Why are elves spellcasters?

[doliest]

I have a very simple question-why are elves supposed to be so good at magic? They get a dex bonus & a con deduction, that means they have on average a below base concentration score, and the dex bonus hints at a thief-based class like...rogue. They don't have any real magic stuff aside from a sleep immunity, which isn't all that major. So can anyone tell me if they ever said why elfs are some kind of super mages?(supposedly)

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Short answer:WotC is full of idiots.
Long answer:Wotc doesn't understand how their own crunch works because WotC is a bunch of idiots.

[Starbuck_II]

I have a very simple question-why are elves supposed to be so good at magic? They get a dex bonus & a con deduction, that means they have on average a below base concentration score, and the dex bonus hints at a thief-based class like...rogue. They don't have any real magic stuff aside from a sleep immunity, which isn't all that major. So can anyone tell me if they ever said why elfs are some kind of super mages?(supposedly)

Acfually, that isn't right.

Favored Classes are not what you are best at. unlwess Humans are the bestest at everything (and yes, bestest isn't a word)

Favored class= I can multiclass and still remember how to do my old thing without issue.

See, when one multiclasses theiretically you sre splitting your attention. Thus, a Wizard 1/Fighter 3 Halfing can't remember how to maintain his magic good enough so he takes exp penalty.

But the same class, but a Dwarf or elf has a no issue.


Favored classes are classes you can muticlass out of or into and forget about them while pursuing other things. That is why they never give you Exp penalty due to level difference between classes.

[The Rose Dragon]

Basically, it all comes down to this. Elves have long, long, long lives. During which they can study a lot of magic. Then again, that's the reason why they are good at everything (e.g. Thief - he steals things that are nailed down, things that don't exist, and things from the future).

But also, elves can't be good at anything, because a race that on average has a Constitution penalty will probably die quicker than everybody else. Despite their long life spans.

So, yes, WotC are a bunch of idiots.

[PaladinFreak]

IMO, mainly because Tolkein's Elves were very magical creatures, and no one has seen any reason to change that.

To address the crunch part of it, while Elves have poorer Concentration checks and fewer hit points, they are harder to hit, and have a better attack bonus on rays, orbs, and the like.

In the end, it is simply a matter of opinion.

And Sstoopidtallkid, I don't think that WotC are idiots. Even if they are, this is not the example you would hold up to show it.

[Human Paragon 3]

The idea that elves make great wizards was actually embedded in the fluff of 2nd edition. I think it has something to do with how mystical and fey-like they are. Honestly, elves have a bit of an identity crisis in D&D that is thankfully being resolved in 4th edition. Now, elves have been split into 2 races:

1: The Elves. They are what you would call woodsy elves. Like their counterpart, the Eladrin, they originate from the feywild, but they chose to come to the prime because they love the forest so darn much. They make great rangers and, interestingly, clerics because they get a wis bonus now I think.

2: The Eledarin. These are the elves that stayed in the feywild. They are mysterious masters of the arcane, and even get to teleport once per encounter. Spiffy.

EDIT: Ninja'd! Yes, Tolkein set the bar high with his elves.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Because that's the fluff. Elves / fey are innately magical in various mythologies, Tolkien's elves were magically talented (of course, the magic of Middle Earth tended to be pretty subtle), and it kinda stuck.

Don't ask why they get a Constitution penalty, considering the elves of Middle Earth were just as strong and hardy as any high man (or more so, even), and definitely stronger and tougher than common men. (Of course, Middle Earth elves would have serious Level Adjustment in D&D.)

[SilverClawShift]

I have a very simple question-why are elves supposed to be so good at magic? They get a dex bonus & a con deduction, that means they have on average a below base concentration score, and the dex bonus hints at a thief-based class like...rogue. They don't have any real magic stuff aside from a sleep immunity, which isn't all that major. So can anyone tell me if they ever said why elfs are some kind of super mages?(supposedly)

- Elves have DEX bonuses because they have naturally lithe, agile builds. They have CON penalties because that agile body type is naturally less durable.
- Elves are traditionally considered mages because elven culture idealizes arcane magical might above other things. Elves are inclined by their society towards becoming spellcasters, because elven civilization looks up to spellcasters the way modern civilization looks up to doctors (i.e. "he be really smart").

Those two statements are not mutually exclusive. They're both true at the same time. I really doubt anyone at WOTC honestly forgot which stats apply to spellcasting. Elves could have an INT penalty and a STR bonus, but if elven children grow up seeing that being a Wizard is the best thing they can do with their life, you're gonna get a lot of elven wizards.

