Skill Focus versus Combat Casting

[Maerok]

It seems like Skill Focus (a static +3 bonus for Concentration) would be better than Combat Casting (+4 bonus to Concentration when casting defensively) by virtue of being far more versatile, except where Combat Casting has been used as a prerequisite. I'm trying to build a mostly SRD-only Paladin/Battle Sorc gish for an upcoming game, and I was going to take one of these feats (or maybe both if it is advised).

[SamTheCleric]

It's generally accepted that if you don't need combat casting as a pre-req for a prestige class, you should just take Skill Focus.

[Maerok]

Ok. Hmm, well it turns out that Abjurant Champion needed CC anyway. And if I'm going AC with Battle Sorceror, should I really be taking the Battlecaster feat to up my armor all the way to heavy? Or does the +5 to +9 from mage armor (and eventually greater mage armor boosted with the Abj Champ's ability) and then the +5 to +9 bonus from shield do more for me with less feats?

[MorkaisChosen]

Mage Armour doesn't stack with normal armour.

[SamTheCleric]

Mage Armor is actually a Conjuration spell, so it doesn't get the benefits from Abjurant Champion...

Shield, however, will eventually be a +9 shield bonus.

I believe there's also a spell called Luminous Armor out of Book of Exhalted Deeds that applies. Protection from Evil's deflection bonus is also bumped up.

EDIT: Having been working on a Fighter-mage build myself.... +1 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt (+5 Armor Bonus) and +1 Twilight Mithral Heavy Steel Shield (+3 Shield Bonus)... costs around 10k for both... but you get the same benefits of having normal Mage Armor + Shield (+8 to AC) with no spell failure at all. Could just take regular sorcerer and be fine :)

[Kurald Galain]

It is also a distinct possibility to not take either feat; it's not that hard to boost your concentration skill high enough with regular skill points and the high constitution you probably want anyway. Metamagic feats are more fun.

Rather than playing a battle sorcerer / abjurant champion, I'd recommend taking a Duskblade (from PHB2) which comes pre-equipped with good armor and a full BAB.

[Maerok]

Alright, so AC doesn't warrant giving up my Battlecaster feats? I thought for a bit that mage armor was abjuration like shield.

My plan is (19 BAB, 17 base CL):
Paladin of Freedom 2/Battle Sorceror 4/Abjurant Champ 5/Eldritch Knight 9
H: Improved Initiative
1: Combat Casting
3: Battle Caster (Medium)
6: Somatic Weaponry
9: Battle Caster (Heavy)
12: Improved Toughness

I'd consider Duskblade but I'd like to keep this as Core as possible because everyone else is new.

[SamTheCleric]

I'd consider Duskblade but I'd like to keep this as Core as possible because everyone else is new.

Personally, I'd just go with Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4... the loss of spells will eventually hurt more than any amount of armor can protect you from. I'm also not too sure about the battle caster feats... you're spending two feats just to become the tank... and you shouldnt be the tank... Those feats are better used for upping your damage (Power Attack) or Metamagic (Extend and Empower both go a -long- way for you)

[Roderick_BR]

If you are interested, I think there's a feat in Races of Stone called Shielded Casting (and the psyonic equivalent Shielded Manifestating), where you no longer provokes AoO when casting spells while using a shield. It's not an automatic roll on your Concentration check (thus being vulnerable to MageSlayer/Spellcaster Harrier), it gets rid of the concentration check at all. I may be wrong, of course. I don't have the book with me to check.
I only know is that the requisites is CC and an high Concentration rank, maybe something else.

[Nebo_]

Alright, so AC doesn't warrant giving up my Battlecaster feats? I thought for a bit that mage armor was abjuration like shield.

My plan is (19 BAB, 17 base CL):
Paladin of Freedom 2/Battle Sorceror 4/Abjurant Champ 5/Eldritch Knight 9
H: Improved Initiative
1: Combat Casting
3: Battle Caster (Medium)
6: Somatic Weaponry
9: Battle Caster (Heavy)
12: Improved Toughness

I'd consider Duskblade but I'd like to keep this as Core as possible because everyone else is new.

