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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    The Heretic


    A heretic considers her next move.

    Heretics are scoundrels who live by their wits, take what they want, and grab what they can. These thieves steal divine power from the gods themselves, and usurp faith from worshippers to fuel them. Canny and clever, these knaves push the boundaries of the mortal and the divine beyond what most believe possible.

    Adventures: Heretics can adventure for any number of reasons. Many are simply free-spirited, while others are actively pursuing the interests of a deity. Even without their divine influence, heretics are competent burglars and sneaks, and can often find work on that basis alone.

    Alignment: Most heretics tend towards a chaotic alignment, as they base their abilities around usurping faith from others. However, lawful individuals exist who believe that they are pursuing a higher calling in exorcising false faith from the impious.

    Religion: Although many heretics worship no specific deity (based simply on the nature of their abilities), some follow a god themselves. Gods of trickery and theft are the most likely to have a heretic among their worshippers. Such gods enjoy having followers who steal the divine power of other gods to further their own ends.

    Background: A heretic can come from many backgrounds, but usually it has a touch of the divine. An orphan who grew up in a monastery, the child of a priestess, a sacrifice-gone-awry: these are all possible candidates of the path of the heretic.

    Races: Halflings are the most common of the common races to enter this class, appreciating as they do the fine art of theft. Otherwise, humans and particularly impudent elves are also normal.

    Other Classes: Most other classes, especially rogues, get along well with heretics. The exception, of course, is clerics and other fervent worshippers, who often see heretics as exactly what they are: thieving scoundrels that make a mockery of proper worship.

    Role: Heretics can fill the niche normally reserved for a skillful character or a divine caster. They are not as strong in combat as a rogue with sneak attack, and they don’t get as powerful magic as a cleric. Yet by combining the two aspects of their nature, they are masters of improvisation and unpredictability who always seem to have the solution to the problem at hand.

    Game Rule Information

    Abilities: Heretics need a high Charisma to use their spellcasting and to increase the potency of their pseudo-divine abilities. Dexterity is often important for agile heretics who take the Weapon Finesse feat. Finally, a high Intelligence can make a heretic into a truly skillful character.

    Alignment: Any.

    Hit Die: d6.

    Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int) x 4.
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int.

    Table: The Heretic
    {table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th

    1st|+0|+0|+2|+2|Drain divinity (1), divine vessel, trapfinding|3|—|—|—|—|—|—

    2nd|+1|+0|+3|+3|Tricky faith|4|—|—|—|—|—|—

    3rd|+2|+1|+3|+3|Drain divinity (2), evasion|5|3|—|—|—|—|—

    4th|+3|+1|+4|+4|Faith healing|6|4|—|—|—|—|—

    5th|+3|+1|+4|+4|Drain divinity (3), uncanny dodge|6|5|—|—|—|—|—

    6th|+4|+2|+5|+5|Steal additional domain|6|5|3|—|—|—|—

    7th|+5|+2|+5|+5|Drain divinity (4)|6|6|4|—|—|—|—

    8th|+6/+1|+2|+6|+6|Divine channeling|6|6|5|—|—|—|—

    9th|+6/+1|+3|+6|+6|Drain divinity (5)|6|6|5|3|—|—|—

    10th|+7/+2|+3|+7|+7|Life’s mockery|6|6|6|4|—|—|—

    11th|+8/+3|+3|+7|+7|Drain divinity (6)|6|6|6|5|—|—|—

    12th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+8|Steal additional domain|6|6|6|5|3|—|—

    13th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+8|Drain divinity (7)|6|6|6|6|4|—|—

    14th|+10/+5|+4|+9|+9|Mettle of mind|6|6|6|6|5|—|—

    15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+9|+9|Drain divinity (8)|6|6|6|6|5|3|—

    16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+10|Improvisation|6|6|6|6|6|4|—

    17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+10|Drain divinity (9)|6|6|6|6|6|5|—

    18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+11|Steal additional domain|6|6|6|6|6|6|3

    19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+11|Drain divinity (10)|6|6|6|6|6|6|4

    20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+12|Uncanny theology|6|6|6|6|6|6|6

    [/table]

    Class Skills: The heretic’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).

    Class Features

    All of the following are class features of the heretic class.

    Weapon and Armour Proficiency: A heretic is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. Heretics are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

    Spellcasting: A heretic casts divine spells, which are drawn from his spell list. Unlike a cleric, his alignment doesn’t restrict him from casting spells with a moral or ethical descriptor opposed to his own alignment.

    A heretic casts his spells spontaneously, just like a sorcerer. At any time, he may cast a spell he knows so long as he has a spell slot of the appropriate level available to him. Unlike a sorcerer, however, a heretic must also expend divinity along with his spell slots. Whenever he casts a spell, a heretic must also expend a number of points of divinity equal to the spell level. If the heretic does not have enough points of divinity, he may not cast the spell.

    Like other spellcasters, a heretic can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Heretic. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.

    A heretic can only cast a spell if his Charisma score is equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The saving throw against a spell cast by a heretic has a DC equal to 10 + the spell level + the heretic's Charisma modifier.

    Heretics meditate or pray for their spells. Each heretic must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spell slots. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a heretic can prepare spells.

