Vow of Poverty old man that kicks butt

[Glyde]

The Vow of Poverty - a feat that allows one to give up material goods for oddly powerful abilities. Pretty much your generic old guy in homemade clothes, a big hat, sandals and a walking stick (Think cheesy kung fu movie old man). My DM and I have decided that in order to set the characters straight, I'll have to temporarily take control of an exalted character of... 'Interesting' proportions.

The rules are simple - Human, old age, Sacred Vow - Vow of Poverty at first level, ECL of 6 (Maybe 7). I'm mostly having trouble with the choice of class.

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Vow of Poverty:

Fighter and Cleric have both crossed my mind, though *anything* could lead to an interesting partner. Any suggestions?

[Azerian Kelimon]

I'm half tempted to shout "MUNCHKINRY!", half tempted to say "finally, a balanced VoP!" I'll have to look at it in depth.

[Glyde]

He won't last long. He'll be filling in the gap while my normal character is er... 'out of commission'.

The amazing number of feats he could amount in such a short span of time is what is really throwing me off. I hate having a huge choice <_>

I have most of the books, so almost anything goes. Specifically stuff from the Book of Exalted Deeds would be great.

[dman11235]

Now, I'm really confused at Azerian Kelimon's post. Wha?

Anyway, you could always go with the typical monk (Fist of the Forest if you have CChamp!). Works well flavor wise with the feat (though not so much mechanics wise). For mechanics, straight druid benefits the most from VoP. Cleric doesn't work without DM fiat due to holy symbols costing money. Fighters are way too item dependent to make a good one. Incarnate might work (or Totemist) if you have MoI. And binder might work too if you have ToM. Spell casters just win at life (sorcerers are my favorite and wizards are inherently shallow and un-charitable (the spell book costs money)) Keep in mind that VoP is weaker than having items until you reach epic levels, at which it becomes better. On the wizards boards there is the epic vow. Play to the strength of sheer numbers and you might be fine.

[expirement10K14]

VoP monks can actually be amazing. The monks inability to use weapons makes VoP's main setback not effect you.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Now, I'm really confused at Azerian Kelimon's post. Wha?

Anyway, you could always go with the typical monk (Fist of the Forest if you have CChamp!). Works well flavor wise with the feat (though not so much mechanics wise). For mechanics, straight druid benefits the most from VoP. Cleric doesn't work without DM fiat due to holy symbols costing money. Fighters are way too item dependent to make a good one. Incarnate might work (or Totemist) if you have MoI. And binder might work too if you have ToM. Spell casters just win at life (sorcerers are my favorite and wizards are inherently shallow and un-charitable (the spell book costs money)) Keep in mind that VoP is weaker than having items until you reach epic levels, at which it becomes better. On the wizards boards there is the epic vow. Play to the strength of sheer numbers and you might be fine.

The reason I'm thinking that way is simple: Look at the number of things you get! It's very easy to overload a character with features to compensate, and i have a bad feeling there's something grossly broken in there.

[dman11235]

Monks are heavily item dependent though. They need those AC boosting items to have a remotely decent AC (without PrCs like FotF), and they need attack and damage boosting things to be viable in melee.

No, why are you saying "finally, a balanced VoP!"? He has the original in there.

Also, what of those things would a character with wealth get? All of it, typically. Except for the regeneration (the ring's not worth it) and the +8 ability item (until epic). And the feats (you run out of good ones fast). A character with wealth will have more +6 enhancements and a higher deflection/natural armor bonus/resistance bonus. I don't think there is anything grossly broken in the feat. Except maybe in the hands of druids, but that's a druid. And maybe at epic in the hands of a multi-class monk. Maybe.

[mostlyharmful]

VoP monks can actually be amazing. The monks inability to use weapons makes VoP's main setback not effect you.

Flight, miss chance, DR penetration, skill boosters, invisibility, potions of all stripes... There's a LOT that a none caster of any sort gives up with VoP and that's not even taking into account out of combat problems like tolls, renting passage on ships, spellcasting for hire for transport, info retrieval & status condition aliviation.

