Multi-gestalt

[weenie]

I was toying around with an idea recently, and I felt like sharing it.

The current multiclassing system makes multiclassed characters pretty weak. For example, a Bard 5/Fighter 5 is much weaker than a Bard 10 or Fighter 10. Something else that's been bugging me a bit is also the fact, that a high level character has to spend a lot of training to learn the fundamentals of a different class. So here is my solution o the problem:

Every character can have multiple gestalt-ish progressions. So when multiclassing a lvl 5 Bard into Fighter you gain a new Fighter progression instead of just gaining a level of Fighter, and thus become a Bard 5//Fighter 1.

You're probably thinking "but this makes the character even weaker than a Bard 5/Fighter 1!", and here my innovation comes into play. To get your first level of Fighter you must spend 1000XP no mather what level Bard you are. In other words your different progressions count separetely towards XP.

Now a problem with this idea is that Fighter 5//Barbarian 5 is weaker than what you'd get from multiclassing the two classes normally, thus normal multiclassing is still possible and works as normal.

So, what do you think? Could this system work?

[Talya]

You're on to something, but this particular example is cumbersome.


This might also be a neat alternative to horribly broken epic rules...simply start on a new class alongside your level 20...but without new hit dice. Of course, you run into problems not having new feats or skill points, so I'm not entirely sure where to go with that either.

[Tsotha-lanti]

So you'd basically use XP to buy levels?

With a total of 2,000 XP spent, you can be ClassA 2//ClassB 1; with a total of 3,000 XP spent, you can be ClassA 3, or ClassA 2//ClassB 1//ClassC 1 (1,000 XP to get to 2nd level in your main class, 1,000 each to get 1st in the other two)... right?

A Fighter 5//Barbarian 5 would have expended 21,000 XP, while a single-class character having spent the same would be 7th-level?

It'd require extensive math to figure out at which points this thing breaks down, if it does. I suspect higher levels, where relatively small amounts of XP (worth one actual level) could buy you 5-6 levels of class abilities.

[Kurald Galain]

I suspect higher levels, where relatively small amounts of XP (worth one actual level) could buy you 5-6 levels of class abilities.

Or, for that matter, 5-6 points of BAB.

[AmberVael]

It'd require extensive math to figure out at which points this thing breaks down, if it does. I suspect higher levels, where relatively small amounts of XP (worth one actual level) could buy you 5-6 levels of class abilities.

On the other hand, you'd be suffering in terms of BAB, saves, and HP if you did it too much.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Or, for that matter, 5-6 points of BAB.

I was wondering about that, actually.

What's the BAB for a Wizard 20//Fighter 6? That's not a problem you ever get with actual gestalt characters.

If you used fractional BAB and saves you'd just need a bit of math. That one would work out to BAB +13, since it'd be +1/level for 6 levels, then +½/level for 14 levels...


Losing one level (or less than a full level) in your main class to get 3rd-level spells isn't that bad of a trade - in fact, it's better than gaining a single level in any class would be. And if you pick your class well (something that's heavy on abilities early on; barbarian, rogue, scout, etc.) you'll be adding a lot of power or versatility with next to no cost.

[AmberVael]

I assume it would go like this for a wizard 20//fighter 6
You'd basically be gestalt for your first 6 levels, taking the best of each class, then from levels 7-20, you'd be wizard only. It would kind of be like retraining, however, since you took the gestalt later than first level.

[Talya]

Wouldn't a level 20 non-TOB character who buys a gestalt 1st level of a martial adept in this manner have a starting initiator level of 10 or 11?

[Tsotha-lanti]

I assume it would go like this for a wizard 20//fighter 6
You'd basically be gestalt for your first 6 levels, taking the best of each class, then from levels 7-20, you'd be wizard only. It would kind of be like retraining, however, since you took the gestalt later than first level.

No, I mean you go to Wizard 20 (expending the, what, 190,000 XP?), then you blow 15,000 XP to get Fighter 6 so you're a Wizard 20//Fighter 6. Your BAB suddenly jumps up by +3, your Fort save goes up some, and you gain 4 bonus feats, and you either gain 18 hit points (the difference between 1d4 and 1d10 averages, times six). (Don't ask about skill points.)

It's a fair bit of effort recalculating everything retroactively like this, and you'd need a ton of special rules for certain situations.


Not sure how retraining would factor in.