    A heretic may change his spell list whenever he regains his spell slots for the day. He may select any three domains to steal from on that day, and the spells in those domains become his spell list. As a heretic never becomes able to cast 8th or 9th level spells, he does not add the 8th or 9th level spells from domains he steals onto his spell list. A heretic does not gain the granted power of a domain he steals.

    For all intents and purposes of class features, a heretic only knows or is able to cast a spell while he has a domain which contains that spell stolen for any particular day. Thus, he may qualify for feats, prestige classes, or other such venues based on a particular spell known, but he temporarily loses access to the use of said feat or prestige class if he later fails to meet the requirements for it by failing to select a domain with the requisite spell. For more information on losing access to prestige classes, see page 16 of Complete Warrior.

    If a heretic adds a spell to his heretic class spell list by dint of a feat or a class feature, that spell becomes always available to spontaneously cast, regardless of domain selection. A heretic must still pay divinity as normal to cast such a spell.

    Divine Vessel (Su): A heretic has no innate divine power of his own, but he can steal faith from others to power his stolen abilities. A heretic can have a pool of divinity at any one time up to twice his class level. He does not lose this divinity once he acquires it, except through use of his class features or other such applications.

    Drain Divinity (Su): Whenever a heretic succeeds on a melee attack against a target who is either flanked or denied their Dexterity bonus to AC against the attack, the target is drained of divinity. The heretic gains a number of points of divinity based on his level of achievement, as shown on Table: The Heretic.

    A heretic may not deal nonlethal damage with this ability; he only gains points of divinity if he deals lethal damage with his strike. Likewise, if all of his damage is prevented with damage reduction, he doesn’t gain any divinity from it. If the target is capable of casting divine spells, a heretic gains 1 additional point of divinity with this ability.

    In addition, if the target is able to cast divine spells, they lose a number of spell levels from their daily allotment of spells left to cast equal to the number of points of divinity the heretic drains from them. For example, a cleric drained of 4 points of divinity by a 7th level heretic loses 4 spell levels from his prepared spells remaining to cast that day. The target may choose which spell levels are lost. For instance, this cleric may choose to lose from memory a 1st and 3rd level spell, 4 1st level spells, 2 2nd level spells, or so on. If the target cannot evenly divide his spell levels remaining into the divinity stolen from him, he pays as closely as he can, and there is no further effect. The heretic still gains the normal number of points of divinity in such a case.

    If the target prepares their spells spontaneously, they instead lose spell slots remaining to them. However, they may choose to ‘subtract’ spell levels from spell slots remaining to them instead of losing spell slots outright. For instance, a favored soul drained of 4 points of divinity may choose to convert a 6th level spell slot into a 2nd level spell slot.

    If a heretic cannot gain the full number of points of divinity he drains, he only drains the number he needs to fill his divine vessel (see above). Thus, a divine spellcaster loses less spell levels from such an attack.

    This ability has no effect on creatures that do not worship a god or ideal.

    Trapfinding (Ex): A heretic can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20.

    Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

    Heretics can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

    A heretic who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with his party) without disarming it.

    Tricky Faith (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a heretic can spend 1 point of divinity as a swift action to gain his Charisma modifier as an insight bonus to his AC and saving throws for 1 round. This ability only functions if the heretic is wearing light or no armour.

    Evasion (Ex): At 3rd level and higher, a heretic can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the heretic is wearing light armour or no armour. A helpless heretic does not gain the benefit of evasion.

    Faith Healing (Su): Beginning at 4th level, a heretic can spend divinity as a standard action to channel positive or negative energy into himself or someone he is touching.

    If the heretic channels positive energy, the target heals hp equal to five times the amount of divinity expended. If undead, the target instead takes damage equal to this amount.

    If the heretic channels negative energy, the target takes damage equal to five times the amount of divinity expended. If undead, the target instead heals hp equal to this amount.

    If the ability will harm the target, the heretic must succeed on a touch attack to deliver the effect, and the target may attempt a Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 the heretic’s class level + the heretic’s Charisma modifier). If successful, they only take half damage from this effect.

    A heretic may only channel a certain amount of positive or negative energy each day, equal to twice his class level times his Charisma modifier. Both negative and positive energy expenditure counts towards this limit equally.

    Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a heretic can react to danger before his senses would normally allow her to do so. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

    If a heretic already has uncanny dodge from a different class he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

    Steal Additional Domain (Su): Beginning at 6th level, a heretic may select a fourth domain to spontaneously cast his spells from whenever he regains his spell slots. At 12th level, and again at 18th level, the heretic gains another additional domain.

    Divine Channeling (Su): Beginning at 8th level, whenever a heretic successfully drains divinity from a target, he may forgo gaining points of divinity to immediately cast a touch spell. The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action or shorter, and requires a spell slot and additional points of divinity as normal. Casting a spell in this way is part of the attack, and thus does not require an action.

    Life’s Mockery (Su): Beginning at 10th level, a heretic can spend 2 points of divinity as a standard action to turn or rebuke undead. The heretic uses his heretic level as his effective cleric level to use this ability. A heretic can only use this ability once per day per point of Charisma modifier.