The better question is, why don't racial selections have two sets of abilities: Inborn, and Cultural?

A dwarf raised by humans probably isn't going to grow up running anti-giant military drills, and probably shouldn't get the AC bonus against them. They'd still have darkvision though, for example.

[Frosty]

Elves are supposed to be masters at wizardry and magic...but you know what's funny? Your average elf studies DECADES upon DECADES before maturing and going out into the world as a 1st level adventurer. So, at the taven (aptly-named Broken Record), 4 fledging adventurers meet up. Two are wizards. The elf is about 100 years old and has mastered the arcane arts of magic missile. The human wizard is 20 and has mastered the same thing.

Now who is smarter and more in tune with magic?

[Starsinger]

Elves are good with magic because it's a throw back from the old days when elves were gishes in a can. Likewise, a Dwarf's favorite class is fighter because older edition dwarves were fighters with slight differences. As for hobbits/halflings and rogues.

[WalkingTarget]

EDIT: Ninja'd! Yes, Tolkein set the bar high with his elves.

Despite the fact that the man admitted that he regretted using the words "elf" and "dwarf" to refer to new entities for his mythology that were largely unrelated to the beings previously associated with the words.

Not that there are many examples of spell-slingers (Elvish or otherwise, besides the "gods") in Tolkien. Just about anything the Elves make seems somewhat magical due to their skill in crafts, but there were only 5 wizards in Tolkien's writings and none of them were Elves (or humans, or dwarves).

I think the way that D&D sees it as Elves = magical race = wizard (as the original magic-user class). The crunch of the stat distribution doesn't reflect what would make them most optimal, but the idea that they are more inherently magical is hard to ignore.

[Collin152]

Despite the fact that the man admitted that he regretted using the words "elf" and "dwarf" to refer to new entities for his mythology that were largely unrelated to the beings previously associated with the words.

Not that there are many examples of spell-slingers (Elvish or otherwise, besides the "gods") in Tolkien. Just about anything the Elves make seems somewhat magical due to their skill in crafts, but there were only 5 wizards in Tolkien's writings and none of them were Elves (or humans, or dwarves).

I think the way that D&D sees it as Elves = magical race = wizard (as the original magic-user class). The crunch of the stat distribution doesn't reflect what would make them most optimal, but the idea that they are more inherently magical is hard to ignore.

Wouldn't "inhernatly magical" push towards sorcerer?

[GoC]

Despite the fact that the man admitted that he regretted using the words "elf" and "dwarf" to refer to new entities for his mythology that were largely unrelated to the beings previously associated with the words.

Not that there are many examples of spell-slingers (Elvish or otherwise, besides the "gods") in Tolkien. Just about anything the Elves make seems somewhat magical due to their skill in crafts, but there were only 5 wizards in Tolkien's writings and none of them were Elves (or humans, or dwarves).

I think the way that D&D sees it as Elves = magical race = wizard (as the original magic-user class). The crunch of the stat distribution doesn't reflect what would make them most optimal, but the idea that they are more inherently magical is hard to ignore.

I've always found it strange how the only creatures killed by a spell in Tolkine's writings are some unnamed goblins in The Hobbit.

[LynGrey]

typically its the 4 hours of trance over 8 hours of sleep. Also the weapon familarties they get make it easier to do some decent damage.

When you look at their basic increases Dex +2 gives them chances at a better AC since no armor. Also Con -2 is only a HP a level and 1 point off of the concentration skill. Nothing to hoot and hollar about really, despite i like high con wizards. But the idea traditionally is not to get hit and not soak it up.

Fluff wise elves live for ever, giving htem time to study all the want about magic. That and they need something to do withi all that spare time.

[Xuincherguixe]

Elves are supposed to be masters at wizardry and magic...but you know what's funny? Your average elf studies DECADES upon DECADES before maturing and going out into the world as a 1st level adventurer. So, at the taven (aptly-named Broken Record), 4 fledging adventurers meet up. Two are wizards. The elf is about 100 years old and has mastered the arcane arts of magic missile. The human wizard is 20 and has mastered the same thing.

Now who is smarter and more in tune with magic?

