Archer

[MammonAzrael]

This thread made me realize there really aren't any good options out there for archers. So, I propose we try to build an Archer base class, focused, obviously, on archery. First, some basic outline sketches:



Archer
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d8
Skill Points: 4 + Intelligence modifer (x4 at 1st level)
Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (History) (Int), Martial Lore (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis)

{table=head]Level|

Base Attack[br]Bonus

|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|

Precision[br]Range

|Special

1st|

+1

|

+0

|

+2

|

+0

|30'|Deadly Precision, Ranged Weapon Aptitude

2nd|

+2

|

+0

|

+3

|

+0

|40'|Point Blank Shot

3rd|

+3

|

+1

|

+3

|

+1

|40'|Deadly Marksmanship, Sitting Duck

4th|

+4

|

+1

|

+4

|

+1

|50'|Ranged Precision 1d8

5th|

+5

|

+1

|

+4

|

+1

|50'|Close Combat Shot

6th|

+6/+1

|

+2

|

+5

|

+2

|60'|Farsight, Bonus Feat

7th|

+7/+2

|

+2

|

+5

|

+2

|60'|Expert Sniper

8th|

+8/+3

|

+2

|

+6

|

+2

|70'|Ranged Precision 2d8

9th|

+9/+4

|

+3

|

+6

|

+3

|70'|Reactive Shot

10th|

+10/+5

|

+3

|

+7

|

+3

|80'|Arcing Shot, Bonus Feat

11th|

+11/+6/+1

|

+3

|

+7

|

+3

|80'|Piercing Shot

12th|

+12/+7/+2

|

+4

|

+8

|

+4

|90'|Ranged Precision 3d8

13th|

+13/+8/+3

|

+4

|

+8

|

+4

|90'|

14th|

+14/+9/+4

|

+4

|

+9

|

+4

|100'|Bonus Feat

15th|

+15/+10/+5

|

+5

|

+9

|

+5

|100'|

16th|

+16/+11/+6/+1

|

+5

|

+10

|

+5

|110'|Ranged Precision 4d8

17th|

+17/+12/+7/+2

|

+5

|

+10

|

+5

|110'|

18th|

+18/+13/+8/+3

|

+6

|

+11

|

+6

|120'|Bonus Feat

19th|

+19/+14/+9/+4

|

+6

|

+11

|

+6

|120'|

20th|

+20/+15/+10/+5

|

+6

|

+12

|

+6

|130'|Hail of Arrows, Ranged Precision 5d8[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
An archer is proficient with all simple weapons, ranged weapons, and with light and medium armor, but not shields.

Deadly Precision (Ex)
The archer has spent countless hours training to place his shots accurately, to inflict the maximum amount of damage with arrow or bolt. An archer may add his Dexterity modifier to all damage he deals with ranged weapons as precision damage. At 5th level this damage is no longer considered precision damage.

Additionally, an archer may deal precision damage with ranged weapons as long as he is within 30' + 10' per 2 class levels.

Ranged Weapon Aptitude (Ex)
As the Warblade ability, but only with ranged weapons.

Point Blank Shot
At 2nd level the archer gains the Point Blank Shot feat for free. If you already have Point Blank Shot you may select another feat for which you meet the prerequisites from the list of archer bonus feats (below).

Deadly Marksmanship (Ex)
At 3rd level all ranged weapons the archer wields are treated as having a critical threat range 1 larger (a threat range of 20 becomes 19-20). At 7th level their critical multiplier is treated as being 1 larger (a multiplier of x3 becomes x4). At 11th level the critical threat range increases by an additional 1 (a normal threat range of 20 is considered 18-20). At 15th level the critical multiplier increases by an addition 1 (a normal multiplier of x3 is considered x5). These increases are applied after effects that increase critical threat ranges and multipliers (like Improved Critical).

Sitting Duck (Ex)
At 3rd level an archer may spend a full round action, during which he focuses on his target, excluding everything else from thought, and then unleashes a single ranged attack. He gets a +1 bonus on this attack roll, and it ignores all interference from weather conditions (including spells like Wind Wall), and he receives a -2 penalty to AC until his next turn. At 6th level he may ignore miss chances from concealment and spells like blur. At 11th level he may make a second shot and his AC penalty is reduced to -1. At 16th level he gets an additional +1 bonus on his attack roll, and he no longer receives a penalty to AC. At 20th level he may fire a third arrow, and the attacks are ranged touch attacks.