    Note: Life’s Mockery allows a heretic to qualify for prestige classes and feats as if he had the turn or rebuke undead class feature of the cleric. If any feat or effect requires the expenditure of turn or rebuke attempts, a heretic may expend uses of life's mockery instead. Likewise, an item or similar effect which grants additional uses of turn or rebuke undead instead gives a heretic additional daily uses of life's mockery.

    Mettle of Mind (Su): At 14th level and higher, a heretic can survive even mental assaults with great force of will. If he makes a successful Will saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage or has a partial effect on a successful save, he instead takes no damage or effect. A helpless heretic does not gain the benefit of mettle of mind.

    Improvisation: Beginning at 16th level, a heretic can grab the perfect spell for the situation. By expending a spell slot one level higher than the actual spell, he may cast any spell on the cleric spell list. Casting a spell in this way costs 3 more points of divinity than it would normally cost to cast the spell (based on the adjusted spell level). A heretic can use this ability once per day per point of Charisma modifier.

    Uncanny Theology (Su): Beginning at 20th level, a heretic can spend 5 points of divinity as a swift action to gain access to the granted power of one of his stolen domains for 1 minute per class level. He may only use this ability on each of his stolen domains once per day.

    Note: If a domain granted power creates a new class skill for the heretic, he may make skill checks using that skill as if he had maximum ranks in the skill for the duration of the effect based on his level. He may not use this ability to qualify for prestige classes or feats that require skill ranks.

    On the Heretic and Prestige Classes: If a heretic enters a prestige class that advances divine spellcasting, he also stacks these additional caster levels with his divine vessel class feature to determine how much divinity he can hold.

    General Feats

    Spoiler
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    Daring Godthief
    You’re a swashbuckling, faith-robbing, good-for-nothing scoundrel.
    Prerequisites: Drain divinity (2), grace +1
    Benefit: Your heretic and swashbuckler levels stack to determine the amount of divinity you can hold, as well as the divinity you steal with a successful strike. In addition, these levels also stack to determine the bonus you receive from your Grace class feature and the AC bonus you receive from the dodge class feature.

    Devoted Godthief
    You steal the faith of the unrighteous to smite the wicked.
    Prerequisites: Drain divinity (2), smite evil
    Benefit: If you have levels in paladin and heretic, those levels stack for determining the amount of divinity you can hold, the strength of your smite attacks, and the divinity you steal with a successful strike. In addition, you may spend 5 points of divinity to gain an additional use of smite evil.

    Luck of the Gods [Luck]
    Your stolen faith empowers your uncanny fortune.
    Prerequisites: Any two luck feats, drain divinity
    Benefit: You may spend 5 point of divinity as a swift action to gain a luck reroll. You may use this ability once per day per point of Charisma modifier.
    You gain one luck reroll.


    Epic Feats

    Spoiler
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    Improved Drain Divinity [Epic]
    Your attacks steal even more fath from their targets.
    Prerequisites: Drain divinity (10)
    Benefit: The amount of divinity drained by your attacks increases by 1.
    Special: You may select this feat additional times. It’s effects stack.

    Steal Additional Domain [Epic]
    You can trick even more power out of the gods.
    Prerequisites: Drain divinity (10)
    Benefit: Every day, you may select one additional domain to access for your heretic spells.
    Special: You may select this feat additional times. Each time, you may select another additional domain each day.


    The Epic Heretic

    Spoiler
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    Hit Die: d6.

    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier.

    Divine Vessel: The amount of divinity you can hold is equal to twice your class level, as normal.

    Drain Divinity (Su): The epic heretic’s drain divinity ability increases by 1 point every 4 levels above 20th.

    Spellcasting: The epic heretic’s number of spells per day does not increase after 20th level, nor can he steal additional domains (unless he takes the Steal Additional Domain epic feat).

    Bonus Feats: The epic heretic gains a bonus feat (selected from the list of epic heretic bonus feats every three levels after 20th.

    Epic Heretic Bonus Feat List: Additional Magic Item Space, Blinding Speed, Dexterous Fortitude, Dexterous Will, Energy Resistance, Epic Dodge, Epic Endurance, Epic Leadership, Epic Prowess, Epic Reflexes, Epic Reputation, Epic Skill Focus, Epic Speed, Epic Spell Penetration, Epic Trapfinding, Exceptional Deflection, Extended Life Span, Great Charisma, Great Dexterity, Improved Combat Casting, Improved Combat Reflexes, Improved Drain Divinity, Improved Metamagic, Improved Spell Capacity, Infinite Deflection, Steal Additional Domain, Negative Energy Burst, Penetrate Damage Reduction, Planar Turning, Polyglot, Positive Energy Aura, Reflect Arrows, Self-Concealment, Spectral Strike, Superior Initiative, Undead Mastery.

    Table: The Epic Heretic
    {table=head]Heretic Level|Special
    21st|–
    22nd|–
    23rd|Bonus feat
    24th|Drain divinity (11)
    25th|–
    26th|Bonus feat
    27th|–
    28th|Drain divinity (12)
    29th|Bonus feat
    30th|–[/table]
    Last edited by Kellus; 2008-03-20 at 09:59 PM. Reason: More Stuff!

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kaelaroth's Avatar

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    Default Re: Name my homebrew!

