round, the next Summoning spell you cast only takes 1 standard action normally instead of 1 round.

    Lv11:
    Advanced Learning

    Lv12:
    Summoning Dispel - For a number of time equal to your Int bonus (min 1) per day, when you cast a summoning spell, you may also choose to have the creature release a burst of anti-magic energy when it appears. The burst 10 ft in radius is centered on the creature, but doesn't affect the creature. It acts like an area Greater Dispel Magic with a CL equal to your character level.

    Lv15:
    Advanced Learning

    Lv19:
    Advanced Learning

    Lv20:
    Immediate Dispel - You may cast all Dispel and Greater Dispels as Immediate actions instead of Standard actions. You may do this for a number of times equal to your INT bonus. Minimum once/day.


    Spell list for this Abjurer/Conjurer

    0
    Acid Splash
    Light
    Chalk Board
    Arcane Mark
    Presdigitation
    Resistance

    1
    Grease
    Mage Armor
    Mount
    Summon Monster I
    Unseen Servant
    Protection from Alignment
    Alarm
    Endure Elements
    Hail of Stone
    Cause Fear
    Shield
    Know Protection

    2
    Fog Cloud
    Glitterdust
    Summon Monster II
    Summon Swarm
    Web
    Arcane Lock
    Protection from Arrows
    Resist Energy
    Decastave
    Daggerspell Stance
    Battering Ram
    Daze Monster
    Darkness

    3
    Magic Circle Against Alignment
    Dispel Magic
    Protecton from Energy
    Nondetection
    Shadow Tentacle, Lesser
    Reverse Arrow
    Phantom Steed
    Sleet Storm
    Stinking Cloud
    Summon Monster III
    Bands of Steel
    Hold Person
    Flashburst

    4
    Black Tentacles
    Dimension Door
    Resist Energy Mass
    Secure Shelter
    Solid Fog
    Summon Monster IV
    Anticipate Teleportation
    Dimensional Anchor
    Wall of Alignment
    Stoneskin
    Remove Curse

    5
    Teleport
    Mage's Faithful Hound
    Cloudkill
    Break Enchantment
    Passwall
    Wall of Stone
    Shadow Tentacle, Greater
    Dismissal
    Ironguard, Lesser
    Feebleminded
    Fireshield Mass

    6
    Summon Monster VI
    Wall of Iron
    Acid Fog
    Dispel Magic, Greater
    Guards and Wards
    Repulsion
    Globe of Invurnerability
    Bigby’s Forceful Hand

    7
    Mage's Magnificent MansionF
    Phase Door
    Summon Monster VII
    Teleport, Greater
    Banishment
    Spellturning
    Energy Immunity
    Symbol of Stunning

    8
    Incendiary Cloud
    Summon Monster VIII
    Mind Blank
    Dimension Lock
    Prismatic Wall
    Maze
    Trap the Soul

    9
    Absorption
    Gate <Replace with something yet to be decided>
    Summon Monster IX
    Teleportation Circle
    Freedom
    Imprisonment
    Last edited by Frosty; 2008-03-13 at 02:05 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Tempest Fennac's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    West Midlands, UK.

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    What class skills should this class have? I was thinking Concentrate, Decipher Script, all Knowledge skills, Profession, Apprise, Spellcraft, Search and Craft. Also, would Summon Elemental Monolith be a good replacement for Gate?
    Last edited by Tempest Fennac; 2008-03-13 at 02:59 PM.
    "It doesn't matter what you think I'm supposed to be, 'cause I myself know all too well." Line from "King of My World" by Saliva.
    Good itP 2009 winner,Cleric itP Winner.
    Taking Reiki requests. PM me for details.
    Spoiler
    Show


  3. - Top - End - #33
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Frosty's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    Don't forget Spellcraft. Summon Elemental Monolith is fine.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Tempest Fennac's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    West Midlands, UK.

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    Well remembered. I'll add that to my past post.
    "It doesn't matter what you think I'm supposed to be, 'cause I myself know all too well." Line from "King of My World" by Saliva.
    Good itP 2009 winner,Cleric itP Winner.
    Taking Reiki requests. PM me for details.
    Spoiler
    Show


  5. - Top - End - #35
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    the Realms
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    You could always alter gate to non-brokenness. When calling, you can get one creature of up to your caster level in HD, or several creatures up to double your level in HD, but no one with more than half your level in HD. That should take care of the biggest flaw of this spell. Give the creatures a save, if you want more balance.
    Why is it the best campaign ideas happen when you're sitting down to someone elses game?