Casters can somewhat get around this and of them Druid and Sorc are the only core that don't need houserules to fit VoP.

[Glyde]

Remember, the guy won't last long. He's only there to put the evil characters in their place. He's only going to be around for 6th or 7th level if everything goes well.

Divine symbols aren't a problem. There are a couple ways to circumvent it, one being the *reason* he's here, the second being that he could just carve one out of wood that works just as well.

Cleric is still looking fairly good. If I were to get a high wisdom, then Intuitive attack, he'd be hitting a fair amount at that level. Combine that with Spikes on his wooden weapon and you're doing a good amount of damage.

Another thing is that "Characters with wealth" aren't too much of a problem. Our party is very poor for the level we're at, right now. Our groups don't tend to play with items like "CIRCLET OF AMAZING +100 STR LOLZ". They just detract from a characters individuality.

[dman11235]

Spikes as in a spell? Or spikes as in an item? Cause the second one can't be used. Also, druids: natural attacks. Monks with a level of Shiba Protector (OA) if possible and Intuitive attack: wisdom twice to attack and once to damage. At this level flight isn't a problem, and if you aren't going to use him after level 8 or so you won't need flight. If you were a higher level (10+) I'd say do a sorcerer/monk/enlightened fist. Might be able to have it work now though. But remember: charisma and not wisdom: Ascetic Mage (CAdv).

BTW: stereotypical old man who whups butt in anime and uses nothing but kung fu: unarmed swordsage with VoP.

[mostlyharmful]

Divine symbols aren't a problem. There are a couple ways to circumvent it, one being the *reason* he's here, the second being that he could just carve one out of wood that works just as well.

The moment it's carved well enough to serve as a holy symbol it takes on the value of the holy symbol. If you make it and carry it around then its clearly a possession of yours. If it's a valuable possession of yours that isn't on the list (remember VoP isn't a matter of not having any money or valuables, its adhereing to a list of whats allowed which doesn't include a holy symbol) then you forfit the feat and all benefits.

That being said, adding a wooden symbol to the list or letting them tatoo a symbol onto their chests before taking the feat that works the same are both good houserules.

[CASTLEMIKE]

ECS Cloistered Cleric - 5, Sovereign Speaker -2.

Spellcasting as a Cleric -6, +3 BAB, Doesn't need a Holy Symbol anymore as a SS-2 (Could always carve one out of wood or have another cleric pray one up for him and VoP doesn't preclude a divine caster from having a holy symbol unless it is an expensive one since the VoP feat on page 48 allows the PC to carry and use a spell component pouch (5GP value in the PHB) since it doesn't say in the PHB that Wooden Holy Symbols (1GP) are not contained in the spell component pouch in fact the PHB says Holy Symbol Silver or Wood (1GP) A holy symbol focuses positive energy. A cleric or paladin uses it as the focus for his spells and as a tool for turning undead.


He gets Knowledge +4 other domains so he could take the travel domain for Fly.

Factotum -3, Marshal -1 (Motivate Aura Intelligence), Swordsage -2 (Monk variant), Warblade -1 could be pretty interesting with IPs and using the Carmendine Monk Feat for Int to AC instead of Wis.

Gestalt Paladin - 6//Favored Soul - 6 Saint

[dman11235]

VoP has a specific set of things allowed, and holy symbol is not one of them. I, however, HR it that a simple wooden one counts and doesn't disobey the feat.

[CASTLEMIKE]

VoP has a specific set of things allowed, and holy symbol is not one of them. I, however, HR it that a simple wooden one counts and doesn't disobey the feat.

Yes it does but it also says the PC with a VoP can have a spellcasting pouch (5 GP) . It doesn't say arcane or divine spellcasting pouch or limit it or specify it to certain classes like only sorcerers or wizards and not druids or clerics or noncasters even.

A holy symbol is a divine focus for divine spellcasting which makes it a component.

Check where the holy symbol/divine focus is located in the spell description under component

Eschew Materials would also do the trick since DF is list under components in spells and valued at 1 GP.