    Hmmmm:
    - Siphoner
    - Wych-Thief
    - Priest of Heresy
    - A Hand of Sleight
    - Luck's Lads
    - Heavenly Fingers

    They aren't great, but I'm tired.
    Words, my weapons...
    Je veux aller sous votre peau.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kneenibble View Post
    You rascally psychopath, you.
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    On the phone, people talk back. And over. And aren't obliged to listen.
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    Kael, awesome.
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    I has been owned.
    Yup, Kael beat the Book Geek at her own game.
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    Don't tick off Kaelawrath. The dear fellow is above reproach.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll's Avatar

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    Default Re: Name my homebrew!

    I second Wych-Thief.
    Steampunk GwynSkull by DR. BATH

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyntonian View Post
    What. Is. This. Madness.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    dman11235's Avatar

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    Default Re: You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    You know, the Ur-Priest (CDiv) siphons a deity's power.

    That said: what's with the level 7 spells? Classes do 4, 6, or 9 levels of spell casting, I have never seen 7 before. Will be back later.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonThelonious
    ...But you have never given any bad advice as far as I have seen. Not to mention, unlike some other people I see around here, you actually know what your talking about.

    Trust dman11235.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Kellus's Avatar

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    Default Re: You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    Yes, but this class is nothing like the Ur-Priest. For one, it's not ridiculously abusable. For two, it fills a completely different role, that a divine rogue, a role which cannot be reliably used as the system stands.

    As for the spells, what's wrong with seven levels of them? Just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. It gives the heretic a good selection of spells from the domains he picks, but he trades the really high-level ones in exchange for rogue-like versatility and general skill-monkery.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    1) I didn't say that this was like the Ur-Priest. I said that they got power through the same means.

    2) I didn't say you shouldn't, I said it was weird. And it would be suggested that you didn't. Less of a way to compare it to other classes. I would suggest a 6 level progression, though moving some spell level around (some 7th, or even weak 8th level spells at 6, some 6 at 5, some 5 at 4). Also, you left off 0th level spells.

    I really like the divinity mechanic. Nice job. There are some kinks to work out, but I can't go over them right now, as I have work tomorrow (gotta sleep!), but tomorrow, I'll be back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonThelonious
    ...But you have never given any bad advice as far as I have seen. Not to mention, unlike some other people I see around here, you actually know what your talking about.

    Trust dman11235.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Kellus's Avatar

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    Default Re: You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    Admittedly, it is more difficult to compare to other classes, but I don't think that's a big issue. As for adjusting spell levels, that would be fine if he had a fixed spell list. But since he draws his entire class spell list from domains, I'd have to literally go through every domain written. And there's a lot of domains.

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    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    Interesting...
    What is the point of "Improvisation" if they are spontaneous casters anyway?
    "Drain Divinity" should be limited to creatures with INT>2 for balance reasons (I tie down a bunch of rats and chop their heads off one by one... divinity recharged!) and because how are you supposed to drain the energy of faith from something that has no faith to give?
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  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Kellus's Avatar

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    Default Re: You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    Improvisation allows a heretic to grab a spell, any spell, off the cleric spell list. That is, pick the exact spell needed for the situation at hand. Normally, their class spell list is composed of 2-5 domains that they pick at the beginning of the day. Admittedly, they can change the domains they use every day, but not every cleric spell is in a domain, and there'll be situations where he simply won't have the right spell for the job. Hence Improvisation.

    As for your second point:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellus
    This ability has no effect on creatures that do not worship a god or ideal.
    I'd generally rule that anything with Int below 3 can't worship, so a heretic couldn't drain any divinity from them. Anything else is fair game.

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    Default Re: You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    I'm still a little bit away from being able to give you a complete rundown, but for now I'd like to point out that clerics don't actually get their spells from deities. Only the domain spells. This quote puts it quite well:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lokathor on cleric spell casting
    They all shoot flaming death because they're so utterly convinced that they can shoot flaming death, the universe just gives up and agrees.
    If they did get their spells from deities, why don't the deities get all cleric spells at will, and not just the domains?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonThelonious
    ...But you have never given any bad advice as far as I have seen. Not to mention, unlike some other people I see around here, you actually know what your talking about.

    Trust dman11235.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    Oh, I agree. Clerics certainly get their powers simply from the act of belief, and not necessarily from any higher power. That's the only rational explanation for clerics that gain spells from worshipping a cause or some other nonsense. What heretics actually steal is the faith of the target.

    But they also steal access to domains from gods themselves. As you said, that's the only part of divine spellcasting that irrefutably comes from deities. So heretics trick gods into letting them use their domains, and then steal faith from actual believers to power their stolen spell slots.

    Also, that's a great quote.

  12. - Top - End - #12
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    Default Re: You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    Might be a rather obvious thought, but can a heretic use Life's Mockery to power Divine Feats, not just qualify for them?