Ranged Precision
At 4th level the archer deal an extra 1d8 points of precision damage on ranged attacks. This damage increases an additional 1d8 every 4 levels (2d8 at 8th, 3d8 at 12th, 4d8 at 16th, and 5d8 at 20th). Since it is precision damage it cannot be applied to creatures immune to critical hits.

Close Combat Shot (Ex)
At 5th level an archer can attack with a ranged weapon while in a threatened square and not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Farsight (Ex)
At 6th level, an archer has practiced enough that he gains great visual acuity. He suffers only half the normal penalty on his Spot checks because of distance. In addition, an archer takes only half the normal penalty on ranged attacks per range increment.

Bonus Feat
At 6th level the archer gains a bonus feat from the list given below. You must meet the prerequisites for the feat you select. Every 4 levels thereafter (10th, 14th, and 18th), you choose another bonus feat from the list.
Bonus Feat List: Able Sniper, Bowslinger, Deadeye Shot, Far Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Improved Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Penetrating Shot, Plunging Shot, Precise Shot, Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin, Ranged Sunder, Ranged Weapon Mastery - Bludgeoning/Piercing/Slashing, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Sharp-Shooting, Shot on the Run, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization (ranged weapons only), Woodland Archer, Zen Archery.

Expert Sniper (Ex)
When attempting a Hide check after making a ranged attack while hidden (aka, ‘Sniping’), a 7th level archer only receives a –10 penalty on his Hide check (instead of the standard –20). At 13th level he doesn't take any penalty. At 19th level as a Full Round Attack, the archer may “sacrifice” one shot to increase his critical threat range on a single shot in that Full Attack by 1. Multiple attacks may be sacrificed. The bonus is only for one shot & does not carry over from round to round.

Reactive Shot (Ex)
At 9th level, if a creature within 15' of you takes an action that provokes an Attack of Opportunity, you may make a single ranged attack against it at your highest attack bonus. This consumes all of your remaining Attacks of Opportunity for the round. At 13th level it only uses 1 of your Attacks of Opportunity. At 17th level the range increases to 30'.

Arcing Shot (Ex)
At 10th level an archer can fire a high, arcing shot to gain greater range with his projectile weapon. Any time the archer can fire a projectile weapon in an area with at least 40' of clearance between his position and the ceiling (or any other overhead obstruction), his maximum range with the projectile weapon is 15 range increments rather than the normal 10 range increments.

Piercing Shot (Ex)
At 11th level an archer becomes extraordinarily skilled at finding chinks in the armor of nearby foes. Archers may ignore any armor bonuses to the AC of a target within 30'. At 15th level the archer may use this ability against targets up to 60' away.

Hail of Arrows (Su)
At 20th level, as a full round action, an archer can fire an arrow at each target within range. Each attack uses the archer's highest attack bonus and each enemy may only be targeted by a single arrow.

My ideas

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• Dex modifier to all ranged damaged
• Increased crit range/modifier (to represent the deadly precision of archers)
• Extra damage dice (precision damage?)
• Extra movement (ala Scout)
• Extended range
• Bonus Feats (archery focused/specific feats only?)
• Called shots
• Decreased penalties to hit
• Doesn't provoke AoOs
• May make ranged AoOs
• Initiative bonus
• Always acts/gets a surprise round (yay, range)
• Trick shots
• Save of die when crit confirmation is also a threat.

