Swordsage / ??

[The J Pizzel]

Hey gang. I'm looking to play a character that blends well with a swordsage. I'm having a miserable time of it too. They've got MAD already (dex, int, and wis) so finding something to go with it is a pain. I'm looking for a very "sociable" class. Kinda like a swashbuckler, or bard or something of that nature. I want him to be a suavey rapier weilding aristocrat who's got some blade magic that he picked up before he became an aristocrat.

Rules: level 10 (for now), only books are Core and Completes. 32 pt. buy. Thanks in advance.

jP

[Azerian Kelimon]

My suggestion: Stick with Swordsage and barter with our DM to get diplomacy and bluff. And maybe Perform (Badass suavery). You have enough MAD as is, and 32 point buy is very harsh for a swordsage.

[Ascension]

Rogue goes quite well with a Shadow Hand swordsage. Also, if you're going Shadow Hand and want to get more bang for your buck out of the point buy, dump strength and pick up the Shadow Blade feat. Voila! Now you get to add your dex bonus to damage rolls.

You could dip swashbuckler as well just to pick up weapon finesse, but I wouldn't take it any farther. Swordsage needs Wis, swashbuckler needs Int, you're on a 32 point buy.

[AslanCross]

I second Swordsage/Rogue, especially if you're going with Shadow Hand. At least you get Diplomacy as a class skill. Still, that makes you even more MAD. Swordsage does synergize with Rogue in many ways, though. (Assassin's stance, etc)

[sonofzeal]

First off, I think you can dump int for most Swordsages, so that reduces your MAD slightly. Remember, unlike a Swashbuckler, a Swordsage's Insightful Strike is based off of Wis.

As for classes.... Rogue is a good one, since Swordsage can add to your Sneak and give you many good ways to deliver your Sneak damage. Psychic Warrior is an awesome one too, especially with Instant Clarity and Deep Impact, effectively allowing you to resolve your strikes as Touch Attacks every round, and you can aim for Warmind at some point too. I really like Factota/Swordsages too, but then you've got that MAD back, and they're from Dungeonscape anyway. And there's nothing seriously wrong with Swashbuckler either - there's that MAD again, but you've got three stats adding to damage now and that's always a good thing.

[Vortling]

How core is your core? Would your DM perhaps allow the Divine Bard? It would decrease your MAD. Personally I'd find a class with the skills you want on it's list, dip for your first level and take Able Learner then go swordsage the rest of the way. Possible one level dips include the Swashbuckler which gives you Weapon Finesse and skills, Rogue for skills and a little sneak attack, the Divine Bard I linked above, or Factotum if your DM lets you.

[Draz74]

I vote Swashbuckler. You say you're already going for high INT (for skills, I assume?) on your Swordsage. If that's true, you don't really get any more MAD by adding Swashbuckler. Except for needing CHA for social skills ... but you'll have that trouble with any new class, if you're wanting to be a social power.

Also, unless your DM is unusually strict, once you know Assassin's Stance you can learn Daring Outlaw, which will make it so your Swashbuckler levels give you Sneak Attack. (Although, if your DM is average in leniency, you'll only be able to use that Sneak Attack while in a Shadow Hand stance.)

Swashbuckler + Diamond Mind = great flavor.

[Scintillatus]

I have no gorram idea why Warblades and Swordsages use Intelligence and Wisdom. Charismatic, flashy warriors who have little patience for Diplomacy use Intelligence and get Diplomacy as a class skill? Wot? Sword-using magical seekers of truth need to be Wise instead of Intelligent? Eh?

Annoys me, it does. Wouldn't be half as much MAD for the Swordsage if you could use INT for all your bonuses.

[Chronos]

You have enough MAD as is, and 32 point buy is very harsh for a swordsage.

How is a high point buy harsh for MAD? I would expect it to be quite the opposite.