    Also a thought, slightly more in depth... I like the 1/day per Cha point limit to it, but as an added benefit, could it maybe only cost them one point of divinity to use a Divine Feat? They seem made for each other, after all...
    Last edited by Thunderbuckets; 2008-03-18 at 10:18 PM.
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    Default Re: You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    this is a good class. in fact, i think i'd rather play this than a full caster. i've always wanted to play a rouge/caster type, but i could never find the exact right one. but you... you've given all of us such a fantastic gift... i think... i think i'm gonna cry

    anyway! this is awsome, it really is. what, may i ask, is the epic level progression going to look like?

    EDIT: also, what effect does Drain Divinity have on creatures that dont worship a god? such as those who are atheists, or represent an alignment rather than a god.
    Last edited by Primal Fury; 2008-03-19 at 07:24 PM.
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    Default Re: You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    Yes, Life's Mockery allows a heretic to qualify for and use divine feats exactly like normal turn or rebuke attempts, except he needs to pay divinity to use them.

    I'm glad you like it! The epic progression is up, as well as some feats for an aspiring heretic.

    As for the question of worship...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellus
    This ability has no effect on creatures that do not worship a god or ideal.
    An atheist would not grant divinity to a heretic. Somebody who worships a cause, ideal, alignment, deity, or whatever else would.

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    Default Re: You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    ah, alright, thanks for that.
    now what about prestige classes that reqiure specific types of spells? oh! and what about PrC's that DO offer new spells and higher level spells? like the Moonspeaker for example, this class could qualify for that PrC. those divine casters who cannot cast planar ally spells or gate get those spells at a later level, would this class get them? or would they be prohibited?
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    Default Re: You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    You know, maybe you should reduce the number of class features. Spellcasting already is so powerful almost no class with it has other features, and having such a good spellcasting plus no dead levels plus cleric BAB is a bit too much.

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    Default Re: You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    It seems basically like a Divine Spellthief, I rather like it.
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    Default Re: You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    All righty then, time for me to get in here.

    Lower skill points to 6+int per level. That's still skill money amount, but less stepping on the feet of the rogue/scout. Also that skill list isn't big enough to support 8+int.

    The spell list is an ingenious way to determine spell list, but unfortunately is too limited. You can't do much of anything with that. Sure there are some nice spells in domains, but at level 1 knowing only 2 spells? What? And level 3 knowing 4? At 6 you know 9, and then it starts being better, but the list is set for each domain, and if you want, say divine power you have to choose the War domain, restricting it so you can't cast that one other spell you need, etc. Maybe grant an additional domain. That might do it. 3 domains at 1, and 6 at 20. That should give you enough versatility all throughout your levels. Also, require only one point of divinity to be spent, otherwise the spells rapidly become useless. Think about it, you need to spend half of your divinity to cast a spell at level 1, and at 20 nearly half of your divinity. This is somewhat mitigated by the level 8 ability, but that ability is overpowered. More on it later.

    Divine Vessel is too small. Have it be 3xclass level. That way you can actually do something with it. If you want it to work with turn undead, you have to say it does, but I'd create a new ability that grants them turning by spending divinity. And you'd have to state how this works with domain feats. And you need to say that anyway, so how exactly does this class work with domain feats? See CChamp for more details.

    Drain Divinity: wow. A save and they must be FF? Lower the requirements, geeze! At least add in that flanking works. But that save? At higher levels, saves can become meaningless. Even though you can take Ability Focus. That makes it 12+1/2 level+cha. At 20 that can be as high as, oh, 30? 32 at best? Chances are you aren't focusing on cha since your spells leave something to desire, and you're combat style dictates melee. And my level 10 cleric can make that save on a 5. My level 10 paladin auto makes it. My level 10 divine caster makes it on a ...you get the idea. Maybe give it half divinity on a successful save (round up)? Even then, mettle screws you over, since you need to get divinity on basically every strike to do what you need to do. This needs more work, but I'm not sure what. Cookie for the mechanic though (if you knew how often I gave out cookies, you'd really appreciate this cookie. It's like a double chocolate chocolate chunk of +5 winsome), nice work, it's new, it's fresh, and I like it. Problem is that it doesn't work well.

    Trapfinding: Yippee!

    Tricky Faith: Seems fine. Especially since your divinity is so limited, and it costs a swift action. After level 8, you'll have to choose: high AC and saves, or free quicken (not that it's much of a contest with certain spells).

    Evasion: Yippee! Again! But why on Earth is it at 3rd level? Every other class that gets it (base class) gets it at level 2, 5, or 9.

    Faith Healing: Oh dear useless. You can spend all of your precious divinity at level 20 for 60 hp. Where as 6 points gets you 150 (heal). And one point gets you fast healing 1 for a quite a few rounds (lesser vigor). Fix it. Not sure how.

    Uncanny Dodge: Yippee! Though why level 5? Most classes get it at 4 or 2.

    Steal Additional Domain: Yippee!

    Divine Channeling: No. Just no. A free quicken? Not restricted to 1/day (Sudden Quicken)? With some spells it's just bad. This needs a major tone down.

    Life's Mockery: Ignore what I said about turning earlier, this does it. However, you still need to say how it reacts with domain feats. Other than that: good work.

    Mettle of Mind: Nice.

    Improvisation: Nice, but there is a problem: you need to spend 14 points of divinity to use this on a 5th level spell. And you can't use it on any 6th or higher spells. At 20 that's well more than half of your divinity. By expanding the pool like I suggested (maybe have it be 2xclass level+cha?), you eliminate this problem.

