Help with a Jade Phoenix Mage...

[SamTheCleric]

So, In my mass of character creation, I've decided to see how useful a Jade Phoenix Mage is... it looks like a pretty strong class...

(Still ECL 11)

Human Warblade 2/Wizard 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 5

I know I want to do Warblade 1/Wizard 4/Warblade +1... but I'm not exactly sure how to calculate the initiator levels of a multiclassed martial adept. Is it half of the non-martial class?

If so, at 6th character level I take my second level of warblade and have 4 levels of wizard, so my initiator level is 4 (and thus I can take a second level manuever).

Furthermore, what feats are good for a JPM?

(Core, PHB2, All Complete, All Races, ToB.)

Thank you in advance.

[Diamondeye]

Jade Phoenix Mage grants maneuvers so your initiator level should be JPM + Warblade. At the moment I don't have ToB handy, but off the top of my head I'd say any PrC that grants maneuvers counts as a martial adept class.

The thing that's a pain in the ass with JPM is that it only grants Desert Wind and Devoted Spirit maneuvers, and neither of those is a Warblade discipline, so you have to build a new maneuver progression.

[Douglas]

If so, at 6th character level I take my second level of warblade and have 4 levels of wizard, so my initiator level is 4 (and thus I can take a second level manuever).

Correct.

Furthermore, what feats are good for a JPM?

(Core, PHB2, All Complete, All Races, ToB.)

Thank you in advance.

Arcane Strike is good for almost any gish. JPM gets something similar as a class feature at level one, but there are several significant differences that make which one is better circumstantial, plus you can use both at once by expending two spell slots (Arcane Strike is a free action) and they stack.

Ask your DM if he'll approve a houserule that PrCs get the maneuver-swapping ability of the base classes. If he wants to know why, point out that Crusader and Warblade effectively get a new maneuver known at each and every level, while Swordsage gets three every two levels. Then point out that, with the exception of Master of Nine, every PrC gives at best one maneuver every two levels and most are one per three levels or worse. Then ask him if the class features of those classes are really so incredibly powerful compared to the base classes as to warrant a maneuver progression half or one-third as fast.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

You IL will be 9 at that level. Jade Phoenix gives 1-1 progression, so does Warblade. Wizard gives 1 for 2.

But yeah, looks like you know how it works.

[GammaPaladin]

The thing that's a pain in the ass with JPM is that it only grants Desert Wind and Devoted Spirit maneuvers, and neither of those is a Warblade discipline, so you have to build a new maneuver progression.

I think there's a FAQ entry that states that PrC maneuvers get added to the pre-existing Martial Adept class's list if you have one. It's not relevant whether that Martial Adept class would get that power normally. Treat it as if he were a Warblade who took an extra maneuver with Martial Study.

[SamTheCleric]

Hmm, would it be better to go with the four levels of wizard first and then jump into warblade at 5 and 6 to get all 2nd level manuevers?

[Zincorium]

Hmm, would it be better to go with the four levels of wizard first and then jump into warblade at 5 and 6 to get all 2nd level manuevers?

Yes. Since you get the most maneuvers at 1st level, any way you can increase your selection will benefit you greatly. If you're starting at 1 you'll have to suffer through the usual low-level wizard shenanigans, but if you're starting at a point where you have levels in JPM, you're golden.

[SamTheCleric]

Yeah, he'd be a back up for my current cleric (and may switch out soon)... so I'll be starting at level 11 or 12... 5 or 6 levels in JPM.

So, let's see... Initiator level 9, Caster level 8.

How's this?

Manuevers:
Action Before Thought
Battle Leader's Charge
Emerald Razor
Mountain Hammer
Foehammer
Revitalizing Strike
Divine Surge

Stance:
Blood in the Water
Thicket of Blades

Up to 4th level spells...

Int>Dex>Con>Str ? (32 pt buy)

STR 14 DEX 16 CON 14 INT 15 WIS 10 CHA 8

Level bumps into Int, +4 item.... so a 21 INT at level 11.