[shadeofblack]

hmm.. how about something like this: let's say you're a rogue5 and sorcerer2... that means you have a total of 21000 xp points. now if you wanna take another level in either one these classes, you need 7000 more experience points... but what if we charge 2000 xp for a new level of sorcerer, or 5000 if you want a new level for a new level of rogue?

[Squash Monster]

I like the idea, personally.

But I have to ask... does it need to be gestalt?

What if Wizard 8 / Fighter 2 works exactly the same as it does now, but the cost of the fighter levels worked the way you're describing?

[weenie]

Wouldn't a level 20 non-TOB character who buys a gestalt 1st level of a martial adept in this manner have a starting initiator level of 10 or 11?

Not really sure, I don't really know much about the Tome of Battle..

hmm.. how about something like this: let's say you're a rogue5 and sorcerer2... that means you have a total of 21000 xp points. now if you wanna take another level in either one these classes, you need 7000 more experience points... but what if we charge 2000 xp for a new level of sorcerer, or 5000 if you want a new level for a new level of rogue?

Ummm, I'm not really sure if I'm getting this correctly. Is the character a Rogue 5//Sorcerer 2 or a Rogue 5/Sorcerer 2?

In the first case, yeah, that's pretty much what I intended. If you ment the other scenario, then everibody would want to be a Figter 1/Barbarian 1/Ranger 1/Paladin 1/Warblade 1/Hexblade 1/Swashbucler 1/ !!!Samurai 1!!!/ etc..

[weenie]

I like the idea, personally.

But I have to ask... does it need to be gestalt?

What if Wizard 8 / Fighter 2 works exactly the same as it does now, but the cost of the fighter levels worked the way you're describing?

It pretty much has to be gestalt.(see post above)

[Chronos]

Even with it being gestalt, though, every cleric and druid, and many wizards and sorcerers (especially if the feat Ascetic Mage is available), will want to pick up a level or two of monk. Paying 1000 XP for a permanent, undispellable bonus of Wis to AC (and +2 to a couple of saves, and a couple of extra HP, and a bunch of other benefits if you take a couple more levels) is a great bargain.

[The_Snark]

Is it? For clerics, at least, that means giving up a +8 armor bonus to AC in the form of full plate. You'll need to be pretty high-level before the monk level becomes worth it. (For druids, it's more feasible. Especially with Wild Shape.)

[Stycotl]

i have a system worked out for a few of the pc's in one of my campiagns. i created an incantation (supposed to be ancient and mysterious) that bestows upon the subjects the ability to become gestalt. from then on, they can level up as a gestalt character if they want.

they can choose to do so at some levels, and not to at others. but, in order to gain a level of gestalt, they have to pay double the xp for their advance in hit dice, and both the normal level (the hit dice), and the destalt level have to advance together.

so, the 13th level sorcerer decides that he wants to gestalt into swordsage for 14th level. spends x2 xp for 14th level (steep price, but worth it to the characters), and gains sorcerer 14 and swordsage 1 levels. then, 15th level, sorcerer decides not to gestalt for whatever reason, so he advances as a single class, and can choose either sorcerer 15, or swordsage 2, or whatever the heck else he would normally be able to multiclass into.

has worked out so far, and adding a gestalt into a normally non-gestalt game world in this fashion has made it more magical and interesting. plus, the campaigns that took place just to find and then to perfect the rituals were kind of cool too.

aaron out.

[Yakk]

A somewhat less "burn XP instead of levels" method...

If you are 10/10 fighter/bard, you are actually
10 fighter//5 bard
10 bard//5 fighter

Which works out to:
10 fighter//bard
5 fighter
5 bard

Your total levels in a class, including the bonus Gestalt levels, is the lower of:
average of your class level and character level rounded down, or twice your class level

These levels are forced to be spent after the fact, and you can only gestalt 2 classes at once. When you gestalt, you have a primary and secondary class: only the primary choice boosts your "virtual" levels.