[Ascension]

Also, unless your DM is unusually strict, once you know Assassin's Stance you can learn Daring Outlaw, which will make it so your Swashbuckler levels give you Sneak Attack. (Although, if your DM is average in leniency, you'll only be able to use that Sneak Attack while in a Shadow Hand stance.)

I wouldn't call myself "unusually strict," but that sounds like a really bad idea. I could almost see (cruelly) letting someone take the feat, but benefitting from it? No. Assassin's Stance doesn't scale, and Daring Outlaw specifies that rogue and swashbuckler levels stack for determining SA damage, NOT that your swashubuckler levels give you SA.

[Azerian Kelimon]

How is a high point buy harsh for MAD? I would expect it to be quite the opposite.

32 point buy isn't exactly too high. Maxing a stat (Either STR or WIS) is all but essential, yet doing that pretty much eats all your points.

[Thinker]

32 point buy isn't exactly too high. Maxing a stat (Either STR or WIS) is all but essential, yet doing that pretty much eats all your points.

Why would it be "all but essential"? Having a 16 instead of an 18 will get you by just fine.

Str 16
Dex 14
Con 10
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 10

[CASTLEMIKE]

Edit I missed the source book sentence.

Swordsage -10 or 11 with a level dip into Marshal -1 (Motivate Aura Wisdom) at some point and a level dip into either at L9 or when you level at L13 Warblade -1**

All Abilities are 14 except for Intelligence which is 10 before adding +3 to either Charisma or Wisdom for leveling and making that ability 17.

**Depending on how Sword Sage maneuvers would work to provide the prerequisites for the 3 Warblade Maneuvers with an Initiator level of 5 for prolonged combats with Warblade recovery for those 3 Warblade maneuvers only.

Edit:
Motivate Aura Wisdom applies Char Mod to Wisdom (+5 to AC without any magic items). Consider what additional magical wealth can do to enhance those two attributes.

Spread the magic around a little:

With wealth purchase a +2 or better Cloak of Charisma and a +2 or better Phylactery of Wisdom.


P.S. IMO in a leveling up build you can get a lot with a Swordsage for losing 2 or 4 levels which only loses the build 1 or 2 Initiator levels since all classes provide at least +1/2 each level.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Lesse. No CON, no max stat, average highish DEX, and most importantly, no INT or CHA, which goes against the purpose of the build. Definetely, this falls short. This is the reason I prefer one on one pointbuys. Much more solid.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The best thing to go with Swordsage is... Swordsage.

Seriously, that's one class you want to take all the way to the end, unless you want to PrC out to Master of Nine.

[The_Snark]

Castlemike: Motivate Intelligence adds your Charisma mod to Intelligence checks and Intelligence-based skill checks. Unless you can somehow convince your DM that your AC is a check, the marshal part's fairly worthless.

I'd second staying with swordsage, really. Taking Martial Study for a White Raven maneuver will give you Diplomacy as a class skill; at that point, you've got most major social skills (lacking only Bluff). Beginning with a level or two of rogue could also work, especially with Able Learner thrown in.

[Lord Tataraus]

The best thing to go with Swordsage is... Swordsage.

Seriously, that's one class you want to take all the way to the end, unless you want to PrC out to Master of Nine.

Seriously, this is the best answer. Swordsage is great all the way through. And to the people who say 32 point buy isn't enough, 32 is ,my group's standard and it works great for us. We want to play games that aren't to the max and you need to make sacrifices. We commonly have 8's or even 6's in stats and play them out. We even had a yoda-like guy with 4 strength, but amazing dex.

[Xefas]

I'm gonna go ahead and point out the Sublime Swashbuckler.

All the swashbucklerness you need with all the Tome of Battle goodness you love.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Tatarus, you KNOW an eight is a slight handicap, a 6 a big handicap, and a four a CRIPPLING FLAW, right? What's the point of playing high fantasy if you're going to have a weakspot your enemy can hit "for massive damage!" That's the province of grittier, lower power games.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Castlemike: Motivate Intelligence adds your Charisma mod to Intelligence checks and Intelligence-based skill checks. Unless you can somehow convince your DM that your AC is a check, the marshal part's fairly worthless.

