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    paladin_carvin's Avatar

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    Default [3.5/d20/4]Mixing ideas (need 4th ed expert)

    So, I finally played 4th edition. It was as I expected, and I will be sticking with 3.5. But then I had some ideas. Why not 'steal' some of the ideas? After all, not everything from 4th was bad. Realistically, you could patch much of the problems with 3.5 with the good things from 4th. So, here are some thoughts.

    Likes:

    -I like the idea of levels influencing mods. After all, having an 18 Str at level 16 should make a difference.

    -I like the idea of variable saves. I like that some people fort save with Str while others with Con.

    -I like the three fold turn. Attack/Move/Free. I just don't think every kind of move needs to be categorized and filed and detailed.

    -Concentrated number of skills has been something I've thought needed to be done for a long time.

    -Some of the switch-up of attacks of opp, flat footed, touch, etc. I didn't catch it all though.

    Ideas:

    -Introduce Level * .5 mod to things.

    -Simplify skills into trained and untrained. Trained skills = (.5 * mod * lvl)+lvl and untrained = (.5 * mod * lvl). You have a number of trained skills = class + Int mod.

    -Some skill bonuses will need to be changed because of this. If anyone can think of an easier or better way to determine skill level, let me know.

    -Some characters can use Str for their Fort mod. If they do this, they gain 1 hp per con mod per level. If they don't, and use con for their mod, they gain 2 hp per con per level. Con has few uses other than Fort and HP; this should balance things.

    -Divine characters can choose to use Charisma for Will saves. Otherwise, Wisdom.

    -Certain characters can use Wisdom for Reflex saves. I know it's sticky, but Int doesn't make sense for Reflex. Anywho, those who use Wisdom can also use it on their AC; it just doesn't add as much.

    -Split moves into the threefold turns.

    -Sort out FF, Touch, AoO, etc.

    And some more stuff... I'll bet this has been thought of before...

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    Default Re: [3.5/d20/4]Mixing ideas (need 4th ed expert)

    Oh, and if anyone can think of other really good features of 4th ed, I'm all ears.

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    Default Re: [3.5/d20/4]Mixing ideas (need 4th ed expert)

    I can't say I'm a 4th ed expert (I far prefer 3.5), so don't expect any help from me there, but I'd be glad to help out with balance issues. I'm generally pretty good at spotting flaws that can be exploited, or just making the most of what I'm given.
    Assuming that 3.5 is the baseline to which other things are added:
    From what you've got so far, I'd say that Wis synergy is looking to be the easy exploit, as you can get it to two saves and AC without any class abilities. That in itself is pretty good by 3.5 standards. Considering that the CoDzilla is based entirely of Wisdom already, and the scariest theoretical character just got scarier at 0 cost.
    Another thing: Cha to Will saves makes sense, but for divine characters it is a suboptimal choice in most situations. Unless you're a pally who likes getting Cha to saves a lot, it doesn't seem like a benefit to the main Divine classes. Druids, clerics, archivists... Charisma isn't the main stat for any of them. Then again, favoured souls' might get a bit of use out of this unless I'm misremembering their casting stat.
    The skill system (Particularly DCs) will need to be revised if all those fixes are implemented. Opposed checks will probably need to be the main focus, with set DC tasks less commonplace. Otherwise, it'll be too easy to beat most skill DCs.
    More advice to come.
    Last edited by Malacode; 2009-06-20 at 10:01 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5/d20/4]Mixing ideas (need 4th ed expert)

    You've got a point. Well, maybe make Charisma the standard for will saves (make sense) and that Divine character can, if they wish, use Wisdom for the saves; but it's only +1, rather than the +2. I'm thinking that saves will be higher, hp about the same and damage will be higher (especially non-magical low level damage). I think, since I want a standard hp per level for each class, everyone gets a free set of hp as if they already had a level at level one. For instance, if the fighter's hp is 6 and has a con of 14 he has 16 hp at level 1 and will go up 8 each level.

    Solid input, thank you.

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    Default Re: [3.5/d20/4]Mixing ideas (need 4th ed expert)

    Quote Originally Posted by paladin_carvin View Post
    Ideas:

    -Introduce Level * .5 mod to things.

    -Simplify skills into trained and untrained. Trained skills = (.5 * mod * lvl)+lvl and untrained = (.5 * mod * lvl). You have a number of trained skills = class + Int mod.

    -Some skill bonuses will need to be changed because of this. If anyone can think of an easier or better way to determine skill level, let me know.
    Ah, how about just using it the same way as SAGA: +5 bonus for training, +5 bonus for Skill Focus (I like this better than the +3 from Skill Focus in D&D, makes the feat worth slightly more), +ability modifier, +1/2 level?