Archery oriented feats

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• Able Sniper (Races of the Wild)
• Bow Feint (Dragon Magazine 350)
• Bowslinger (Underdark)
• Concealed Ambush (Dragon Magazine 339)
• Coordinated Archery (Dragon Magazine 316)
• Crossbow Sniper (Player's Handbook II)
• Deadeye Shot (Player's Handbook II)
• Defensive Archery (Races of the Wild)
• Efficient Pull (Dragon Magazine 350)
• Far Shot (Player's Handbook, Complete Adventurer)
• Improved Precise Shot (Player's Handbook)
• Improved Rapid Shot (Complete Warrior)
• Manyshot (Player's Handbook)
• Penetrating Shot (Player's Handbook II)
• Plunging Shot (Races of the Wild)
• Point Blank Shot (Player's Handbook, Complete Adventurer)
• Precise Shot (Player's Handbook, Complete Adventurer)
• Ranged Disarm (Complete Warrior)
• Ranged Pin (Complete Warrior)
• Ranged Sunder (Complete Warrior)
• Ranged Threat (Dragon Magazine 350)
• Ranged Weapon Mastery – Bludgeoning (Player's Handbook II)
• Ranged Weapon Mastery – Piercing (Player's Handbook II)
• Ranged Weapon Mastery – Slashing (Player's Handbook II)
• Rapid Reload (Player's Handbook, Complete Adventurer)
• Rapid Shot (Player's Handbook)
• Sharp-Shooting (Complete Warrior)
• Shot on the Run (Player's Handbook, Complete Adventurer)
• Woodland Archer (Races of the Wild)
• Zen Archery (Complete Warrior)

Ranged feats, descriptions, and their sources can be found on page 31 of Crystal Keeps Feat PDF.

Abilities from Prestige Classes

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Arcane Archer (DMG)

• Enhance Arrow: Increases the enhancement bonus of arrows
• Imbue Arrow: Imbues arrow with temporary area spell
• Seeker Arrow: Arrow can hit target without line of sight/effect
• Phase Arrow: Arrow ignores nonmagical barriers
• Hail of Arrows: Attack each opponent within range
• Arrow of Death: Create arrow with a save or die effect

Cragtop Archer (Races of Stone)

• Farsight: Half penalty on ranged attacks per increment
• Strike from above: +2 damage to ranged attacks when on higher ground
• Arcing Shot: 15 range increment max, instead of 10
• Horizon Shot: Can ignore range penalty as full-round action

Order of the Bow Initiate (Complete Warrior)

• Ranged precision: 1d8-5d8 ranged precision damage
• Close Combat Shot: ranged attacks don't provoke AoOs
• Extended precision: ranged precision damage at up to 60'

Well, what do you guys think? What would you add/suggest/etc? Did I miss any official material? Come on, lets get D&D a decent archer!
Oh, and fluff is always welcome.


EDITS

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Edit #1

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• Added class skills: Balance, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Jump, Knowledge: History, Martial Lore, Move Silently, Profession, Ride, Spot
• Added Deadly Precision
• Added Deadly Marksmanship

Edit #2

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• Added Close Combat Shot
• Edited Deadly Precision to deal precision damage first, then normal damage at lv5; added increased precision damage range of 30'+10'/class level.
• Edited Deadly Marksmanship to +1 increases, and made them stack with other modifiers.
• Added Ranged Precision
• Removed the "non-exotic" stipulation from ranged weapons the archer is proficient with.
• Added Farsight
• Added Reactive Shot
• Added Arcing Shot
• Added Between the Eyes

Edit #3

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• Added Ranged Weapon Aptitude
• Added Point Blank Shot as a free feat at level 2.
• Added bonus feats at 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th levels.
• Added Expert Sniper
• Added Piercing Shot
• Added Hail of Arrows

Edit #4

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• Added Sitting Duck

Edit #5

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• Cleaned up the formating
• Cleaned up Deadly Precision, Deadly Marksmanship, Expert Sniper, Sitting Duck
• Removed "Between the Eyes"
• Moved Close Combat Shot to 5th level
• Reduced the range of Reactive Shot

Between the Eyes

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Between the Eyes (Ex): At 5th level whenever the archer's attack hits, threatens a critical hit, and the confirmation roll is also a critical threat, the attacked creature must succeed on a Fort save (DC 10 + 1/2 class level + Dex modifier) or die (drop to -10 HP).

[Night Shrike]

Ok, I'm currently working on the "Combat Sniper" PrC right now. So maybe I can help out.

I like the skill points. An archery class wont have the staying power or the melee options of a fighter or barb, so they'll rely more heavily on they're skills.

Class Skills should Include: Balance(Dex), Climb(Str), Craft(Int), Handle Animal(Cha), Hide(Dex), Jump(Str), Move Silently(Dex), Profession(Wis), Ride(Dex), Spot(Wis)

I think all of those would be expected as class skills for an archery based class. Tho I'm not saying those are the ONLY class skills an archer should have, these are just the ones I could justify off the top of my head.