    Pun-Pun is an example of the worst case scenario. Never, ever, push your DM that far.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Tempest Fennac's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    West Midlands, UK.

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    I was thinking of some Divine spellcaster fixes: replace Clerics ith Favoured Souls as martial casters, and ban broken self buffs such as Righteous Might and Divine Power and have Archivists as academic casters (my problem with Cloisters Clerics is that they basically lose the ability to be usful on the frontline for skills which aren't that useful considering how normal Wizards get them while Archivists use Int for spellcasting, and they get Dark Knowledge, which needs ranks in knowledge skills to work).
    In order to fix Archiviss, I'd let them use Int to calculate bonus spells rather then Wis, but I'd bar them from being able to learn spells which aren't on the normal Cleric spell list, or their dieties Domain list (they would have the same rules as Clerics ragarding falling and atonement while needing to have a diety. Letting them have causes would probably be a bad idea due to how they would get more choice regarding Domains to a degree).
    In regards to Druids, I'd make people se the Shapeshifter variant as its forms are weaker then Wild Shape, and this would easily eliminate Natural Spell cheese and the animal companion.
    "It doesn't matter what you think I'm supposed to be, 'cause I myself know all too well." Line from "King of My World" by Saliva.
    Good itP 2009 winner,Cleric itP Winner.
    Taking Reiki requests. PM me for details.
    Spoiler
    Show


  7. - Top - End - #37
    Colossus in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Dinosaur Museum aw yisss.
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    I'm not very good at this stuff, but I was asked to look at it. Maybe you put it on the previous page, but what, exactly, is the purpose of this class? Is it to replace all the casters? It mentions just Abjuration and Conjuration. So it's a maker-protector? Protector works, they're always needed, but how will the making fit in? It seems like a slightly odd pair of schools to put together, too... It might be worth just adding a decisive note on what exactly this class' role is meant to be.
    Meh. Like I said, I'm no good at looking critically at these things. That's just what came to mind.

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Tempest Fennac's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    West Midlands, UK.

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    I thought Abjuration would go better with Conjuration then it wold with Transmutation (due to the Dread Necromancer, Warmage and Beguiller existing, we needed classes which covered the other schools). Here is the Diviner/Transmuter:

    BAB: Wizard. HD: 6. Good save: Will. Skill points: 2/level.
    Casts spontaneous Cha-based spells (same progression as Sorcerers).
    Class skills: Knowledge (Arcana+Planes), Concentrate, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise and Spellcraft (and UMD if that wouldn't be too powerful).

    Spell list:

    0
    Detect Magic
    Read Magic
    Daze
    Mage Hnd
    Mending Stick
    Touch of Fatigue

    1
    Animate Rope
    Enlarge Person
    Expeditious Retreat
    Feather Fall
    Jump
    Magic Weapon
    Reduce Person
    Identify
    Comprehend Languages
    Detect secret Doors
    Arrow Mind
    Critical Strike
    Spontaneous Search
    True Strike

    2
    Bear's Endurance
    Bull's Strength
    Cat's Grace
    Darkvision
    Eagle's Splendor
    Fox's Cunning
    Knock
    Levitate
    Owl's Wisdom
    Pyrotechnics
    Spider Climb
    See Invisibility
    Detect Thoughts
    Cloud of Bewilderment
    Hypnotic Pattern
    Force Ladder

    3
    Blink
    Flame Arrow.
    Fly
    Gaseous Form.
    Haste
    Keen Edge
    Magic Weapon, Greater
    Secret Page
    Slow
    Arcane Sight
    Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
    Tongues
    Telepathic Bond, Lesser
    Dispel Magic
    Shatterfloor
    Shadowbinding
    Displacement

    4
    Reduce Person, Mass
    Stone Shape
    Enlarge Person, Mass
    Arcane Eye
    Detect Scrying
    Unluck
    Scrying
    Crushing Dispair
    Darkvision, Mass
    Bladebane
    Wall of Ice

    5
    Rary’s Telepathic Bond
    Prying Eyes
    Contact Other Plane
    Blink, Improved
    Fly, Mass
    Fabricate
    Nightstalker’s Transformation
    Passwall
    Baleful Polymorph
    Magic Jar
    Shadow Form

    6
    Disintegrate
    Stone to Flesh
    Flesh to Stone
    Analyze Dweomer
    Probe Thoughts
    True Seeing
    Wages of Sin
    Solipsism

    7
    Ethereal Jaunt
    Reverse Gravity
    Statue
    Mordenkainen’s Sword
    Insanity
    Scrying, Greater
    Vision
    Arane Sight, Greater