Since a cleric needs one to cast his spells no reason there aren't several different types of holy symbols in the divine spellcasting pouch (Amulet, Talisman, Necklace, Holy Signet Ring of Office or other Holy Icon of significance to the faith like small prayer books) to facilitate divine spellcasting out in the field away from the church or temple.

For Roleplaying purposes this is a nice way for a VoP PC particularly a holy man type PC to be able to give a NPC a "nice" but modest gift in game. Casters can get them with a spell from the SC other PCs can craft them out of wood or other material.

Worldly Focus in FoE also fulfills the requirement for a Holy Symbol.

[slexlollar89]

Be a warlock. Nothing says Eldritch Blast can't be non lethal, and they can get some mad invocations. The only downside is no UMD. Take Darkness and Devil's Sight with the feat from Drow of the Underdark that allows darkness sp to be used as swift actions and you can never be harmed.

[Cuddly]

The reason I'm thinking that way is simple: Look at the number of things you get! It's very easy to overload a character with features to compensate, and i have a bad feeling there's something grossly broken in there.

lolerskates.

You're looking at the ORIGINAL VoP and saying it's overpowered? Hahahahaha!

[dyslexicfaser]

VoP is solid at, say, levels 1-10. But after that, the lack of flight and DR penetration can screw you in various circumstances, if you're a melee class.

It's generally acknowledged that VoP druids are the best use of that feat, since they can wildshape and hang onto their exalted bonuses.

[Cuddly]

Touch of Golden Ice would be a brutal feat at those low levels, when there's an actual chance stuff would fail their will saves.

[Azerian Kelimon]

lolerskates.

You're looking at the ORIGINAL VoP and saying it's overpowered? Hahahahaha!

Sorry, but that's certainly not the VoP in my BoED. I have it right here and it onyl gives you stuff every second level.

[dyslexicfaser]

Dunno what to tell ya, AK, but that's how it is in my copy of BoED.

[Cuddly]

Sorry, but that's certainly not the VoP in my BoED. I have it right here and it onyl gives you stuff every second level.

There's a table that sums it all up on like page 30 or something. That's definitely the VoP in the book.

Now, if someone hadn't told you that VoP was bad, would you have been able to tell if it was bad? Because a lot of players, and DMs, have the same reaction that you just did- "wow, look at all that stuf! It must be awesome!" without realizing how much versatility and power comes from magic items in D&D.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Seeing how there was a feat that granted you flight, one for invisibility, and a last one that could replicate any spell from 5th level or lower at will, no.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If you have ToB, a VoP Swordsage (Unarmed Variant) can be quite interesting.

Basically, you trade off your light armor proficency (since you can't afford any anyways) for monk unarmed damge progression.

Focus on the four Disciplines which allow Unarmed as a favored weapon: Shadow Hand, Setting Sun, Stone Dragon, and Tiger Claw.

Congratulatoins, you're a Monk, in the classic sense of the word (or at least in the Kung Fu Flicks sense of the word). You've taken a vow of poverty, probably bald, and can kick major ass unarmed.

[GammaPaladin]

There's no reason not to take maneuvers in other disciplines though, it's not like there's any penalty for not using a preferred weapon. All that matters are what Disciplines you tag for your Discipline Focus, and that works no matter what stance or technique you're using. Except for Defensive Stance of course.

Though, presumably you'll be a dex monkey, so Shadow Hand + Shadow Blade + Weapon Finesse is a given.

[Squash Monster]

Seconded on unarmed swordsage. There's a vop unarmed swordsage in my group and he does very well. Fun combo, too.

And vop is awesome for druid. Heck, so is being an old man. It's one of the most powerful druids you can make.

[dman11235]

Yes it does but it also says the PC with a VoP can have a spellcasting pouch (5 GP) . It doesn't say arcane or divine spellcasting pouch or limit it or specify it to certain classes like only sorcerers or wizards and not druids or clerics or noncasters even.

A holy symbol is a divine focus for divine spellcasting which makes it a component.

Check where the holy symbol/divine focus is located in the spell description under component

Eschew Materials would also do the trick since DF is list under components in spells and valued at 1 GP.