The saves are fine as they are. Good reflex, bad fort/will is a pretty standard setup for a ranged class. It's proven and tested.

As far as special abilities are concerned, I like your idea of the martial class. Archer should be a fighter like class, only foucused on well...archery! Derr. I suggest either specific bonus feats every other level, (Like 1st lvl-Point Blank Shot, exc) or a list of approved feats that a player may choose from as bounus feats at certain levels. (kinda like a ranger)

I want to make a comment tho. As far as Archery is concerned, won't a ranger with the right feats become about as dangerous as any base class archer really could? I mean, at least as far as the current classes go? Besides, a ranger even has more skill points than this class already would.

Just some food for thought, hoe my post helps.

[Ascension]

I'm very interested in this, but I don't have time for a full overview right now. I do have one comment I want to make before I go, though... you really ought to give the class buckler proficiency. I know you can wear a darkwood buckler without penalty even if you aren't proficient, but really, an archer class should be able to equip a buckler.

[MammonAzrael]

*nod* I noticed the several archer-related PrCs on the first page just after I posted. I agree with your skills, and we can probably come up with some more. As for the ranger, I want the archer to have specific, class features that set it apart, and not just feats (otherwise there'd be little point to making the class). And all Ranger really does is give you a couple free feats when you focus on archery, nothing special.

Ascension, good point about the bucklers. Hard for one to get in the way, especially since it could double as a wrist gaurd.

Anyways, I've got to run to work, so more in depth posting and pondering tonight!

[Arakune]

Skill points: 2+Int.
Skills: Concentration (Con), Balance (Dex), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Hide (Dex), Move silently (Dex), Listen (Wis).

Class features:

1-5: something cool but mundande and martial
6-10: something really cool and maybe unlikely but consistent with the class
11-15: you can go to supernatural territory.
16-20: this is the WTFOMG!!! place.

Example:

Deadly precision [Ex] (lvl 1): You can addition your dex mod to damage. This extra damage are precision damage, so creatures immune to it will not take it.

[MammonAzrael]

I've never really understood why martial-oriented classes only get 2+int skill points. I get it for classes that derive most of their power from innate talents, like the Sorcerer, but classes like Fighter I believe should get at least 4+Int, to reflect both their hard training, and the studying they'd invariably be doing into tactics and such while not in the practice yard.

Overall, I'd like this class to be closer in power level to the Tome of Battle classes, than the PHB classes. Updating the first post...

[Miles Invictus]

Agreed on the skill points thing -- in my game, Fighters get six (though that's because it only has two players).

Some general thoughts:
It needs abilities that specifically negate spellcaster defenses. For a start, allow it to break Wind Wall at low levels and Force effects at high levels. It also needs some maneuver-like abilities (think trick shots -- ranged disarms and the like) so the player has interesting actions to perform. Give it proficiency with all ranged weapons; most exotic weapons aren't worth feats, so this is as much for flavor as mechanics.

If you were inclined towards magical abilities, I would suggest blending the Duskblade and Arcane Archer.

[MammonAzrael]

The penetration of magical defenses is a great idea, since there seem to be a lot that laugh off missile weapons. That is certainly needed.

The only reason I specified non-exotic ranged weapons is because I haven't seen most of them, so I don't know what they're capable of, what their specs are and such. So I played it on the safe side. But I do need to look through them.

I'd like this class to be as martial as possible, but maybe some supernatural talents at the very later levels could be possible. I think it'd work even better as magical prestige classes, though you picked a great two classes to blend for the idea.


PS: And sorry it took me so long to update the first post after saying I was going to. Got sidetracked by something important and couldn't update til just now.

[Arakune]

I did it as precision damage because it's a 1st level power. Around 6th, nth level you upgrade it as normal damage and at mth level you could get a special 'power attack' for arrows.

[MammonAzrael]

Ahh, well that's a bit different, and a good suggestion.