    8
    Moment of Prescience
    Prying Eyes, Greater
    Discern Location
    Blackstaff
    Ghostform
    Simbul’s Skeletal Deliquescence
    Screen
    Scintillating Pattern

    9
    Foresight
    Hindsight
    Etherealness
    Transmute Rock to Lava
    Astral Projection
    Eye of Power

    I'm still working on the fluff, and I need to chat with Frost about the class' abilities.
    Last edited by Tempest Fennac; 2008-03-16 at 08:04 AM.
    "It doesn't matter what you think I'm supposed to be, 'cause I myself know all too well." Line from "King of My World" by Saliva.
    Good itP 2009 winner,Cleric itP Winner.
    Taking Reiki requests. PM me for details.
    Spoiler
    Show


  9. - Top - End - #39
    Orc in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2008

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    Heh, I'm thinking more along the lines of eliminating the core melee classes. But I'd probably toss the Wizard too, or limit them to one school. Sorcs aren't as broken because they can't learn spells beyond what they're granted per level.

    I have no clue what to do about Clerics and Druids though.

    To clarify though, I'd be tossing the core melee classes in favor of ToB classes (Probably fused with the core classes... Since I wouldn't be including Fighters and Rogues and Rangers and Paladins and Monks, there'd be no worry about the newly pumped up martial adept types stealing the core classes' thunder.

    I'd give the Warblade the fighter's bonus feats, create monk and rogue swordsage combinations, and the paladin would obviously fuse with the Crusader.

    Not quite sure whether the Ranger would make a better swordsage variant or Warblade variant. Possibly would need to be something kind of in between.

    That would power up melee considerably. Then the limits on Wizards would prevent Batman builds. Although I would probably strongly urge my players to be a Sorcerer or Psion instead, to be honest.

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Tempest Fennac's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    West Midlands, UK.

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    I'd ban Wizards rather then just limiting them to 1 school due to how they would become ridiculously underpowered (limiting them to up to 3 or 4 schools would probably be better, but that would mean not banning some schools due to just needing a couple of spells from them. eg: I could get by without Enchantment, but I'd need Abjuration for Dispel and Break Enchantment, as well as Illusion for the invisibility spells, but I wouldn't be that bothered about other spells from those schools).
    "It doesn't matter what you think I'm supposed to be, 'cause I myself know all too well." Line from "King of My World" by Saliva.
    Good itP 2009 winner,Cleric itP Winner.
    Taking Reiki requests. PM me for details.
    Spoiler
    Show


  11. - Top - End - #41
    Orc in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2008

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    Well, I was considering an eight pointed star diagram allowing me to determine which schools negate others, instead of allowing Wizards to choose which schools they lose when they specialize, and increasing the schools lost to 3-5 instead of 2, and then REQUIRING specialization...

    But I'm not too worried about it really. I mean, players that want to be arcane casters can be a Sorc if they think the Wiz is too nerfed under these rules, or just be a Psion which is much more easy to handle.

    The biggest challenge is still the CoDzilla. Cleric and Druid aren't as simple to curtail.

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Iowa
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    Sure, D&D is "broken." Magic is powerful. But most balance issues are tracable to either a weak spine or a lack of imagination in the DM. Don't make the rules do your job for you. Power should never be free. Period. Some may call this fluff, but it really seems to be common sense when you think the consequences of casters through.

    General points applicable to casters:

    First, all spellcasters need rest. What's that, didn't get 8 hours of uninterrupted rest? Goodbye, demigodhood! An unrested fighter is tired. An unrested wizard is next to useless.

    Second, spelling up is an earned luxury. Did the PCs do a lot of divination and/or planning to make that prep time beleivable, or have you as a DM facilitated a spell-up phase at the start of your encounters?

    Third, I like to make my NPCs exactly as cheap as the PCs. If they want to spell-cheese their way through my encounters, they can expect to be treated in kind. They can make things as hard on themselves as they want...

    Specific things for the caster types:

    A. Divine spell casters are easy to balance. You just need to look at where the power is coming from: some godthe character has a relationship with. How's that relationship coming along? Sure, Thor or Baphomat or Pelor or whoever probably doesn't worry too much about what his 1st level, or even 5th level followers are up to, as long as it's basically "Up to Code" with s/he/it's portfolio. But once you bust up into the 9th level and up range, I think that a divine character should be reminded who is boss. OFTEN. You serve at the deitie's pleasure. Characters who are more intent on their own business than their celestial (or infernal) leige's should find their spell power withering as a result.