It's a trap! Battle Sorcerer isn't worth it at all. Don't bother with battle caster for more than medium armour, either. Mithril fullplate is medium. As long as you're a paladin, you should take Sacred Exorcist instead of Eldritch Knight.

[warmachine]

I don't think I've ever needed to make a Concentration check for anything but defensive casting. If you have used Concentration in other ways, count the number of times you've cast defensively and the number of other checks. If the ratio of defensive checks to other checks is greater than 3, Combat Casting is mathematically better. If you're in the frontline, you're likely be making a lot of defensive checks.

I would say Combat Casting is qualitively better than Skill Focus (Concentration) anyway, especially for Clerics (played as the intended defence specialist). In a battle, you absolutely cannot afford to have that spell fizzle, especially when your colleagues are in trouble and you're down to your last Remove Paralysis or Freedom of Movement.

[warmachine]

Level 20? Use the feat slot for something else. To defensively cast a level 9 spell requires a DC 24 check. With 23 ranks in Concentration and a minimum roll of 1, you can't fail (unless your CON bonus is negative).

[Kurald Galain]

IIf the ratio of defensive checks to other checks is greater than 3, Combat Casting is mathematically better. If you're in the frontline, you're likely be making a lot of defensive checks.

Your statistics are off. You forget to factor in that the extra +1 bonus given by Combat Casting only makes a difference 5% of the time (because the other 95% of the time, you would either have passed the roll anyway, or have failed it anyway).

Besides, if you can cast defensively, you can often take a five-foot-step out of reach and then cast. More important are the situations where an enemy readies an action to shoot you if you attempt to cast anything - and Combat Casting doesn't help there.

[Keld Denar]

Yeah, as a cha based gish, try something more like:
pal2/sorc4/spellsword1/ac5/sacredex4/ek4 or sacredex4 more.

The former keeps from losing an extra BAB at the cost of a spell level, the later loses a point of BAB but retains the CL. The first finishes with Sorc17 and 17 BAB, the 2nd finishes with Sorc18 for 9th level spells, but a BAB of 16. Both are pretty good. Sacred Exorcist gets you Turn Undead, which gets you access to Divine Might, which is a non-action to spend a turn to gain your cha to your damage for all attacks in a round. This is very nice suplimental damage for a gish, can be combined with Arcane Strike for even more burst damage.

Also, definitely go with Mithril Armor. Mithril Chain Shirt has an ASF of 10%. Spellsword 1 allows you to ignore 10% of your total ASF, which means you don't have any ASF. If you want heaver armor, you can stack Twilight (DMGII, -10%) on mithril(-10%) and Githcraft (-5%) for a net of -35% ASF. Alternately, you could grab more levels of spellsword to reduce ASF, but then you lose caster levels, which is hardly worth it.

[warmachine]

Your statistics are off. You forget to factor in that the extra +1 bonus given by Combat Casting only makes a difference 5% of the time (because the other 95% of the time, you would either have passed the roll anyway, or have failed it anyway).

Besides, if you can cast defensively, you can often take a five-foot-step out of reach and then cast. More important are the situations where an enemy readies an action to shoot you if you attempt to cast anything - and Combat Casting doesn't help there.

The first paragraph doesn't make sense. Use of Combat Casting instead of Skill Focus, indeed, only helps 5% of the time in defensive casting but only hurts you 15% of the time in other checks. If the weighting of defensive casting to others is more than 3, the expected benefit outweighs the expected penalty and it's golden.

As for the second, my advice to the OP is to consider who you're likely to be up against. The 5ft step is good but not against 10ft reach. Good against Medium size, bad against Large size or spiked chain cheese. Arcane casters shouldn't be in the frontline, mostly worry about timed shots and Skill Focus is better. Clerics, Paladins and gishes, which appears to be you, are in the frontline, can't step away from the spell target they need to touch, need to worry about AoO much more and Combat Casting is better.