[Eldariel]

Something to consider:

Dragon 310 had Targetteer-variant for Fighter. It had the following abilities available instead of Fighter Feats:

-Swarm of Arrows (prerequisite: Rapid Shot) - Take -5 on all attacks for two extra attacks in a turn.
-Vital Aim - Use Dex for damage over Strength if your Strength modifier isn't negative. Works only against living creatures. (this would work instead of Deadly Precision as it works at any range, but still not against Undead)
-Sniper - You can sacrifice attacks on a full attack, each sacrificed attack giving one attack +1 threat range on the shot.


I think you may want to incorporate something of the sort. Further, you may want to incorporate some sort of Fletching-abilities for someone who uses bows whole his life; it'd make sense he'd be pretty good at fletching the arrows since it seems more like a rule that an archer in woodlands would end up doing that a lot so at least the option of such abilities seems flavourful.


Skillpoints should be at least 4+Int to make going for Sniping an option; you'll need maxed Spot to shoot at long ranges anyways. You may want to give the 'Ranged X'-series of feats from CW as bonus feats; they aren't that powerful, but flavourful and interesting additional options for a ranged character that can otherwise be rather bland to play.

[Ascension]

I like what we've got so far. I think we need some abilities for at least levels 14, 18, and 20 (as a capstone). A few dead levels are fine, but the two spots where we have three of 'em in a row look ugly.

Alright, these are probably too powerful, but here are my recommendations...

Piercing Shot (Ex): At fourteenth level an archer becomes extraordinarily skilled at finding chinks in the armor of nearby foes. Archers may ignore any armor bonuses to the AC of a target within 30'. At eighteenth level the archer may use this ability against targets up to 60' away.

Penetrating Shot (Ex): At twentieth level an archer puts enough force into his shots to punch straight through a creature. He does double his ranged precision damage to a large creature, triple to a huge creature, quadruple to a gargantuan creature, and quintuple to a colossal creature. This ability does not affect creatures immune to precision damage. (I'm thinking this one needs a fort save or something, but I don't know what DC it should be at)

I say these are overpowered because they basically turn the archer into a one-man wyrm-hunter when he gets to 20th level. Dragons have pitiful dexterity. Maybe have piercing shot only affect "unnatural" armor?

Oh, and whatever happened to the 'power-attack for archers' idea? Maybe a feat instead of an ability?

Also, I'd move Between the Eyes up a bit... it seems pretty brutal, especially combined with Deadly Marksmanship.

EDIT: The idea for Penetrating Shot came from a video I watched of one of my professors putting an arrow straight through the heart of a buffalo and clean out through the other side of the animal. The poor creature dropped pretty quickly after that. Granted he was using a high-tech bow, but I figure if a college professor can do that to a buffalo (a Large creature), a near-epic archer should be able to do it to a dragon. Maybe have it scale? Get Penetrating Shot (Large) at an early level, building to Penetrating Shot (Colossal) at level 20?

[MammonAzrael]

Okay, this is by far my most popular hombrew yet.

Eldariel:

Thanks for pointing out the Targetteer, I had missed it (obviously). Vital Aim is pretty much already taken care of. Swarm of Arrows looks to be a type of Greater Rapid Shot, and there is nothing wrong with that. The Sniper ability is pretty cool, but I'm slightly nervous as to how that would line up with Deadly Marksmanship and Between the Eyes.

Fletching is a good call, maybe reduce the price of crafting Arrows? The ability to craft ranged weapons? Hmm....

The Ranged Sunder/Disarm/etc are a good idea to split from the simple "I shoot it dead" turns.

Ascension:

Yeah, I'd like to avoid dead levels. They suck.

Piercing Shot is interesting, and makes a pretty good incentive for close range at later levels (knocking off 9 AC from a fighter? )

Penetrating Shot is actually the name of a feat in PHBII and turns your projectile weapon attack into a 60' line. But the idea you have is interesting. I bit cumbersome, and "teh nutz" against bigger creatures (25d8 damage per attack against a colossal creature, and at least 4 attacks? 100d8!!! ) And while that's crazy awesome, I think the capstone ability should probably be more applicable to all creatures, not just enormous ones.

And as you have Piercing Shot worded, I don't believe that it would ignore natural armor, since I think that is a different bonus.

Power Attack for archers is interesting, but it doesn't seem realistic in any way. Perhaps do the opposite? Take a penalty on damage for an increase on the attack roll?