If a DM ruled the Carmendine Monk feat doesn't work I'd just drop the Factotum class levels for Swordsage levels with the 14 in Wisdom and the 10 in Intelligence to start and change the Marshal Motivate Aura to Wisdom and add the +2 for leveling to Charisma or Wisdom which would provide the +5 to AC before magic items.

[Lord Tataraus]

Tatarus, you KNOW an eight is a slight handicap, a 6 a big handicap, and a four a CRIPPLING FLAW, right? What's the point of playing high fantasy if you're going to have a weakspot your enemy can hit "for massive damage!" That's the province of grittier, lower power games.

Hm...does Achilles ring a bell? Raistlin? And many others. Its the type of high fantasy where the heros have flaws, they aren't perfect. We don't want perfect heroes. Everyone has their own style of play, and high fantasy works great with crippling flaws (that one 4 str with a one-time thing and a cohort, it had a very specific build that worked).

[playswithfire]

If you want to be a swordsage, I join with those saying just be a swordsage, maybe going into master of 9 or bloodclaw master, but if you want a diplomatic type with just a bit of blade magic

Human Swashbuckler 4/Swordsage 1/Swashbuckler+1/Invisible Blade* 3/Swordsage+1

Feats
1 Point Blank Shot
H your choice
3 your choice
6 Shadow Blade
9 Daring Outlaw
and bonus feats of Weapon Finesse and weapon focus(shadow hand)

Definitely try for Carmendine monk if you can.
BAB 9, 7d6 including assassin's stance that you'll get at level 10. Dex and Int two damage with your dagger(s if you want to TWF) and you'll have 6 2nd level maneuvers and 1 3rd level maneuver

*this, as I understand it, was the original invisible blade that got split into the CWar invisible blade and the master thrower

I like the martial study(white raven) idea though

[Chronicled]

Swordsage all the way.

Lesse. No CON, no max stat, average highish DEX, and most importantly, no INT or CHA, which goes against the purpose of the build. Definetely, this falls short. This is the reason I prefer one on one pointbuys. Much more solid.

With a swordsage's AC, reflex saves, and evasion, they can afford to not boost Con more than most classes. Built right, they only need Dex, Wis, and some Con (and ideally, no Int penalty).

A max stat has never been a requirement for a solid build. I'd drop Str from where it was suggested for more Dex and go Shadow Blade, but that's just me. 32 point buy is quite generous; I often give players a 28 point buy, and they still end up with very powerful characters.

Int isn't needed for the purpose of this build, with the amount of skill points a swordsage gets already (not to mention, the OP didn't specify that they wanted a genius character). Furthermore, you don't need Cha to have a suave character--it's all in how you RP it.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Of course a max stat was never a requirement. But the difference tends, for some reason, to help tremendously. Especially in the case of anyone who has Save based attacks, where pumping said stat sky high to get a brutal save is key. Plus, no CON means one hit in high levels and you pretty much drop dead, which is never a good thing (And someone WILL get a 20 someday.). Also, you cannot drop STR form the build, for a reason: Diamond mind saves are fueled off of STR, which makes it a key component of the build. Not to mention Tiger Claw.

[Draz74]

I wouldn't call myself "unusually strict," but that sounds like a really bad idea. I could almost see (cruelly) letting someone take the feat, but benefitting from it? No. Assassin's Stance doesn't scale, and Daring Outlaw specifies that rogue and swashbuckler levels stack for determining SA damage, NOT that your swashubuckler levels give you SA.

Sounds unusually strict to me. Here's my reasons:

- Right. Your swashbuckler levels (3 to 4 of them) are stacking with your rogue levels (zero of them) to determine your sneak attack. So you sneak attack as a level 3 or 4 rogue. (I'm a physicist; yes, zero is a very real and useful number.)