    Using this, you'd have to change any skill point requirements for prestige class entry... I'd recommend doing so by requiring a base character level and training in the skill.

    Some skills could definitely be rolled together, like Disable Device and Open Lock (opening a lock is disabling a device, isn't it?). 4E might have gone too far or not far enough with that, but that's for you to decide.

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    Default Re: [3.5/d20/4]Mixing ideas (need 4th ed expert)

    Hmm, thanks for the input Mando.

    I'm not sure what SAGA is, but it sounds interesting. I still like the .5*level*mod because it means that your abilities really mean something.

    You've got a good point on Prestige class... I think I will go with what you said.

    I actually have made a list of combined skills. I do like 4th edition's; just not as much as mine.

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    Default Re: [3.5/d20/4]Mixing ideas (need 4th ed expert)

    Quote Originally Posted by paladin_carvin View Post
    -I like the idea of levels influencing mods. After all, having an 18 Str at level 16 should make a difference.
    That one is easy - add more ability score boosts.

    -I like the idea of variable saves. I like that some people fort save with Str while others with Con.
    That one is also easy, although part of it (in particular having intelligence improve you armor and reflex) clashes with the (attempted) verisimilitude in 3E.

    -I like the three fold turn. Attack/Move/Free. I just don't think every kind of move needs to be categorized and filed and detailed.
    3E already does that.

    -Concentrated number of skills has been something I've thought needed to be done for a long time.
    Also easy, although craft/profession are a significant, if minor, part of 3E design.

    -Simplify skills into trained and untrained. Trained skills = (.5 * mod * lvl)+lvl and untrained = (.5 * mod * lvl). You have a number of trained skills = class + Int mod.
    I'd think that given 3E philosophy, untrained skills should not improve by level. After all, they're untrained. In 3E you're supposed to be able to get far better in any skill than an untrained person of the same level; in 4E, you're precisely not supposed to be able to do that.

    -Divine characters can choose to use Charisma for Will saves. Otherwise, Wisdom.
    Given that they have a high wisdom anyway, they'll likely all pick wisdom.

    -Certain characters can use Wisdom for Reflex saves. I know it's sticky, but Int doesn't make sense for Reflex.
    Wisdom makes precisely as little sense for reflex as does intelligence.
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    Default Re: [3.5/d20/4]Mixing ideas (need 4th ed expert)

    Introduce Level * .5 mod to things.
    This will probably see the biggest benefit to ability checks, ie. level/2 + ability to pry a door off the hinges. That way, a more experienced character has a better chance of doing stupidly amazing things.

    Adding it to the skill ranks system will take a bit more work.

    Simplify skills into trained and untrained.
    You're probably best off making trained skills equal to (level + 3) and untrained skills into half that. This way, there is less bookkeeping for you at first, as the DCs stay roughly the same while you work the bugs out.

    You'll need to make some modifications, though. DC 15 Balance and Tumble checks become obscenely easy to make when everyone has a +8 bonus to checks.

    Some characters can use Str for their Fort mod.
    I don't think increasing HP is a solution for anything; 3.5e already has a HP bloat problem. One option I've heard is to allow Weapon Finesse to add Dexterity to both to-hit and damage rolls on appropriate weapons; doing so releases Strength from being necessary on all characters. It will probably need some work, though, given how important Strength is to everyone in melee.

    Divine characters can choose to use Charisma for Will saves. Otherwise, Wisdom.
    Interesting, but virtually all Divine spellcasters need Wisdom for their abilities.

    Certain characters can use Wisdom for Reflex saves.
    Monks, Clerics, and Druids will love you, as it either gives them a free buff or takes away MAD and puts it all into one stat.

    Split moves into the threefold turns.
    Easily doable; the biggest problem is what to do with the Full Attack option.

    Sort out FF, Touch, AoO, etc.
    Not quite sure what you're saying here, though.

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    Default Re: [3.5/d20/4]Mixing ideas (need 4th ed expert)

    Wow... lots... well, first and foremost, remember that I'm trying to mix ideas, not maintain a philosophy.

    1. Call me old fashioned, but I don't like ability scores changing too much. I also don't like them all that high. But that is me. I never played 1st or 2nd, but I swear sometimes it is in my blood...

    2. I think it's completely reasonable for Wisdom (though, not int) to increase AC. It's the same reason why Monks get Wis bonus to AC. It's all about prediction and moving before needed.

    3. Well, it's true, you can do all three of those in a turn... but I think expanding free (or, simple) actions and limiting the amount would make combat a bit more flexible.

    4. You have a point on the untrained, I'll make those not so high.

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