I'm not sure about where Between the Eyes belongs myself. The reason for putting it there was that since lv 5-6 is pretty much the perfection of "real-world" archers, I wanted them to have access to it. At that point Deadly Marksmanship will have increased the threat range by 1 (19-20 for almost all ranged weapons) which means that you have a 1% chance of activating Between the Eyes. And at that point the DC will be about 15-17. The big nastiness only comes later, but you still can get those awesome moments at lower levels when you get it. Even having a threat range of 13-20 will only activate Between the Eyes 16% of the time, and you still can save. Unless of course I'm being horridly retarded with my math.

EDIT: Ok, I updated it again. And as for dead levels, it's currently looking like this:

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1 | Deadly Precision, Ranged Weapon Aptitude
2 | Close Combat Shot, Point Blank Shot
3 | Dealy Marksmanship
4 | Ranged Precision 1d8
5 | Between the Eyes, DP Increase
6 | Farsight, Bonus Feat
7 | Expert Sniper, DM increase
8 | Ranged Precision 2d8
9 | Reactive shot
10 | Arcing Shot, Bonus Feat
11 | DM increase
12 | Ranged Precision 3d8
13 | ES increase, RS increase
14 | Bonus Feat
15 | DM increase
16 | Ranged Precision 4d8
17 | RS increase
18 | Bonus Feat
19 | ES increase
20 | Hail of Arrows, Ranged Precision 5d8

[MammonAzrael]

OK, this is gonna be quick, since I don't want to forget about it, but another ability I thought about:

Sitting Duck (Ex): At 3rd level an archer may spend a full-attack action to focus on his target, excluding everything else from thought. He fires a single ranged attack that ignores Wind Wall and he gets a -2 penalty to AC. At 6th level he may ignore miss chances from concealment and spells like blur. At 11th level he may make a second shot and his AC penalty is reduced by 1. At 16th level he may fire through effects like Wall of Force or Force Cage and the attacks are ranged touch attacks. At 20th level he may fire a third arrow, and he no longer receives a penalty to AC.

Okay, it's very rough at the moment, and I'm quite sure i don't know all the different effects that affect ranged weapons. I'm also sure that when he gets the various abilities could stand to be tweaked. Like I said, I just wanted it up before I forgot about it. What do you think?

[Uncle Festy]

Sitting Duck (Ex): At 3rd level an archer may spend a full round action, during which he focuses on his target, excluding everything else from thought, and then fires a single ranged attack. He gets a +1 bonus on this attack roll, and it ignores all interference from weather conditions (including Wind Wall), and he gets a -2 penalty to AC until his next turn. At 6th level he may ignore miss chances from concealment and spells like blur. At 11th level he may make a second shot and his AC penalty is reduced by 1. At 16th level he may fire through effects like Wall of Force or Force Cage and the attacks are ranged touch attacks. At 20th level he may fire a third arrow, he gets an additional +1 bonus on his attack roll, and he no longer receives a penalty to AC.

Suggestions are bolded in the quote.

[MammonAzrael]

It looks good Uncle Festy, thanks. I'm updating now.

...is it just me, or does it seem like this class is getting awfully ability heavy and may be in need of some trimming or streamlining?

[Magnor Criol]

A few comments:
--I'm not quite sold on Sitting Duck's ability to ignore things like Wind Wall, at least not from the start. That seems kinda strong for so early. Then again, I'm not very familiar with Wind Wall so I don't know.

--Arcing Shot seems like it could be moved up earlier in the class - that seems like something pretty simple that someone dedicating themselves to archery would learn pretty soon in their career. But once again, I'm not sure how powerful that is, so maybe it fits there best power-wise.

--If the archer can use Piercing Shot because he's good at finding chinks in the armor, perhaps a restriction involving studying them - i.e., they have to be subject to his Sitting Duck ability - before he gains the bonus against them is in order.
Or, maybe, at 11th level they have to Sitting Duck them to get the bonus; at 15th level they get it automatically against enemies within 30' and have to Sitting Duck those out to 60'.

Overall, I really like this class, good job on it. My comments should be taken with a grain of salt; people more experienced than I haven't seemed to raise these problems, so they may well be invalid.