    Uncanny Theology: Nice capstone.

    Feats: Fine. But the last two are off. A +4 bonus to the save AND the heretic is dazed for a round? Geeze! They're going to make the save anyway!

    Epic feats: fine.

    Epic Progression: problem: have Drain Divinity taper off. Spell slots don't increase past level 20, and it would not be good for in one attack a cleric to lose all his spells. This is a slight exaggeration.

    That's what I got. Look over it, respond, and we can get it more organized.
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    Default Re: You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    Okay, excellent. Some feedback!

    Quote Originally Posted by dman11235 View Post
    Lower skill points to 6+int per level. That's still skill money amount, but less stepping on the feet of the rogue/scout. Also that skill list isn't big enough to support 8+int.
    6 + Int should do nicely.

    The spell list is an ingenious way to determine spell list, but unfortunately is too limited. You can't do much of anything with that. Sure there are some nice spells in domains, but at level 1 knowing only 2 spells? What? And level 3 knowing 4? At 6 you know 9, and then it starts being better, but the list is set for each domain, and if you want, say divine power you have to choose the War domain, restricting it so you can't cast that one other spell you need, etc. Maybe grant an additional domain. That might do it. 3 domains at 1, and 6 at 20. That should give you enough versatility all throughout your levels. Also, require only one point of divinity to be spent, otherwise the spells rapidly become useless. Think about it, you need to spend half of your divinity to cast a spell at level 1, and at 20 nearly half of your divinity. This is somewhat mitigated by the level 8 ability, but that ability is overpowered. More on it later.
    The whole point of the spell list is that it's quite restrictive. The advantage, of course, is that he can change it every day. But you may be right. I'll give him an extra domain at 1st level and see how I feel about it.

    As for divinity per spell, I don't think it's too bad. I'll drop the requirements on drain divinity (see below), but I'm still going to make higher-level spells require more divinity than lower-level spells. You also might want to check your math. At level 20 you have a pool of 40 divinity, and the most you'll spend casting a spell normally is 7. Not exactly 'nearly half'.

    Divine Vessel is too small. Have it be 3xclass level. That way you can actually do something with it. If you want it to work with turn undead, you have to say it does, but I'd create a new ability that grants them turning by spending divinity. And you'd have to state how this works with domain feats. And you need to say that anyway, so how exactly does this class work with domain feats? See CChamp for more details.
    I could go with 3 times class level. That seems reasonable. As for domain feats, I hadn't even thought about it. I'll crack open my CCh and figure something out.

    Drain Divinity: wow. A save and they must be FF? Lower the requirements, geeze! At least add in that flanking works. But that save? At higher levels, saves can become meaningless. Even though you can take Ability Focus. That makes it 12+1/2 level+cha. At 20 that can be as high as, oh, 30? 32 at best? Chances are you aren't focusing on cha since your spells leave something to desire, and you're combat style dictates melee. And my level 10 cleric can make that save on a 5. My level 10 paladin auto makes it. My level 10 divine caster makes it on a ...you get the idea. Maybe give it half divinity on a successful save (round up)? Even then, mettle screws you over, since you need to get divinity on basically every strike to do what you need to do. This needs more work, but I'm not sure what. Cookie for the mechanic though (if you knew how often I gave out cookies, you'd really appreciate this cookie. It's like a double chocolate chocolate chunk of +5 winsome), nice work, it's new, it's fresh, and I like it. Problem is that it doesn't work well.
    Excellent idea on flanking; I'll stick it in. As for the DC of the save, I made it to be in line with normal DCs of supernatural abilities, but I'm toying with the idea of removing it entirely. In fact, I think that's nor a bad idea. After all, the spellthief doesn't allow a save to steal arcane spells, so it's probably not game-breaking to not allow a save to destroy divine spell levels. Admittedly, I'd probably feel worse about this if it was going to seriously hurt any class other than a full divine caster.

    Evasion: Yippee! Again! But why on Earth is it at 3rd level? Every other class that gets it (base class) gets it at level 2, 5, or 9.
    Evasion and uncanny dodge got pushed back a level from when the rogue gets them on purpose; it's to represent that this class sacrifices some of its progression of rogue-like abilities in exchange for draining faith. The fact that they fill otherwise semi-dead levels at 3 and 5 also makes me happy.

    Faith Healing: Oh dear useless. You can spend all of your precious divinity at level 20 for 60 hp. Where as 6 points gets you 150 (heal). And one point gets you fast healing 1 for a quite a few rounds (lesser vigor). Fix it. Not sure how.
    Not as bad as you seem to think. For one thing, it doesn't require a spell slot, meaning you can do it all day long if you have enough divinity. Also, see above about increasing divine vessel as per your suggestion. Again, though, your math seems slightly off. You have a pool of 40 divinity (right now) at level 20, netting you 120 hp healing with this ability. But your point is valid. I think I'm going to keep it as is for now and see how I feel about it with a larger pool of divinity to draw from.

    Uncanny Dodge: Yippee! Though why level 5? Most classes get it at 4 or 2.
    Again, rogue-like abilities got pushed back a level.