- It's really not overpowered at all. A build that's already not optimized ... taking a feat that gives +2d6 sneak attack. And nothing else. And that 2d6 sneak attack only even works some of the time (when in a shadow hand stance). And the earliest the feat can possibly be taken is in the mid-levels of the game.

If you thought I meant that your sneak attack would ever increase beyond +4d6 (2 from assassin's stance, 2 from Daring Outlaw), then I can see your point. But that's not what I had in mind at all.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Taking the Martial Study feat for a White Raven maneuver will give you diplomacy as a class skill.

[The_Snark]

If a DM ruled the Carmendine Monk feat doesn't work I'd just drop the Factotum class levels for Swordsage levels with the 14 in Wisdom and the 10 in Intelligence to start and change the Marshal Motivate Aura to Wisdom and add the +2 for leveling to Charisma or Wisdom which would provide the +5 to AC before magic items.

Er? Carmendine Monk doesn't have much to do with it; it's just that the Marshal's (motivate ability) auras only increase skill checks and ability checks based on that ability. They don't do anything at all for other uses of that ability score, like saves, attacks, or AC, and I can't see anything you have there that will change that.

Am I missing what you're trying to do, or something?

Az- Diamond Mind has exactly two strikes that give saves; Disrupting Blow and Mind Strike. The first is good, the second is probably a skip; but nevertheless, saves are not an incredibly critical part of a Diamond Mind swordsage. You can just avoid using those two and take other good maneuvers—there are plenty of them out there. Tiger Claw has a few more strikes that give saves, but it still isn't completely necessary.

[Diamondeye]

I'd just go straight Swordsage. If you really wanted Diplomacy and your DM wasn't willing to barter you a skill for it or something, playing as a human (I assume you want to be a human) gives you an extra feat to take a White Raven maneuver and get Diplomacy that way, as someone mentioned above.

On a 32-point buy, going the "Suave Swordsman" route that you seem to like, I would go:

10 STR
12 CON
15 DEX
12 INT
16 WIS
12 CHA

This seems to line up with the urbane, sophisticated "feel" you seem to want. Weapon finesse, raiper, and a heavy emphasis on Diamond Mind with some Shadow Hand and Setting Sun thrown in, and you're all set. It also makes the attribute increases easy as you go; just keep raising DEX. Alternately, if you decide after 4th level that you need points somewhere else, your DEX and WIS are now at a solid +3 each, and you can put the 8/12 and 16/20 points elsewhere.

Swordsage is my personal favorite class, and if I were going to take a straight 20-level progression in one class, this would be my top choice with Warblade a probable second. With the ability distribution above, you could also take a small dip into Warblade for White Raven, possibly go as high as 5th level for the bonus feat.

(For the optimizers out there, I'm going for feel, not just mechanical strengh.)

[CASTLEMIKE]

Er? Carmendine Monk doesn't have much to do with it; it's just that the Marshal's (motivate ability) auras only increase skill checks and ability checks based on that ability. They don't do anything at all for other uses of that ability score, like saves, attacks, or AC, and I can't see anything you have there that will change that.

Am I missing what you're trying to do, or something?

The Carmendine Monk feat was for using Intelligence instead of Wisdom for AC.

I disagree it depends on how the Minor Aura Motivate Wisdom is interpreted when it says "Bonus on Wisdom checks and Wisdom-based skill checks" in the MHB since AC is based off the Wisdom check IMO.

Yes, originally I was utilizing 3 levels of Factotum which is Intelligence based for all the capstone benefits it would provide the PC with Cunning Defense (Int to AC) and Brains over Brawn (Int to St & Dex checks) using Inspiration Points along with that level one spell like ability 1/day before I realized Factotum wasn't an option for the OP.

[Leon]

The best thing to go with Swordsage is...

Swordsage//Swordsage