    If your gods don't care enough about their clerics to look in on them now and then, why are they feeding them all that divine might?

    B. Druids have their own rather obvious limitations, once you stop viewing them as stat blocks.

    Animal companions are not robots. They have to be fed, first of all. Sure, your may be toting a dire tiger around, but you also have to be feeding it. What's that? It's "hunting?" Well, I sure that having set a hungry dire-terror loose on the countryside isn't going to cause any problems for the PCs. Oh, what's that, you're down in the Temple of Unholy Evil or the Undless Chasms of the Underdark or whatever? Well, the dwarf is probably going to start looking tasty, then.

    Also, Animal Companions are like fighters with crappier will saves. They can and should be dominated regularly, especially if the PC spellslingers like playing this card. What, you awakened them? Hope your diplomacy score is pretty decent while you explain why it's always getting lvldrained and maimed for you...

    Also, druids should also find their power mysteriously failing them if they stop performing the various duties that your setting demands of them. ******* around in Waterdeep or the Underdark or some other plane or something should be draining. At the least, a periodic rejuvination and communing with a real wild place should be nessesary. Pin down where the power comes from and stick it to them!

    You can always bring back the old "duel to lvl" rules... but more realisticly, learing things like wildshaping and such from elemental powers or fey can be pleasant fluff while imposing very real obligations on the character.

    C. Ah.... wizards....

    1. No multiclassing into arcane magic without AT LEAST one NPC level of Expert(arcanist). Bump up that spellcraft, buddy. This stuff is hard work. Multiclassing is at the heart of much of the brokenness in 3.x, but I particularly refuse to accept that some fighter can swing his sword around in a dungeon for a few days and in a sudden epiphany gain the knowledge it took a first lvl wizard a whole youth to master.

    2. No free spells. PERIOD. Magic is stupidly, brokenly powerful. So why is it so easy to access in 3.x? Your mentor gave you a couple. Maybe some of the crappier 1st and 2nd level spells might be up for sale, at exorbinant price, in select major cities. But anything beyond that is going to be a prized secret. If you are a wizard and you know Black Tentacles or Teleport or Broken Spell #76, why would you ever share it? For mere GOLD? Obtaining spells should be WORK. the higher lvl the spell, the harder to find it should be. Horrifying pacts with extraplanar beings, perilous excavations of ancient ruins, genuinely expenisive and inconviently time-consuming research... or some other wizard's spellbook...

    3. Which brings me to the spellbook. Once spells aren't gamebreaking goodies sprinkled willy nilly into the game, they become dangerously valuable. Any mid-to-high lvl wizard should be half mad with paranoia about the safty of hir precious spellbook at all times. Once the PC spellcasters start throwing those badass spells around, the vultures should begin to circle. Why do you think NPC wizards are always entombed in those impregnable towers? PCs should expect telelported assassins, master burglers, and of course, greedy anti-PC partys looking to make a buck. A naked wizard without a spellbook is... a glorified expert. A naked warrior grabs a chair and is still a dangerous individual. A naked monk probably needn't notice.

    I actually like to apply this to magic items in general. Really compettent, high lvl warriors and rogues might run around with just masterwork items becasue they're sick of dealing with it.

    4. A final balance point about arcane types. The reason that lvl20 wizards exist is that some fighter saved his ass over and over from lvls 1-5. "On no! Only 2/3 of the kobalds failed the save! Hide behind the fighter!" "Oh no! We actually have more than one encounter today! Hide behind the fighter!" etc. Sure, they outshine the fighter eventually, but they OWE their tank. Of course, nobody seems to start at lvl 1 these days. I guess it just takes to long to get your "uberbuild" set up that way.

    DMs, straighten that backbone! Don't let those spellcasters walk all over you. Give power a price.
    Last edited by Aravail; 2008-03-16 at 11:56 PM. Reason: spelling, lost thoughts
    I am the soul of honor, kindness, mercy, and goodness. Trust me in all things.

    -Corwin of Amber

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Appalachian Mountains

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    My fix is to tone them down. The next campaign I'm running in D&D has the spellcaster with the bardic progression of spells, and a choice of two schools of magic. I'm also adding some general magical abilities that are similar to bardic music in progression, but I haven't finished that yet.

    Generally, I am perfectly fine with 7+ level spells as being epic spells. That leaves pretty much the polymorph line as the remaining problem, which there are some good fixes for.

    RE: Above.