An example of a slightly lopsided bard/fighter progression under this rule:

Fighter (1/0 @L1)
Bard (1/1 @L2)
Bard//Fighter (1+1/2 @L3)
Fighter//Bard (2+1/2+1 @L4)
Fighter (3+1/2+1 @L5
Fighter//Bard (4+1/2+2 @L6)
Bard (4+1/3+2 @L7)
Bard//Fighter (4+2/4+2 @L8)
Fighter (5+2/4+2 @L9)
Fighter//Bard (6+2/4+3 @L10)
Bard (6+2/5+3 @L11)
Bard//Fighter (6+3/6+3 @L12)
Fighter (7+3/6+3 @L13)
Fighter//Bard (8+3/6+4 @L14)
Bard (8+3/7+4 @L15)
Bard//Fighter (8+4/8+4 @L16)
Fighter (9+4/8+4 @L17)
Fighter//Bard (10+4/8+5 @L18)
Fighter (11+4/8+5 @L19)
Fighter//Bard (12+4/8+6 @L20)

10 Fighter//Bard (or vice versa)
6 pure Fighter
4 pure Bard

[Chronos]

Is it? For clerics, at least, that means giving up a +8 armor bonus to AC in the form of full plate.

...and replace it with a +4 armor bonus in the form of a Mage Armor spell cast by the party wizard. It's a first level spell that lasts for hours; he can afford it. Or Bracers of Armor, or Magic Vestment cast on your shirt. Plus you can take full advantage of whatever dex bonus you have, and of a Monk's Belt.

And of course, wizards and sorcerers don't usually wear any physical armor. Granted, they won't have as much wisdom as the divine casters, but even a 12 Wis is enough to make it worthwhile. Which basically means that the four full casting classes would benefit the most from this sort of dipping, and adding anything to the game which most benefits the full casters is probably a bad idea.

[Zincorium]

Honestly, it looks like a good system overall, although a cumulative 1.5 multiplier for each parallel progression might be in order.

But here's the comparison I'd make, both of which take similar amounts of xp:

Level 20 wizard

Level 19 wizard//level 6 something else

The missing 20th level of wizard means the loss of:
Bonus feat
8th level spell slot
9th level spell slot
hit die
point of BAB
level worth of skills


Now, can anyone give a class which, in the first 6 levels, gives the equivalent of those including the two high-level spell slots? None come to mind. A level 6 fighter can't stop time once a day and then PaO into a colossal dragon.

More than that, if you keep giving xp, the first example gives epic spellcasting first. And that is a win button.

On the other hand, you can be a 14 wizard//14 fighter. But that's not particularly astounding when compared to a level 20 of any stripe.

[Toliudar]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this like a slightly more flexible version of the dual-class progression of 2nd edition.

Yoy, the book-keeping nightmares.

[Duke of URL]

I like the idea, personally.

But I have to ask... does it need to be gestalt?

What if Wizard 8 / Fighter 2 works exactly the same as it does now, but the cost of the fighter levels worked the way you're describing?

Then you're allowing an increase of character level much, much faster than is intended -- it would actually reward multiclassing way, way too much.

To wit: using this method to go ClassA 10 / ClassB 10 would take roughly the same amount of XP as going ClassA 14. The former character is CL 20 on the verge of going epic, whereas the latter is only CL 14.

Back to the original concept... I find it quite interesting. It would need to be fleshed out slightly, and then playtested a bit. It may be a nice way to take some sting out of high LA and/or racial HD races.

Suggestions/clarifications:

• The total cost for buying N gestalt levels would be the XP normally needed to reach character level N+1
• There should be a limit of the number of "gestaltings", probably one, to avoid ClassA // ClassB // ClassC // ... situations -- multiclassing within the gestalt is OK, but using the same cost structure (e.g., ClassA 10 // ClassB 3 / ClassC 2 should cost the same as ClassA 10 // ClassB 5)
• BAB, saves, and skill points should be re-calculated as needed, with the "gestalt" levels overlapping the lowest class levels
• Class skills gained (only) from a "gestalt" class have a maximum rank of the levels of the gestalt class + 3, or (character level + 3) / 2, whichever is greater

Edit: You may also want to take this over to the homebrew forum if you really want to flesh it out and get solid feedback.

Basic Analysis: As I said up-front, interesting. You take a hit to advancement to gain additional abilities, so in that respect it's like picking up a template, but with a one-time cost rather than an actual LA. The cost starts to become prohibitive as you pick up more "gestalt" levels, so this would best be used to pick up only a small number of levels to provide special abilities, etc., that would otherwise be unavailable. Cheese awaits, of course (Lion Totem Barbarian -- Pounce ability for 1k XP?), but considering the purpose here is to make characters more powerful, I don;t see it as a problem.