[SamTheCleric]

[Sorry for the self bump, wanted to put the build up for everyone to see]

Human Wizard 4/Warblade 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 4

BAB: +18
Caster Level: 16
Initiator Level: 16 (I think)
Feats: 1 - Combat Casting, Extend Spell, Scribe Scroll
3 - Power Attack
6 - Practiced Spellcaster
9 - Arcane Strike
12 - Empower Spell
15 - ?
18 - ?

-

Not too shabby... 8th level spells. I suppose I could do Wizard 5/Warblade 1... for 17 BAB, 17 Caster level, 15 Initiator Level...

[Diamondeye]

I think there's a FAQ entry that states that PrC maneuvers get added to the pre-existing Martial Adept class's list if you have one. It's not relevant whether that Martial Adept class would get that power normally. Treat it as if he were a Warblade who took an extra maneuver with Martial Study.

That's true, but not really what I was talking about.

3rd level and above maneuvers/stances, and sometimes 2nd level maneuvers, have a prerequisite which, for every maneuver I've looked at, is one or more maneuvers from the same discipline. So, regardless of your initiator level, if you want to take a maneuver from a discipline you haven't got any other maneuvers from, you need to take a 2nd, or possibly 1st level maneuver to fill the prerequisite.

For the Warblade/JPM that means when you start taking JPM maneuvers you have to start off with a Desert Wind or Devoted Spirit maneuver with no prerequisites and then build into others if you want to use those disciplines. If you want to keep building on a Warblade Disciplne like Iron Heart, you can do that, or if you want to use maneuvers gained with Warblade levels after JPM to add to a JPM-granted discipline then you can do that, but you still have to start a new progression in Desert Wind and/or Devoted Spirit when you first gain the PrC if you want to use those disciplines.

[SamTheCleric]

Would it be better to do crusder instead of warblade in that instance? Just stick to devoted spirit all the way up?

[ColdBrew]

Would it be better to do crusder instead of warblade in that instance? Just stick to devoted spirit all the way up?

Well, Wizard and Warblade have Int synergy. Crusader combos with Cleric and Ruby Knight Vindicator much better. As for maneuver progression, WotC has said that maneuvers can fill their own prereqs. You can take one Devoted Spirit maneuver, then swap it out for another with a prereq of "One DS maneuver". Assuming your DM allows you to swap out maneuvers during a PrC progression.

[SamTheCleric]

I will have to check with him to see if he'll allow swapping...

Thanks for your input.

Now to find some feats... maybe a reserve feat or two.

[Darrin]

For the Warblade/JPM that means when you start taking JPM maneuvers you have to start off with a Desert Wind or Devoted Spirit maneuver with no prerequisites and then build into others if you want to use those disciplines.

A list of maneuvers that have 0 prereqs:

http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archi...x.php/t-766821

Desert Wind actually has some of the best: Burning/Inferno Blade, Wind Stride, Distracting Ember, and Death Mark.

Devoted Spirit, not so much, but any strike that combines damage and healing in the same action (Martial Strike) can be useful, and you can also use stances like Leading the Charge (via Martial Stance if need be, which scales up nicely by your IL) to qualify for prereqs.

If you want to keep building on a Warblade Disciplne like Iron Heart, you can do that, or if you want to use maneuvers gained with Warblade levels after JPM to add to a JPM-granted discipline then you can do that, but you still have to start a new progression in Desert Wind and/or Devoted Spirit when you first gain the PrC if you want to use those disciplines.

Nope. Maneuvers from a Martial Adept PrC use the progression/recovery mechanic of your base Martial Adept class. So if you become a JPM as a Warblade, your JPM maneuvers are treated as Warblade manevuers. If you have multiple base classes, you choose which one you want the PrC to progress when you go into it.

Would it be better to do crusder instead of warblade in that instance? Just stick to devoted spirit all the way up?