    Animal Companions are like fighters. With bad will saves. So like fighters. Which means the Druid gets a fighter as a class feature. As for care and feeding, let me introduce you to Goodberry. If there is a cleric in the party, there is also Create Food and Water.

    -also, animal companions have the same progression as the fighter on Will saves, tend to have a 12 wisdom, and get a +4 bonus to will saves from being an animal companion. Which adds up to a better will save then the fighter, especially if he PrC'd or multiclasses into something else fightery.

    RE: Rutee

    Well put, Rutee. Couldn't have said it better myself.
    Last edited by Skjaldbakka; 2008-03-16 at 11:58 PM.
    Aratos Tell
    HP:53/53 AC:19,FlatFooted:16,Touch:13
    Active Effects: Speak w/Animals
    Spells Prepared: Cure Minor Wounds*4, Flare, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Animal Messenger, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration, Hold Animal, Cure Mod. Wounds*2, Speak w/Plants

    Megiddo
    HP:26/26 PP: 40/40 AC:14,FlatFooted:13,Touch:13
    Active Effects:
    Spells Prepared: Light*2, Burning Hands*2, Protection f/Evil, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, See Invis., Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray*2

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Banned
     
    Rutee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    So it's either balance the class, or jump through hoops and screw with the players.

    Option A sounds nicer.

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Iowa
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    If you want to view the idea that gaining your PC near-godlike power might actually involve some in-game work as hoop-jumping and player-screwing, that's fine, I suppose.

    I think it makes caster play both more challanging and more fun. Whipping out "Save-or-Die spell'o'doom" is a lot more satisfying when you played through obtaining it. Also, it makes individual casters more vibrant and unique. If Kazbad the Strange traveled through the Abyss to a place where the arcane formula for Contingency blazed across the sky in letters of flame, He's earned the right to cheese the game with it, and he's become an infinitly cooler character too. Oh, you just kind-of figured it out when you leveled? Well, that's fun too, I guess.

    Want to know and do things no mortal can imagine? Do things and pay prices no mortal can imagine.

    Fair points on the Animal Companion comments. Though convincing Huge carnivors to subsist on a handfull of berrys should at least take a Handle Animal roll...
    Last edited by Aravail; 2008-03-17 at 12:48 AM. Reason: forgot a word
    I am the soul of honor, kindness, mercy, and goodness. Trust me in all things.

    -Corwin of Amber

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Appalachian Mountains

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    And yet, for a pittance of gold and xp, a scroll of a spell can be made, which can in turn to scribed into a spellbook. All issues of versimilitude aside, it actually hurts other classes more when you make scrolls arbirtarily hard to get, as the ability to use scrolls via Use Magic Device is a significant factor for classes like rogue and bard.

    Not to mention that your proposed solution turns the game into 'lets follow the wizards around while he finds new spells'. Which makes the wizard dominate even more of the game, as his class now requires that he force the party into side-quest after side-quest. The problem is the spells themselves, not the automatic learning of spells each level (which actually makes sense, as researching those spells is what the wizard is assumed to be doing during his downtime anyway).

    The other problem is the interchangable class features. Most classes are locked into their build. You can't swap out skills, feats, or class featurse, but spells, you can switch out your spell list every day. That's like a fighter swapping out his list of feats every day. Which is a very close analogy, as Wizards get very little other than spells, and fighters get only feats.
    Aratos Tell
    HP:53/53 AC:19,FlatFooted:16,Touch:13
    Active Effects: Speak w/Animals
    Spells Prepared: Cure Minor Wounds*4, Flare, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Animal Messenger, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration, Hold Animal, Cure Mod. Wounds*2, Speak w/Plants

    Megiddo
    HP:26/26 PP: 40/40 AC:14,FlatFooted:13,Touch:13
    Active Effects:
    Spells Prepared: Light*2, Burning Hands*2, Protection f/Evil, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, See Invis., Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray*2

  17. - Top - End - #47
    Banned
     
    Rutee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    This is why DnD players often need heavy deprogramming in my experience. "Earn" fictional power that is only meaningful in a game and story sense? You earn things that are useful in the real world, not game and story constructs that are there for fun. Now, that said? Think about what you just told me for 2 seconds. You told me that if I want godlike power- stop. I am arguing towards nerfing an OP class. A class I like on a conceptual level and would play given a proper opportunity. Do you really think that I want godlike comparative power? Think about that for a minute. I'll get back to that later.