The problem is that elf society is being strangled by all the red tape. Oh sure, many of them call it ancient tradition, but it all serves little purpose. Does every book really need to be blessed twenty times, and taped to the back of a unicorn, and chased every day for a week before a page can be read? I would say no, but those damn elders could explain why this is "necessary" with an hour long rebuttal. Which they tend to do given the slightest hint that the would be elven wizard is not particularly happy about the questionable rituals, which of course wastes even more time that he could spend chasing unicorns with spell books attached to them.

Human wizardry is also pretty bad, but they only spend about half the time doing questionable rituals, most of which are arguably useful. It turns out that the wizardry academies tend to pack on lots of fluff courses. The Statistics Course is probably of some use, but there's nothing in the third year Calculus that's even remotely applicable. What's worse is that it has about 15 prerequisites. What they need to do is have more practical courses, such as "Basic Batman Wizardry", or "Economics: Why not to use creation to make yourself rich".

Of the two, the Human Wizard is most likely to be able to react to change.

Your best bet is likely the Goblin wizard. They have a much more real world approach to spell casting. No one will take goblin education seriously, but none of them have bothered paying attention to it either. Then they might have to admit that their students are just wasting their money.

You might not get hired by the king, but you'll have a much larger skill set which you can use to serve yourself. Who wants to work for that stuffy old monarch when you can take over the kingdom yourself? Or just lock yourself up in a tower and focus on things beyond such trivial matters as worldly ones.

[Chronicled]

typically its the 4 hours of trance over 8 hours of sleep. Also the weapon familarties they get make it easier to do some decent damage.

You're making a case for elf rogues, not elf casters.

1) They still need 8 hours "rest" to recover spells, even if only 4 of it is spent trancing.

2) Why is a primary arcane caster using a weapon? Something is very wrong if that's the case.

[Collin152]

typically its the 4 hours of trance over 8 hours of sleep. Also the weapon familarties they get make it easier to do some decent damage.

When you look at their basic increases Dex +2 gives them chances at a better AC since no armor. Also Con -2 is only a HP a level and 1 point off of the concentration skill. Nothing to hoot and hollar about really, despite i like high con wizards. But the idea traditionally is not to get hit and not soak it up.

Fluff wise elves live for ever, giving htem time to study all the want about magic. That and they need something to do withi all that spare time.

They still need eight hours of total rest, so it isn't much of an advantage.
or any, really.
And what wizard uses weapons to the point that what weapon they're using matters?
And technically, elves don't live forever, just a really long time. Elans, on the other hand...

[AmberVael]

I've always found it strange how the only creatures killed by a spell in Tolkine's writings are some unnamed goblins in The Hobbit.

And I've always found it strange how DnD magic is so flashy and irritatingly common and easy- DnD magic and Tolkien's magic are highly different in terms of use and level of power.
Frankly, the easiest way to stat out Gandalf, in my opinion, would be to make a Factotum.
Seriously- think of how much magic he did, then think of ALL the things he did. Rode horses, persuaded irritable people, cast a few spells, knew all kinds of things, fought with swords, forged alliances...
Doesn't that sound more like Factotum than Wizard?

[Tokiko Mima]

[CHEEZE]

Elves make great Wizards because they have so many racial weapon proficiency Feats. No really, I'm being serious.

All they need to do is get 8th level Wizard spells and Embrace the Dark Chaos, then Shun the Dark Chaos, and all of those Feats become useable for metamagic, item creation, or whatever needs a high level Wizard might have. Silly humans and their one free bonus Feat at first level!

[/CHEEZE]

[Starbuck_II]

And I've always found it strange how DnD magic is so flashy and irritatingly common and easy- DnD magic and Tolkien's magic are highly different in terms of use and level of power.
Frankly, the easiest way to stat out Gandalf, in my opinion, would be to make a Factotum.
Seriously- think of how much magic he did, then think of ALL the things he did. Rode horses, persuaded irritable people, cast a few spells, knew all kinds of things, fought with swords, forged alliances...
Doesn't that sound more like Factotum than Wizard?

Still I think a Solar could do everything Gandalf did. Especially with cross ranks.

[Kurald Galain]

typically its the 4 hours of trance over 8 hours of sleep.

Yeah, I wonder who made that up? I'm quite sure that Tolkien elves sleep.

Fluff wise elves live for ever, giving htem time to study all the want about magic. That and they need something to do withi all that spare time.

Well, yes, but because of the same reason they need something artificial (like 2E's level adjustment, or most settings' lack of fertility) to keep them from simply overrunning the humans. Ironically, in all D&D editions so far, humans make better spellcasters than elves do.