Since a cleric needs one to cast his spells no reason there aren't several different types of holy symbols in the divine spellcasting pouch (Amulet, Talisman, Necklace, Holy Signet Ring of Office or other Holy Icon of significance to the faith like small prayer books) to facilitate divine spellcasting out in the field away from the church or temple.

For Roleplaying purposes this is a nice way for a VoP PC particularly a holy man type PC to be able to give a NPC a "nice" but modest gift in game. Casters can get them with a spell from the SC other PCs can craft them out of wood or other material.

Worldly Focus in FoE also fulfills the requirement for a Holy Symbol.

You realize that DF/=material component. Focuses in general are not material components, and as such do not come in a spell component pouch (which is the same arcane or divine), and cannot be ignored with Eschew Materials. Also, component /= material component.

@Azerian: what? where be these overpowered feats? Also, it is clearly a scan of that page in the BoED.

And I second (third?) the unarmed swordsage (as I was the first to suggest it).

And an easy way to get around the lack of flight: Raptoran. +0 LA races that grants flight. I love those things. And make it shadow (LoM) and grab the Darkstalker feat (also LoM) to cover the invisibility thing. You just need a good hide/move silently score. Even fool blindsight! In addition, this will get you fast healing.

@Gamma: sure you aren't restricted to using preferred weapons, but generally the paths that have a certain weapon as a favored weapon will, well, favor it more. And those four are the four that make the monk image (Setting Sun for tactical maneuvers, shadow hand for supernatural and sneaky stuff, stone dragon for the punch through wall effect, and tiger claw for the feral aspects).

[Smiley_]

I got VoP to work with a build that is kinda interesting.

Druid/Apostle of Peace

You have the vow of non-violence, high charisma and wisdom scores, the ability to shatter weapons that hit you without damage, enchanted or otherwise, subdual spell metamagic and strike, and a nice spell list from the AoP.

I need to dig up the details, but it works.

[Zincorium]

Seeing how there was a feat that granted you flight, one for invisibility, and a last one that could replicate any spell from 5th level or lower at will, no.

Er, you mind telling me where these feats are? Because they seem a bit more useful than any other feat. Anywhere.


Lastly, compare the benefits of VoP to a character equipped with full wealth by level by a reasonably intelligent player. VoP is ok, but it doesn't give a single thing that can't be replicated by magic items for a reasonable expense, and gold will buy you much better ability scores when you include the various tomes in the analysis.

VoP is for when you either can't use items very well (druid in wildshape) or your DM is being very stingy with gold/takes away items and throws you into jail cells at unpredictable intervals.

[Glyde]

The vow of nonviolence/peace is taking it too far, I think. The evil characters' weapons are expensive, and having them shatter over my head doing no damage might be a little much OOC.

Unarmed swordsage seems the best bet aside from cleric. Also, I sort of thought it was assumed that VoP let you use simple things that you created yourself, such as clothing, and that a carving of a divine symbol would work. If not, I'm sure it could be easily houseruled.

Swordsage is in Tomb of Battle I gather, then? At least that's what I can see from all these acronyms that I'm unfamiliar with >_>

I'm going for mostly wisdom with Intuitive attack and the other one someone mentioned. Being an old man gives a boost to the mental stats and a penalty to the physical ones if I remember correctly.

And as a quick aside, arguing about wealth being better than VoP is totally out of the question 100% and really doesn't contribute anything. There are many times when people play the game for more than the mechanics of things.

[CASTLEMIKE]

You realize that DF/=material component. Focuses in general are not material components, and as such do not come in a spell component pouch (which is the same arcane or divine), and cannot be ignored with Eschew Materials. Also, component /= material component.

You are arguing a cleric cannot acquire and use a divine focus under the VoP limitations without breaking the VoP in all games under RAW except by using a house rule which is what I disagree with.

This is the same VoP that lets the PC carry around simple weapons (Some are expensive simple weapons like heavy crossbows at 50 gp).

The VoP RAW does not prohibit the use of "simple weapon holy symbols" (The minimal 1 GP market value added to a quarterstaff or a light mace to retain spellcasting wouldn't break the Vow since it only stipulates no masterwork or magical weapons).