[Ascension]

...is it just me, or does it seem like this class is getting awfully ability heavy and may be in need of some trimming or streamlining?

We may have overdone the awesome a liiiiiiittle bit in trying to overcome all the years of archer oppression that D&D has given us in the past.

[Pie Guy]

[QUOTE=MammonAzrael;4083938]
Power Attack for archers is interesting, but it doesn't seem realistic in any way. Perhaps do the opposite? Take a penalty on damage for an increase on the attack roll?

I've got an idea for something.
Once, at my summer camp, there was an archery tournament, and, regardless of my skill, I entered. I was about to aim when suddenly I accidentally let go. And, guess what.
Bulls eye.
Right down the middle.

So I know this is probably cliched, but maybe like a once per hour lucky shot?

[MammonAzrael]

Magnor Criol: Sitting Duck is (obviously) the most recent addition, so has the least amount of review. I feel that the Archer will need some way to get through spells like Windwall, since otherwise they'll be completely hosed later. Though you may be right that you get it too early.

Arcing Shot is roughly where you could get it officially (since it's an ability of Cragtop Archer). But yeah, it could probably be gotten earlier, since you'd still take increasing penalties.

That's a good idea for Piercing Shot.

And thanks for voicing your opinions, I want every one I can get.


Pie Guy: Interesting idea (and congrats on the shot), but that seems to be the type of thing that fits better into feats and customization, rather than a class feature. The lucky/skilled shots are the criticals.

Ascension: Yeah, probably. Any ideas? Since right now I really don't want to prune anything. Hopefully we'll get some more people in here with their suggestions.

[smart thog]

[URL="http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75044"]

Reactive Shot (Ex): At 9th level, if a creature within 30' of you takes an action that provokes an Attack of Opportunity, you may make a single ranged attack against him/her/it at your highest attack bonus. This consumes all of your remaining Attacks of Opportunity for the round. At 13th level it only uses 1 of your Attacks of Opportunity. At 17th level the range increases to 60'.

Arcing Shot (Ex): At 10th level an archer can fire a high, arcing shot to gain greater range with his projectile weapon. Any time the archer can fire a projectile weapon in an area with at least 40' of clearance between his position and the ceiling (or any other overhead obstruction), his maximum range with the projectile weapon is 15 range increments rather than the normal 10 range increments.

Piercing Shot (Ex): At 11th level an archer becomes extraordinarily skilled at finding chinks in the armor of nearby foes. Archers may ignore any armor bonuses to the AC of a target within 30'. At 15th level the archer may use this ability against targets up to 60' away.

Hail of Arrows (Su): At 20th level, as a full round action, an archer can fire an arrow at each target within range. Each attack uses the archer's highest attack bonus and each enemy may only be targeted by a single arrow. Yeah, it's ridiculous and the only Supernatural ability thus far, but I figured if I was going to make a capstone ability for a near-epic archer, it might as well be one hell of a capstone. Good luck not running out of arrows though. And yeah, it'll probably get reduced in some form, if it stays. It's just a starting point, after all.

The first one is WAY overpowered, particularly at 13th level, were you can shoot anything that moves near you. Take away the add ons for it.

The second one should only ignore half of the targets armor bonus.

The third one is really balanced I must say.

[MammonAzrael]

You quoted four abilities. I'm assuming your first comment is directed towards Reactive Shot. What if we removed the 60' at 17th, and moved the "it only uses 1 of your Attacks of Opportunity" to 17th (or higher)?

I'm assuming your second comment refers to Piercing Shot. Why only ignore half the armor?

And I'm guessing your third comment is directed at Hail of Arrows. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. And if you're referring to Arcing Shot, it's balanced because I stole it from Cragtop Archer (RoS).

[teennerd4684]

Seems awesome to me!

A question and two criticisms:

Q: When you say that deadly marksmanship "stacks" with Imp Crit, do you mean that it's doubled with the rest, or that it's added after the doubling?

C: The between the eyes ability is kinda overpowered if you fifth level. I mean, even with the DC probably being around 15 or 16, you're gonna have monsters having to roll 10+ more often than usual with the deadly precision ability, especially when they finally get Imp crit at 9th level (or 8th, if they multiclass fighter for the quicker benefit). Also, maybe elves should be able to count it as favored class. Ideas for that would be to have them choose at first level, or to have the first one they take a level in be the FC (probably the second).