Depends... Crusader synergizes better with Sorcerer (Crusader 2 adds Cha bonus to saves), but your spell progression is a little slower. You can bump up your BAB by a bit with Battle Sorcerer, and offset the loss of known spells with a Bloodline feat if you can spare it. Warblade and Wizard synergize better, although with only two levels of Warblade you only add your Int bonus to Reflex saves.

Because the maneuver progression for JPM is much slower than the base Martial Adepts, you have to make a decision on if you want to specialize your JPM levels with Desert Wind or Devoted Spirit maneuvers.

Desert Wind has more boosts/counters which are more Gish-friendly, but fire damage that you can't Energy-Substitute to something else can be sub-optimal when every creature you bump into and their uncle has Fire Resistance. Good stuff at lower ILs, but becomes a real yawner at higher ILs.

Devoted Spirit is more powerful, but has very few boosts/counters, lots of standard action strikes (less useful when your BAB is 11+), and focuses on supporting/buffing other party members. Then again, it also has the Aura of Chaos stance (reroll any damage dice that come up with the maximum value, a strong must-pick at JPM 5), and tell me that wouldn't be Awesomeness-On-A-Sandwich when combined with Arcane Strike + Arcane Wrath. Kinda boring at low ILs but at higher ILs starts to veer quickly into "I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds" kinda stuff: Attack + free Heal for everyone in the party? Immune to HP death? etc.

[Keld Denar]

Crusader does have a superior recovery mechanism, although you lose access to Diamond Mind and Iron Heart maneuvers if you go Crusader. Its honestly more of a personal choice. Its is kind of a pain in the butt to have access to 2 new disciplines of maneuvers, have a high IL, but not have any prereqs in them to take some of the better high level manuevers. Check out the "ToB for dummies" thread over on the CharOp boards for more info on low prereq manuevers in all disciplines at all of the various levels. Its VERY useful for planning maneuver progression, because it breaks all the disciplines down by level and prereqs.

I've been posting in a thread over on the CharOp forums concerning optimizing a JPM specifically concerning the use of the Whirling Blade spell in conjunction with metamagic and boosts. It can be found here:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1003767

There are a couple of good example builds and some general tactics. Take a looksie.

[SamTheCleric]

Thanks guys, I'll check those out when I head home (dreaded firewall of doom)

[Douglas]

I will have to check with him to see if he'll allow swapping...

If you need an argument for why he should, refer back to this post:

Ask your DM if he'll approve a houserule that PrCs get the maneuver-swapping ability of the base classes. If he wants to know why, point out that Crusader and Warblade effectively get a new maneuver known at each and every level, while Swordsage gets three every two levels. Then point out that, with the exception of Master of Nine, every PrC gives at best one maneuver every two levels and most are one per three levels or worse. Then ask him if the class features of those classes are really so incredibly powerful compared to the base classes as to warrant a maneuver progression half or one-third as fast.

Now to find some feats... maybe a reserve feat or two.

Arcane Strike from Complete Warrior is great for gishes.

[Keld Denar]

For reserve feats, the damage ones are pretty much wasted on a gish, since you're more effect just hitting stuff. Therefore, looking at the more utility ones, we get Minor Shapeshift and the minor teleport one.

Minor Shapeshift is AMAZING for a gish. Keep a spell from the polymorph subschool memorized (Polymorph, or if your DM was smart and banned it, Displacer Form or Trollshape). A swift action gets you a couple of different bonuses, most of which are meh, but a couple shine. The best is the temp hp. As a gish, you typically want to hit stuff. That involves getting into melee range (usually). Having free temp hp equal to your CL that you can refresh every round as a swift action makes you a hard nut to crack. If you get really hard up, you can cast the Trollshape or the Displacer form to gain the fast healing or displacement effect.

The minor teleport one isn't quite as useful, since its activation is a standard action. Still, never being required to walk again *bamf* has a coolness to it. It can also save your bacon in combat if you ever get grappled. Plus, who doesn't memorize at least one spell from the teleport subschool to get home at the end of a long day of adventuring.