[Kurald Galain]

Clerics, Paladins and gishes, which appears to be you, are in the frontline, can't step away from the spell target they need to touch, need to worry about AoO much more and Combat Casting is better.

Nice non sequitur there.

Clerics, Paladins and gishes, which appears to be you, are in the frontline, can't step away from the spell target they need to touch, need to worry about AoO much more and Skill Focus is better.

Clerics, Paladins and gishes, which appears to be you, are in the frontline, can't step away from the spell target they need to touch, need to worry about AoO much more and Dragons have a good will save.

Clerics, Paladins and gishes, which appears to be you, are in the frontline, can't step away from the spell target they need to touch, need to worry about AoO much more and Strawberries are delicious.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Combat Casting is indeed required for AbChamp, which is a very good 'gish' PrC.

I think, if you're going for resists/AC type Gishmonkey, may I suggest:

Pal2/Sorc4/Spellsword1(Complete Warrior)/Abjurant Champion5/???8?

Eldrich Knight makes you loose 9th level spells, you're wanting something with full spellcasting. Sacred Exorcist is okay... I guess... at least it's full spellcasting, although the 3/4 BAB means you loose 2 BAB you could have had with full BAB progression.

If you're going to grab a class that makes you loose 9th level spells, make it worth it. Something like War Weaver (Heroes of Battle) so you can at least buff your allies decently.

[LoneGamer]

Use Knight Phantom instead of Eldritch Knight. Prereqs are a little stiffer, but it's better in every way.

Also, Mage Armour spells do benefit from Abjurant Champion. They're not Extended for free, but they still grant an Armour bonus to AC. Abjurant Champion enhances the AC bonus provided by any spell providing an Armour or Shield bonus to AC.

Also, Protection from Alignment provides a Deflection bonus to AC so it won't be improved.

[ColdBrew]

Nice non sequitur there.

I think what he meant was that because those characters are often threatened while casting, they will cast defensively much more often than they will be interrupted while casting, therefore Combat Casting is a better feat choice for them.

Also, Mage Armour spells do benefit from Abjurant Champion. They're not Extended for free, but they still grant an Armour bonus to AC. Abjurant Champion enhances the AC bonus provided by any spell providing an Armour or Shield bonus to AC.

Nope, only abjuration spells. Read the ability again. The first line is:

Any time you cast an abjuration spell...

[Person_Man]

They're both horrible ideas.

First, Con should be the second highest stat of any caster (mostly for the hit points, but also for the Fort Save and Concentration checks). Second, avoid close combat - there are a million battlefield control spells out there. If threatened, take a 5 ft step back. If you're still threatened, just make the Concentration check. By level 8ish, you should be able to pass it automatically.

If you want to be a Paladin gish, just be a strait Paladin and take the Sword of the Arcane Order feat (Champions of Valor). It allows Paladins or Rangers to memorize Wizard/Sorcerer spells using their Paladin or Ranger spell slots. Then take Battle Blessing (Complete Champion) which lets you cast your Paladin spells faster (Full round becomes standard, standard becomes Swift). All the fun of being a gish, none of the mess of low BAB, multi-classing, or wasting feats on things like Combat Casting.

[John Campbell]

Also, Mage Armour spells do benefit from Abjurant Champion. They're not Extended for free, but they still grant an Armour bonus to AC. Abjurant Champion enhances the AC bonus provided by any spell providing an Armour or Shield bonus to AC.

No; Abjurant Armor increases AC bonus only from Abjurations that provide an armor or shield bonus to AC.

So mage armor, no... armor bonus, but Conjuration. Shield, yes... shield bonus, Abjuration. Protection from evil, no... Abjuration, but deflection bonus.

[Maerok]

I'm also looking at Swiftblade, which I'll probably choose in the end. I have until Wednesday.