Seriously- think of how much magic he did, then think of ALL the things he did. Rode horses, persuaded irritable people, cast a few spells, knew all kinds of things, fought with swords, forged alliances...
Doesn't that sound more like Factotum than Wizard?

No. That sounds like a wizard, still, one who has a good intelligence and charisma, and a bunch of skills. D&D is the only system where wizards are, for some obscure reason, forbidden from using swords, or learning to ride a horse.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Yeah, I wonder who made that up? I'm quite sure that Tolkien elves sleep.

Curiously enough, they also only trance a few hours a night in MERP and Rolemaster; I don't know what the source for that is in Tolkien's works, though, if there is any.


As for the differences in magic... D&D lacks a pretty crucial element of magic found in most settings: The Terrible Price. (Tolkien got it from mythology, and it's even more prevalent in the books of fantasy authors "descended" from Lovecraft, like Robert E. Howard, Fritz Leiber, and Michael Moorcock - who were stylistically much closer to D&D otherwise.)

Magic in D&D is essentially free. There are game systems that model the cost of magic, and you don't want to use magic willy-nilly in them. (Like Call of Cthulhu, either BRP or d20. Ability drain when there is absolutely nothing that returns drained ability scores? Gulp. Conan d20 has the risk of Corruption.)

[AslanCross]

Yeah, I wonder who made that up? I'm quite sure that Tolkien elves sleep.

No, they don't need to have bed rest. There was a chapter in LOTR (forgot where exactly, I think it was TTT) where Gimli was wondering why Legolas wasn't tiring. Aragorn said something along the lines of elves being able to dream while they were still technically awake, and so were able to rest without needing to stop.

[Gorbash]

Ok, dexterity bonus aside from being an obvious rogue advantage, they have the following:
- Proficiency with longswords, longbows and shortbows
- +2 bonus on listen, search and spot
- ability to sense secret doors
- low light vision

So EVERYTHING they have indicates that they should be a dungeon-crawling class, yet for some reason they're described as great wizards...

[Tsotha-lanti]

No, they don't need to have bed rest. There was a chapter in LOTR (forgot where exactly, I think it was TTT) where Gimli was wondering why Legolas wasn't tiring. Aragorn said something along the lines of elves being able to dream while they were still technically awake, and so were able to rest without needing to stop.

I think that's during the chase after the orcs, after the Fellowship's broken and the hobbits are taken? That's the bit I always think of in this context. (It's also the part where Aragorn basically "uses a spell" to track the orcs, innit?)

[AmberVael]

No. That sounds like a wizard, still, one who has a good intelligence and charisma, and a bunch of skills. D&D is the only system where wizards are, for some obscure reason, forbidden from using swords, or learning to ride a horse.

I state that, in DnD, the easiest way to stat Gandalf is as a Factotum, because it reflects his lesser use of spells, and his higher use of pure knowledge and skills.
You say that DnD wizards don't reflect that, but that you should stat Gandalf as a wizard in DnD because any OTHER system WOULD have their wizard class/rules be like that.
...

Honestly, I think we both agree, it's just that we're trying to achieve the same point at different angles.
You say Gandalf is a wizard- I agree, just not by DnD's definition. Within DnD, he would likely fit the Factotum class better than the Wizard class, but that doesn't mean he isn't a wizard, just that he's not using the wizard class.

[Chronos]

The really funny thing is that, in 3rd edition, dwarves and halflings mechanically make great wizards (certainly better than elves). Actually, they would have made great wizards in 2nd edition, too, except that the 2nd edition rules didn't allow dwarves or halflings to be wizards at all.

[Collin152]

The really funny thing is that, in 3rd edition, dwarves and halflings mechanically make great wizards (certainly better than elves). Actually, they would have made great wizards in 2nd edition, too, except that the 2nd edition rules didn't allow dwarves or halflings to be wizards at all.

Where do Gnomes factor into all this?

[DraPrime]

It's probably a cultural thing. They just seem to like magic more. I mean seriously, when a person chooses a profession they don't know the mechanics behind their race and world. They just know what seems interesting to them. Same goes with the elves.

[Indon]

Elves have a strong affinity and interest in magic... but they aren't extra-intelligent or charismatic over humans. They are slight of build and graceful, which explains the stat modifiers.

Elves were made as a creative venture (and a relic of earlier versions) and the stats describe them - they weren't made with any mechanical objective in mind, and no, Wizards is not stupid for making an aspect of an RPG without an explicit mechanical objective.