    A quest for a spell is interesting on a conceptual level, I'll agree with that. The problem is, it's an undue amount of story attention for one person's mechanical ability. In fact, it's too much story attention for what amounts to mechanical ability in the first place. I can imagine handing out spells as an incidental benefit to the Wizard at the end of a quest, but not of making them the purpose of a party quest a spell.

    Like I said, we'd get back to this. What you're doing with your players? It isn't even about screwing with them. It's about marginalizing them out of this misguided belief that one must 'earn' fictional power. I want them balanced, sure, but it's only because I want them /balanced/. I would prefer it be done by boosting the fighter, monk, etc. But that's more daunting then nerfing the casters. Now, that said, a quick examination of your techniques. The Cleric? Becomes Bitch for his God. Making Players errand boys is generally bad form, even if you have every 'reason' to do so. Feeding the Druid's pet? Handled by Skjald. Wizards? Already went over that in vague detail. How much do you want /mechanics/ to be the focus of a story? It applies to everyone, but it's at its most offensive with Wizards, since there's no Character there that has a legitimate reason to hassle the Wizard. Just the GM deciding people must 'earn' power. So no. You haven't solved anything.

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Orc in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2008

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    The only time I can see questing for a spell would be "BBEG X can only be harmed/defeated through the use of spell Z. You must find the one and only scroll of this spell to stand a chance!"

    Anyone have any thoughts on my idea of combining the base melee classes with the ToB classes to make them stronger?
    Last edited by GammaPaladin; 2008-03-17 at 02:28 AM.

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Tempest Fennac's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    West Midlands, UK.

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    Excluding what he said about Wizards, I have to agree with what Aravail said (admittedly, I would ave thought that a lot of high level Wizards would be likely to get together to share spells due to how it would probably benefit them as much as it benefits the person they are swapping with, and I would have thought that high level Wizards would often be happy to share as many spells with their students as possible due to wanting them to do well, in theory). Skjaldbakka, unless the supernatural-type abilities are really good, wouldn;t that make Wizards too weak in your campaign? The problem with using Bards as a guideline is that they are designed as a "Jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none" class rather then as a proper Arcanist.

    In regards to GammaPaladin's idea, I was thinking about opposite schools the other week: I thought it could go like this:

    Evocation/Abjuration (One focusses on blasting while the other focusses on protection).

    Conjuration/Illusion (One deals with creatng or summoning tangible things while the other creates things which only look real).

    Enchantment/Divination (One alters how people think while the other focusses on gaining real information).

    Necromancy/Tranmutation (I can't think of a good reason, but they are the only 2 remaining schools).
    "It doesn't matter what you think I'm supposed to be, 'cause I myself know all too well." Line from "King of My World" by Saliva.
    Good itP 2009 winner,Cleric itP Winner.
    Taking Reiki requests. PM me for details.
    Spoiler
    Show


  20. - Top - End - #50
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Appalachian Mountains

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    It is my personal opinion that Bard is the power level that full spellcasters should be at. It is the opinion of most that spellcasters are too powerful, therefore the other classes should be brought up to match them. It is my opinion that spellcasters are too strong, so they should be reduced in power.

    Some spells will be reduced in level. Fireball will probably be second level, for instance, although you wouldn't really be getting it sooner than a 3.5 wizard.

    That project is one the backburner right now though, so it won't be done for awhile.
    Aratos Tell
    HP:53/53 AC:19,FlatFooted:16,Touch:13
    Active Effects: Speak w/Animals
    Spells Prepared: Cure Minor Wounds*4, Flare, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Animal Messenger, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration, Hold Animal, Cure Mod. Wounds*2, Speak w/Plants

    Megiddo
    HP:26/26 PP: 40/40 AC:14,FlatFooted:13,Touch:13
    Active Effects:
    Spells Prepared: Light*2, Burning Hands*2, Protection f/Evil, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, See Invis., Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray*2

  21. - Top - End - #51
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Tempest Fennac's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    West Midlands, UK.

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    To be honest, I tend to see other classes being too weak as the problem (I have been talking with a lot of people who haven't been posting in this thread or the "balancing by cutting classes" thread, and they didn't think that spellcasters were that much more powerful then other classes).
    "It doesn't matter what you think I'm supposed to be, 'cause I myself know all too well." Line from "King of My World" by Saliva.
    Good itP 2009 winner,Cleric itP Winner.
    Taking Reiki requests. PM me for details.
    Spoiler
    Show


  22. - Top - End - #52
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Appalachian Mountains

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    Hate to say this, but 'they'- are wrong. Especially if you use 'druid' and 'not more powerful than the other classes' in the same sentence.