[Squash Monster]

Use Knight Phantom instead of Eldritch Knight. Prereqs are a little stiffer, but it's better in every way.

That's not true. They're about even: EK puts you ahead 2 feats (one for not needing to take Still Spell, one at first level) while Knight Phantom gives you some odd benefits. Since the best gish build already has a way of getting around arcane spell failure and only room for 8 levels of either, you're looking at extra castings of Phantom Steed, 8 rounds per day of ignoring difficult terrain, and 8 rounds per day of Blur, vs 2 feats. Personally, I'd take the feats.

Shneeky's suggested build (Pal2/Sorc4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/? 8) is the iconic build for a sorcadin. Take Knight Phantom or Eldritch Knight for the last 8.


If you want to play a swiftblade, just take bard 7 or sorcerer 6 then all of swiftblade and finish with Abjurant Champion. Swiftblades make one of the more interesting gishes.

[graystone]

H: Improved Initiative
1: Combat Casting
3: Battle Caster (Medium)
6: Somatic Weaponry
9: Battle Caster (Heavy)
12: Improved Toughness

Battle caster isn't listed as a feat you can take more than once and even if you could as others have said just buy mithral armor.

[ColdBrew]

No; Abjurant Armor increases AC bonus only from Abjurations that provide an armor or shield bonus to AC.

So mage armor, no... armor bonus, but Conjuration. Shield, yes... shield bonus, Abjuration. Protection from evil, no... Abjuration, but deflection bonus.

The errata modifies the mention of mage armor to clarify that while it doesn't recieve the AC boost, it's still useful.

[Maerok]

If you want to play a swiftblade, just take bard 7 or sorcerer 6 then all of swiftblade and finish with Abjurant Champion. Swiftblades make one of the more interesting gishes.

Is Stalwart Sorcerer recommendable for this?

Stalwart Sorceror 6/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion 4
H: Expeditious Dodge (still qualifies) *
1: Mobility *
3: Extend Spell
6: Arcane Thesis (Haste)
9: Arcane Strike
12: Improved Initiative
15: Combat Casting *
18: Quicken Spell

*=prerequisite

[Keld Denar]

Stalwart Sorc (and Battle Sorc) are almost NEVER a good idea. The loss of the extra spellcasting is killer. You need those spells known to fulfil your role. Do NOT give them up, even for any amount of armor or hp.

[Squash Monster]

Since you're only getting 6 levels of sorcerer, Stalwart gives you 12 hitpoints at the cost of one spell known at highest level. Yeah, it's not worth it.

If you're worried about your HP, increase it through spells. Get Bear's Endurance and trade it out once you can afford a +4 con item. Also make sure you pick up Vampiric Touch: you can use it to boost your HP while hurting an opponent, but that's not its main use. Use it on something defenseless when you start your dungeon dive, and use it instead of coup de gras on opponents. You gain temporary HP equal to the damage you do, which can be more than it takes your opponent to die.

[Maerok]

Hmm. Well I need to get a weapon proficiency somehow. I'm looking at going Gray Elf and being a Wizard/Swiftblade instead. But it gets less spells per day and has to prepare them. I'm kind of torn between it all. And then I'd be fighting with Dex, which would require Weapon Finesse.

EDIT: Looked around a bit on Wizards forums and I like this particular build using Wizard/Swiftblade which uses most of my already chosen feats.

Spoiler

Show

Gray Elf Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9-10/Abjurant Champ 4-5

Int > Dex > Str > Con > Wis > Cha

1: Dodge
3: Mobility
5: Extend Spell
6: Practiced Spellcaster
9: Arcane Strike
12: Power Attack
15: Combat Casting
18: Quicken Spell

[Squash Monster]

If you still want to be a sorcerer consider being a Wood Elf. The Con penalty hurts, the int penalty doesn't matter, and the strength and dex bonuses are great. And, of course, you get a weapon proficiency.

Also: check the second half of my previous post: I think the edit didn't go through until after you posted.