[Darrin]

The minor teleport one isn't quite as useful, since its activation is a standard action. Still, never being required to walk again *bamf* has a coolness to it. It can also save your bacon in combat if you ever get grappled. Plus, who doesn't memorize at least one spell from the teleport subschool to get home at the end of a long day of adventuring.

Taking Martial Study: Shadow Stride or Shadow Blink might be better. Only works once every other round, but no prereqs and works without devoting a spell-slot.

[SamTheCleric]

Arcane Strike is definately on the list, thank you :)

Hmm, free temp hit points = win.

I'm just afraid I'm "wasting" a feat in Combat Casting in order to get those last 4 levels of Abjurant Champion.

[ColdBrew]

Be wary of spending your swift actions on Minor Shapechange buffs. You might have better options like boosts.

edit: Or Warblade recovery, duh.

[SamTheCleric]

Any recommendations on itemization? I believe the wealth by level for level 11 is around 64000.... and this is what i've come up with (just SRD stuff since I'm away from my books).

+1 Spell Storing Scythe
Ring of Counterspells
Ring of Protection +2
Gloves of Dexterity (Or gauntlets of ogre power) +2
Headband of Intellect +4
Vest of Resistance +2
Haversack
Brooch of Shielding
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone
Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend
-

Which leaves me roughly 8100gp to spend.

[Keld Denar]

Any recommendations on itemization? I believe the wealth by level for level 11 is around 64000.... and this is what i've come up with (just SRD stuff since I'm away from my books).

+1 Spell Storing Scythe
Ring of Counterspells
Ring of Protection +2
Gloves of Dexterity (Or gauntlets of ogre power) +2
Headband of Intellect +4
Vest of Resistance +2
Haversack
Brooch of Shielding
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone
Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend
-

Which leaves me roughly 8100gp to spend.

I'd upgrade your ring of counterspells to a ring of greater counterspells. Its superior in just about every way for only a marginal increase in cost. Other than that, you pretty much got all your milk/bread/eggs covered. Might want to upgrade your gloves to a belt of giant str +4 also. Later, I might suggest a Caster Glove from MIC. Its a Glove of Storing for rods and wands and lets you activate them as if you were holding them, without holding them. You can put your lesser rod of extend in there and never have to worry about drawing it to extend spells you cast. Later in life, get a lesser rod of quicken and put it in there. Having access to quickened Benign Transposition and quickened Whirling Blades is awesome.

[SamTheCleric]

Wow, that caster's glove sounds nice...

I wonder if I can talk my DM to let me use crafting for the items if I take Craft Wondrous... save on some cash...

EDIT: Heh, in the ToB For Dummies all the builds have Crusader as the base instead of warblade :P

[SamTheCleric]

Ok, here's what I finally settled on... if you guys wouldn't mind taking a gander.. I may swap out my cleric for this guy, I'm realling liking how it looks, but I want to make it perfect before this Sunday

Build: Wizard 4/Warblade 2/JPM 5
Feats: Scribe Scroll, Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Power Attack, Arcane Strike

Manuevers: Foehammer, Revitalizing Strike, Divine Surge, Moment of Perfect Mind, Emerald Razor, Mountain Hammer, Battle Leader's Charge

Stances: Thicket of Blades, Blood in the Water

Items

Spoiler

Show

+1 Spell Storing Scythe
+1 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt
Ring of Counterspells
Ring of Protection +2
Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2
Headband of Intellect +4
Vest of Resistance +2
Haversack
Brooch of Shielding
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone
Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend
3000gp Leftover

[Diamondeye]

Nope. Maneuvers from a Martial Adept PrC use the progression/recovery mechanic of your base Martial Adept class. So if you become a JPM as a Warblade, your JPM maneuvers are treated as Warblade manevuers. If you have multiple base classes, you choose which one you want the PrC to progress when you go into it.

I'm struggling to understand why you're saying "nope" when I was agreeing with you.