Anyway, I've tried countless times to make archer classes, none of which even made it past the drawing board.

BTW, if you don't copyright this, I'll probably start selling it.

[MammonAzrael]

Deadly Marksmanship: If you take a weapon with a threat range of 20, Improved Critical increases it to 19-20, and natural threat range of 19-20 is increased to 17-20. This is based of the weapons base threat range. If you're an Archer 10th level or less with Imp Crit, then a threat range of 20 is increased to 18-20 (19-20 for Imp Crit, +1 to 18-20 from DM) 11th level and higher in increases by 2.

Basically, apply whatever crit increasing abilities you have, and then add 1 to the threat range if you're 10th lv or less, or 2 if you've hit 11th lv.

Was that too obscure? It sounds in my head like I didn't explain it well...

Between the Eyes I wanted to get in there while the class was still in the realms of technical possibility (lv6 is generally considered the max real life level). And at level 5, if you're wielding a ranged weapon with a 18-20 threat range (increased to 17-20 from DM) you only have a 4% chance of triggering BtE. And then they get a save. And there are only a couple ranged weapons with that threat range, and they generally suck. The most common weapon, the longbow would have a 19-20 threat range and a 5th level Archer would have only a 1% chance of triggering BtE. Even at 20th level when wielding the 18-20 weapon you only have a 16% chance of getting a BtE shot.

Elves could certainly treat this as a favored class, and I'm sure there are a couple other races out there at least. That's a pretty easy DM change if they run the class.

I'm glad you like it. I hope you enjoy using it if you get the chance! And yeah, don't forget to credit me and all that joy. Copyrighted and whatnot joyousness.

[Swift06]

Just more contributing thoughts....

What about special abilities that the archer could do with the bow during melee? You've said that this class should be as martial as possible, and they're not proficient with shields. Maybe the archer could have a feat that improves his AC by using his bow as a 'shield' to try and deflect blows during melee combat.

[Baron Corm]

Here is my version which was made for the same reason. Some similar ideas there, if you want to mix and match, or turn some things into feats instead of class features. One thing I would do on yours is get rid of the dead levels.

[imp_fireball]

Hail of Arrows (Su): At 20th level, as a full round action, an archer can fire an arrow at each target within range. Each attack uses the archer's highest attack bonus and each enemy may only be targeted by a single arrow.

This feat is exactly the same as the 'swarm of arrows' epic feat (in the srd). It'd be nice if you could change it. Perhaps allow epic range associated bonus feats? Or perhaps a feat that doubles the amount of shots granted by many shot/rapid shot/improved many shot? All of these choices offer about the same balance.

Also the feat isn't that overpowered considering arrows hardly do any damage whatsoever, compared to say, a widened fireball that could deal 36 damage to everyone within sight (if the wizard has fire resistance or is flying overhead, ie.).

Maybe a feat that allows you to combine swarm of arrows and shot on the run to allow swarm of arrows to become a move action (but prevents any further attack actions) and instead allows movement, as well as attacks on new creatures that appear within range after movement?

Just some ideas.

[SoD]

Just more contributing thoughts....

What about special abilities that the archer could do with the bow during melee? You've said that this class should be as martial as possible, and they're not proficient with shields. Maybe the archer could have a feat that improves his AC by using his bow as a 'shield' to try and deflect blows during melee combat.

The basic aim for this class is to create an "archer", which is old latin for "not-melee". And I'm afraid that I feel using a bow as a sheild...doesn't sound that possible (mind you, using TWD for a sheild bonus from a dagger, or arguabley, a fist is just as proposterous, if not more so). A dodge bonus, maybe. *sniff sniff* do I smell thread necromancy?

Oh, and for the record, I'm planning on using this class for an upcoming character (as soon as a new campaign in my area starts). I'll let you know how it goes!

[Lyndworm]

Actually, you can't use TWD unless wielding two weapons. The feat states that unarmed strikes don't count.

Zack

[SoD]

Dual-weild spiked gauntlets. "A-ha! I block your sword with my spikey fist!"