    Divine Channeling: No. Just no. A free quicken? Not restricted to 1/day (Sudden Quicken)? With some spells it's just bad. This needs a major tone down.
    Hm. Not entirely sure what I was thinking when I wrote that. I think I'm going to limit it to 1 per day per point of Charisma modifier, and possibly tone it down further. I suppose I could just replace it with an ability to spend divinity to reduce by 1 the adjustment of a metamagic feat you know, but I don't want to get started with metamagic, because that way lies possibilities of abuse.

    Life's Mockery: Ignore what I said about turning earlier, this does it. However, you still need to say how it reacts with domain feats. Other than that: good work.
    I'll figure something out for domain feats. Probably work exactly like normal, expending turn or rebukes from your daily allotment of 1 per day per Cha to recharge them.

    Improvisation: Nice, but there is a problem: you need to spend 14 points of divinity to use this on a 5th level spell. And you can't use it on any 6th or higher spells. At 20 that's well more than half of your divinity. By expanding the pool like I suggested (maybe have it be 2xclass level+cha?), you eliminate this problem.
    Hm... Along with expanding the pool, I think I'm going to drop this to a +1 spell level adjustment, so he can snag spells of up to 6th level. I think I'm also going to change the cost of it, so that it costs the adjusted spell level + a flat 3 divinity. So grabbing a 6th level spell from the cleric spell list would use a 7th level spell slot and 10 divinity, which seems reasonable to spontaneously cast any 6th level cleric spell.

    Feats: Fine. But the last two are off. A +4 bonus to the save AND the heretic is dazed for a round? Geeze! They're going to make the save anyway!
    That feat will likely be going away quickly, since the save is disappearing. As for the luck feat, is there something in particular that's wrong with it?

    Epic Progression: problem: have Drain Divinity taper off. Spell slots don't increase past level 20, and it would not be good for in one attack a cleric to lose all his spells. This is a slight exaggeration.
    Eh. The problem with epic is that it doesn't stop. I can't really just have it stop progressing, but maybe I can slow the progression to... 1/4 levels, maybe? Honestly, I haven't got a clue when it comes to epic stuff.

    Thanks for the help! More advice would be appreciated!

    @Azerian: Except that this class only gets up to 7th level spells, and a heavily restricted spell list. In addition, he needs to pay an additional cost to use his spells. Also, check your facts: classes with full arcane spellcasting get almost no class features (in theory). Base classes with full divine spellcasting get plenty of class features; just look at the druid, favoured soul, archivist, spirit shaman, or shugenja. And, like I said, this isn't even a full spellcaster.

    @ Primal Fury: I'd have to look at the moonspeaker, but if it's just a class that gives a new progression of spells, it would be completely different. He'd have two different progressions of spells. The spells from the heretic would cost divinity, the spells from the prestige class would not. Just like if he multiclassed into cleric. The spells he casts from the cleric class wouldn't cost divinity, since they use cleric spell slots.

    As for learning new spells by dint of class feature, I suppose they'd just be always available to spontaneously cast, since they're added to his class spell list, which is made up of the domains he picks each day. In your example, planar ally spells and gate are in the Summoner domain from Spell Compendium. So if he picked that domain for the day, the class feature would be moot. If he didn't pick that domain for the day, the spells wouldn't be on his class spell list, so they'd be added to it until such time as they are.

    EDIT: I've made the above changes, and also added text in the spellcasting section to clarify the above point to Primal Fury.
    Last edited by Kellus; 2008-03-20 at 07:24 PM.

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    Default Re: You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    My bad, no problem with the luck feat. I meant to get rid of the "two". I looked at it again and thought it was fine. Also, my bad on the math. Never mind about expanding the pool for now, I was under the impression that 20x2=20. Doh! And that 20x3=40. Yeah. Though I will look at this version and see if i see any problems. Wow, this is the largest number of major mistakes I have ever made while PEACHing. At least, since last September.

    Now, you might want something to change it from the spellthief, since this is a more powerful ability, but that might be handled by the fact that this class doesn't have SA and the fact that the Spellthief can cast the stolen spell.

    I have to say I want to play this class now. I just don't know how effective it will be against non-divine characters. Probably just a small bit of less effectiveness, since you can always take War Domain and be a melee tank.

    I like the epic change. It's not a insta-cleric kill button anymore.

    You know, if you made Divine Channeling more like the duskblade arcane channeling, it would work. You forgo gaining divinity and spend the divinity as part of casting a touch range spell, and can cast it as part of the melee attack. Not as a swift action. This means that you have to spend a part of your limited amount of divinity (lower the max back down to 40, I was stupid) that you can't gain back, meaning you can't keep doing this forever. It's a nice balance between choices. If you make this change I think the class will be ready to play.

    Your total cookie revenue from me for this class: 2. I love it, and I love the mechanic of divinity. Good job.

    EDIT: About Moonspeaker: it grants spells to your class list iirc. And those are 8th/9th level spells. Well, I think this class would get them, but wouldn't be able to cast them, since they don't have the spell slots.
    Last edited by dman11235; 2008-03-20 at 09:29 PM.
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    Default Re: You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    Superb. I dropped the divine vessel down to twice the class level, and made divine channeling more like the duskblade's arcane channeling, as you suggested.