However, it doesn't matter that your JPM maneuvers are treated as Warblade maneuvers for the purposes of what I'm talking about, since the ability to get higher level maneuvers that have prerequisites depends on the number of maneuvers you've already taken in that discipline.

Warblade doesn't get Devoted Spirit or Desert Wind, so if you are a Warblade/Wizard/JPM, if you want to get a 5th level Devoted Spirit maneuver with a prerequisite of, say 2 Devoted Spirit maneuvers, you won't be able to do that without taking 2 Devoted Spirit maneuvers somehow. Depending on what your DM allows, you could do that fairly quickly by taking a DS maneuver, then switching out a maneuver for a second DS maneuver at the earliest opportunity, but it's still going to require some careful management since, if you're trying to maximize spellcasting levels, you're not going to have that many levels where you gain new maneuvers.

[Keld Denar]

Ok, here's what I finally settled on... if you guys wouldn't mind taking a gander.. I may swap out my cleric for this guy, I'm realling liking how it looks, but I want to make it perfect before this Sunday

Build: Wizard 4/Warblade 2/JPM 5
Feats: Scribe Scroll, Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Power Attack, Arcane Strike

Manuevers: Foehammer, Revitalizing Strike, Divine Surge, Moment of Perfect Mind, Emerald Razor, Mountain Hammer, Battle Leader's Charge

Stances: Thicket of Blades, Blood in the Water

I wouldn't take Improved Trip if I was you. Tripping is something you REALLY have to spec at, you you won't be able to do it well vs the type of things you'll be fighting at your level. Those 2 feats would better be spent on something like Standstill and....anything. Cleave wouldn't be a bad investment since you have a reach weapon and will be doing lots of damage with Arcane Strike and PA for a good chance to drop a foe. I'm not sure if you can cleave on a martial strike, though, but it would be cool if you could.

Also, you might want to look further into Desert Wind. Boosts that increase you damage are a decent alternative to casting swift spell or burning spells on Arcane Power (along with Arcane Strike).

Items
+1 Spell Storing Scythe
+1 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt
Ring of Counterspells
Ring of Protection +2
Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2
Headband of Intellect +4
Vest of Resistance +2
Haversack
Brooch of Shielding
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone
Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend
3000gp Leftover

I don't like Rings of Protection. I don't feel like they provide enough benefit for their cost. They should cost x^2 *1000g instead of x^2 *2000g. Plus, they are deflection bonuses, which you can get from Protection from Evil (you'll get this swift from AC!) or a friendly cleric's Shield of Faith (Mass). Also, Dusty Rose Ioun Stone is even worse priced for its cost. 5k for a +1 is not a good investment. I also don't like Brooch of Shielding, mostly because it takes the neck slot, which is ONLY for Con. You can put the 14k you would have spent on that gear and buy maybe Boots of Speed for free action haste for 10 rounds (plenty for a day) or upgrading your +Str item and getting a +Con item. The extra hp from Con would outway the extra AC, especially as you advance (and upgrade it).

[SamTheCleric]

Hmm, ok. So instead of CE + Improved Trip... How about Combat Reflexes and Hold the Line or Close Quarters Combat? I'm not sure what Stand Still is... where's that from?

Ring of Prot +2 (8000), Brooch of Shielding (1500), Ioun Stone (5000)

That's 14500 total. Take away the gauntlets to make it 18500.

Belt of Giant Str +4 is 16000. Leaves me 2500 to play with, not quite enough for a +2 con item, sadly.

Alternately I could just get a +2 con item, keep the gauntlets and have 10k to spend on something else.

[playswithfire]

Stand still is in the SRD.

When you make an AoO; do no damage and the enemy has to make a reflex save of 10 + damage you would have done or he loses his move actions

[SamTheCleric]

Hmm, that just begs to have Combat Reflexes....

oh, and a Scythe isn't a reach weapon... is it? The table at d20srd.org doesnt list it as one. I picked it cause.. well.. who uses a scythe? :)