    Ah druid. It gets a fighter as a class feature. It is better (at being a fighter) than the fighter because of another class feature. Oh yeah- it is also a full spellcaster, which makes it better than fighter anyway.
    Aratos Tell
    HP:53/53 AC:19,FlatFooted:16,Touch:13
    Active Effects: Speak w/Animals
    Spells Prepared: Cure Minor Wounds*4, Flare, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Animal Messenger, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration, Hold Animal, Cure Mod. Wounds*2, Speak w/Plants

    Megiddo
    HP:26/26 PP: 40/40 AC:14,FlatFooted:13,Touch:13
    Active Effects:
    Spells Prepared: Light*2, Burning Hands*2, Protection f/Evil, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, See Invis., Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray*2

  23. - Top - End - #53
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Tempest Fennac's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    West Midlands, UK.

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    That's why I suggested the Shapeshifter Druid variant: page 39 of http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules...asses-Base.pdf . (It doesn't get an animal companion, and it can't use Natural spell. It's forms are also less powerful then Wild Shape). Are you sure it isn't mainly the DM styles if other players don't class spellcasters as overpowered? I still think Aravail had some good ideas about Divine Casters, though.


    EDIT: If you think Shapeshifting is too powerful, could you limit it to the same number oif times/day as the Barbarian's Rage ability while only allowing the Druid to shapeshift for up to 2 rounds+Con modifier?
    Last edited by Tempest Fennac; 2008-03-17 at 04:42 AM.
    "It doesn't matter what you think I'm supposed to be, 'cause I myself know all too well." Line from "King of My World" by Saliva.
    Good itP 2009 winner,Cleric itP Winner.
    Taking Reiki requests. PM me for details.
    Spoiler
    Show


  24. - Top - End - #54
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Appalachian Mountains

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    It is more playing styles that can change the appearance of how a class plays. However, the fundamental reason that casters are better is because they have more options, and they are not locked into their build (with the exception of sorceror and bard).

    More options are always better. Spellcasters always have more options than fighters. Also, most spellcasters can pick what they want to do each day. Most non-spellcasters have to make this decision at character creation.

    Imagine playing a 2WF, and going up to fight a creature that can't be caught in melee. Time to use the bow, right? But your entire build is useless at that point.

    Imagine the same scenario with a wizard, one that decided blasting things was cool. Up comes a nasty high SR monster. The Wizard flees, and comes back the next day loaded up with no SR spells.

    The fighter can't run away and come back tomorrow specced for ranged combat.
    Last edited by Skjaldbakka; 2008-03-17 at 04:52 AM.
    Aratos Tell
    HP:53/53 AC:19,FlatFooted:16,Touch:13
    Active Effects: Speak w/Animals
    Spells Prepared: Cure Minor Wounds*4, Flare, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Animal Messenger, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration, Hold Animal, Cure Mod. Wounds*2, Speak w/Plants

    Megiddo
    HP:26/26 PP: 40/40 AC:14,FlatFooted:13,Touch:13
    Active Effects:
    Spells Prepared: Light*2, Burning Hands*2, Protection f/Evil, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, See Invis., Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray*2

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Tempest Fennac's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    West Midlands, UK.

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    That is a good point. I suppose limiting Wizards to only getting the spells they get when they level up would help to a degree, but the situation is more difficult for Clerics and Druids due to the fluff surrounding where they get their spells. I know Ultimate Clerics and Druids need to pay for spells by making sacrifices, which I didn't think made much sense (eg: gods would want their servnts to be as verstile as possible, while the idea of non-evil Druids destroying products of civilisation to get spells doesn't fit due to how they would probably be in favour of nature and civilisation co-existing).

    I'd use this appoach to limiting spells for Divine Casters: when a new spell level is available, get the relevant Cure or SNA spell for that level with 2 others of your choice. If a new spell level isn't available, pick any 2 spells. (Eg: if I was using this rule with my Shapeshifter Druid, http://rustmonster.net/sheet/?view=598 , I'd pick SNA 1, Lesser Vigour and Entangle at level 1. At level 2, I'd pick Speak with Animals and Endure Elements while not getting access to any oter spells unless I could find the relevant magic item). Fluff wise, it could just be assumed that mortals can only have so much access to Divine spells without suffering from health problems.
    "It doesn't matter what you think I'm supposed to be, 'cause I myself know all too well." Line from "King of My World" by Saliva.
    Good itP 2009 winner,Cleric itP Winner.
    Taking Reiki requests. PM me for details.
    Spoiler
    Show


  26. - Top - End - #56
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Appalachian Mountains

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    I don't think that is the right approach. For one, why ever play a wizard in that case? I much prefer to simply slow down the progression. Much less heavy handed that way.