    As for the moonspeaker, the heretic would gain the spells to his spell list, but would not be able to cast them if they're 8th or 9th level. However, if he, theoretically, needed to qualify for a feat that required him to know Gate, he could take the feat. He wouldn't have been able to take the feat before gaining the moonspeaker feature, since he does not add the 8th and 9th level spells from a domain to his spell list when stealing a domain (as described in Spellcasting).

    As for fighting non-divine opponents, he should be fine. He can't dish out as much damage as a rogue with sneak attack, but between divine channeling of his touch spells and tricky faith to protect him, he should be fine. Like the spellthief, he shines against one type of enemy, but he'd be perfectly competent the rest of the time.

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    Default Re: You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    Wait...so flavour-wise, this guy can Atheist-afy any enemy (even a Cleric) since he steals faith? Taking this further, can he turn them into a weathered cynic with little or no trust in anybody else using a different definition of "faith".


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    Default Re: You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    very nice class, kellus. good flavor in particular. i like it. gonna have to read it again to see if i really understand it all, and how best to use it, but it is pretty cool.

    i am assuming that this guy is in some way supposed to mimic a divine caster, kinda like a false prophet or something. maybe ought to give him some sort of alignment-masking ability.

    that is assuming my guess is correct. that is just how he is appearing in my head.
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    Default Re: You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    Kellus: Cleric. 'Nuff said. No class features, unless you consider the highly useless without divine metamagic Turn undead. Not to mention both Druid and archivist are considered borkened BECAUSE they get kickass class features on top of THE class feature that is spellcasting, and that shugenja and spirit shaman got class features to compensate for how poorly they fare, with little success. Favored soul IS more or less okay, but it's amazing they actually didn't screw it up. You underestimate casting a little, I think, since even a caster with only up to level 4 spells can do lots of things (Prime example, Polymorph, Evard's black tentacles, and Solid Fog, and that's only the tip of the iceberg) that are almost autowins. I know that the temptation to add class features is great, but no dead levels plus over two thirds of casting is a bit too much.

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    Default Re: You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    Um... Yes, full spellcasting is very powerful. Spellcasting up to 7th level spells is less so. Think of it this way: would a cleric prestige class with 4/10 spellcasting be overpowered if it had class features at every level? That class would still have access to 7th level spells.

    7th level spells can be powerful, sure. But they're not nearly as powerful as 8th and 9th level spells.

    In addition, a heretic's selection of spells is extremely limited compared to the cleric, who can grab any cleric spell in existence for every spell slot he has.

    If there's a class feature you disagree with, please specify it. But don't say it's broken just because it gets something at every level. That's just silly.

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    Default Re: You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    Keep in mind that your spell list is a couple of domains. That does count for something. And you have to spend divinity to cast a spell. And the entire cleric spell list is not covered by domains, in fact, there are overlaps. And in order to get the best spells, you need to sacrifice your other spells. It gets better at higher levels with more domains, but still. It's very limited. Wilder limited, in fact.
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    Default Re: You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    Steal Anyspell and greater anyspell. BWAHAHAHA! Is the only thing to say. You are underestimating casting. Gimme the first TWO levels, and I'm going to find something utterly broken that will make it hell for a DM.

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    Default Re: You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    Okay, that's just a silly argument. Yes, spellcasting is powerful. But there are already classes that do it. Just because it has spellcasting does not make it broken.

    • Heretics will never get above 7th level spells.

    • Heretics get 7th level spells at level 18.

    • Clerics get 8th level spells at level 15.

    I agree that spellcasting is a very powerful class feature, but a heretic gives up a great deal of the power of a full spellcaster, namely 8th and 9th levels spells. In return, he gets various rogue and spellthief-like abilities. There's a reason why, in character optimization, you never give up caster levels. Because higher level spells are more powerful than lower level spells.

    Your argument seems to be that if anyone has any kind of spellcasting, they're broken. I disagree with that. If you're playing a campaign with clerics and druids (or any sort of full caster), there's no way that a heretic is going to be more powerful than them.

    As for anyspell and its ilk, it wouldn't work for a heretic. Going by the Spell Compendium, it says:

    Quote Originally Posted by Spell Compendium, page 15
    When you cast the arcane spell, it works just as though by a wizard of your cleric level.
    A heretic doesn't have cleric levels, so he wouldn't be able to prepare an arcane spell with anyspell.

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    Default Re: You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    So yeah ... it's been awhile sense anyone chimed in on this class. so here is my 2 cents

    ZOMGILUVEWES4THISCLASS!!!!

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    Awesome Class ... Now I just have to get my DM to allow this Homebrew

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    Default Re: You have been... DIVINDICATED! [Base Class, PEACH]

    Hmm...this CadonMado, the mystical powers of Threadomancy flow strongly thorough your veins.....

    Back to the class, though, divine rogue? Nice.
    Spellcasting: A heretic casts divine spells, which are drawn from his spell list. Unlike a cleric, his alignment doesn’t restrict him from casting spells with a moral or ethical descriptor opposed to his own alignment.
    His own list, like a hexblade, or from the cleric's spell list? If it's from a Heretic Spell List, I'm not seeing it

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