    Of course, we could make a nod to Basic D&D, and stop giving wizards free spell knowledge after 4th level.
    Aratos Tell
    HP:53/53 AC:19,FlatFooted:16,Touch:13
    Active Effects: Speak w/Animals
    Spells Prepared: Cure Minor Wounds*4, Flare, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Animal Messenger, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration, Hold Animal, Cure Mod. Wounds*2, Speak w/Plants

    Megiddo
    HP:26/26 PP: 40/40 AC:14,FlatFooted:13,Touch:13
    Active Effects:
    Spells Prepared: Light*2, Burning Hands*2, Protection f/Evil, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, See Invis., Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray*2

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Tempest Fennac's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    West Midlands, UK.

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    If I'm honest, I'd much sooner just have less spells (playing a caster while missing out on the best spells just because everyone else is weaker negates the point of playing a spellcaster if you're limited to the same progression as a class which is designed to do pretty much everything to a small degree rather then focussing on 1 thing).

    Stopping free spells after level 4 sounds good as well. Would you let players buy spells, or would they need quests to get them?
    Last edited by Tempest Fennac; 2008-03-17 at 05:40 AM.
    "It doesn't matter what you think I'm supposed to be, 'cause I myself know all too well." Line from "King of My World" by Saliva.
    Good itP 2009 winner,Cleric itP Winner.
    Taking Reiki requests. PM me for details.
    Spoiler
    Show


  28. - Top - End - #58
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Appalachian Mountains

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    Note- the plan was to give the bard's spell progression, not the bard's spell list. The wizard spell list, with some tweaks, is what I was planning on doing. For example, fireball being a 2nd level spell. The Bard was being upgraded to a full BAB class with the paladin spell progression and a d8 HD (with its spells being compressed into 4 levels).

    Anyway, in Basic, you got Read Magic, + 1 spell chosen by the DM at 1st level. Each level, you'd get a new spell, chosen by the DM. This stopped at 4th level. You got most of your spells from scrolls, captured spellbooks, etc.
    Last edited by Skjaldbakka; 2008-03-17 at 05:47 AM.
    Aratos Tell
    HP:53/53 AC:19,FlatFooted:16,Touch:13
    Active Effects: Speak w/Animals
    Spells Prepared: Cure Minor Wounds*4, Flare, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Animal Messenger, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration, Hold Animal, Cure Mod. Wounds*2, Speak w/Plants

    Megiddo
    HP:26/26 PP: 40/40 AC:14,FlatFooted:13,Touch:13
    Active Effects:
    Spells Prepared: Light*2, Burning Hands*2, Protection f/Evil, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, See Invis., Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray*2

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Tempest Fennac's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    West Midlands, UK.

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    I know what you meant about Bard spell progression. That would still mean a lot of great spells not being available at all unless you reduced their level, which could make things complicated (eg: Greater Teleport, Ressurrection, Regenerate (which is brilliant if the DM has traps or other hazards which cause limb loss) and Finger of Death being 4 that aren't broken).

    I don't like the idea of DMs picking my spells like that (mainly because I don't trust other people), but the rest of that system sounds okay.
    "It doesn't matter what you think I'm supposed to be, 'cause I myself know all too well." Line from "King of My World" by Saliva.
    Good itP 2009 winner,Cleric itP Winner.
    Taking Reiki requests. PM me for details.
    Spoiler
    Show


  30. - Top - End - #60
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Appalachian Mountains

    Default Re: Would doing this balance full casters?

    I have no problem with those spells being in the "epic" level range. I of course have to extrapolate that progression, but that's no big deal for me.

    Finger of Death could stand to be a 5th or 6th level spell in that system. Greater Teleport, on the other hand- I have personal bias against the teleportation spells. It would probably be reduced to 5th or 6th level as well, if such bias were not present.
    Aratos Tell
    HP:53/53 AC:19,FlatFooted:16,Touch:13
    Active Effects: Speak w/Animals
    Spells Prepared: Cure Minor Wounds*4, Flare, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Animal Messenger, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration, Hold Animal, Cure Mod. Wounds*2, Speak w/Plants

    Megiddo
    HP:26/26 PP: 40/40 AC:14,FlatFooted:13,Touch:13
    Active Effects:
    Spells Prepared: Light*2, Burning Hands*2, Protection f/Evil, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, See Invis., Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray*2

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •