[News] Paizo Announces Pathfinder RPG

[Matthew]

It looks like Paizo may be looking to avoid D20 2e and tap into the disaffected D20 1.5e market with D20 1.75e; check it out: Path Finder RPG

For those not up with the lingo, in plain speech it looks like Paizo are going to continue supporting a spruced up D&D 3.5e.

[Crow]

I wonder if this means Paizo wasn't too impressed with 4.0?

edit: Also, the more releases I see from Paizo, the more astonished I am at how well they communicate with their customers...

[Reel On, Love]

I wonder if this means Paizo wasn't too impressed with 4.0?

Because when WotC does something, it's 100% about the money, but when other companies do something...

This means that Paizo saw an opportunity to fill a market niche that WotC is leaving. The niche is shrinking, but there's still gonna be people there.

(How would Paizo have even seen 4E?)

[Crow]

Because when WotC does something, it's 100% about the money, but when other companies do something...

Dude, what? How is that relevant to my post?

This means that Paizo saw an opportunity to fill a market niche that WotC is leaving. The niche is shrinking, but there's still gonna be people there.

They have to believe in it enough to invest resources into the project. If they didn't think that 3.5 was at least comparable to 4e I don't think they would have made this decision. Yes, they are filling a niche market (Paizo is a business, so it is about the money for them too!), and there is nothing wrong with that. It would be a niche market even if 4e came out and sucked. Most people are going to play 4e anyways, and that number is going to grow as time goes by.

Whether 4e is the holy grail of gaming or if it flat-out sucks, I can see how they could (having seen both systems) have decided that their Pathfinder series was better suited to 3.5. Different systems often cater to different styles.

(How would Paizo have even seen 4E?)

The first phase of the 4th Edition developer materials release will be marked by the January 2008 availability of the OGL Designer’s Kit. This kit is designed for independent publishers looking to obtain early access to 4th Edition rules in order to develop compatible products to release just after the 4th Edition launch. These publishers will pay a one-time fee of $5,000.00 USD for access to the OGL Designer’s Kit, which includes first looks at the 4th Edition rulebooks, the SRD, final galleys and more.

The OGL Designer’s kit includes:

Pre-publication versions of the 4th Edition rulebooks:
4th Edition Player’s Handbook
4th Edition Dungeon Master’s Guide
4th Edition Monster Manual
Pre-publication version of the System Reference Document (SRD)
Open Gaming License (OGL)
License Guide
FAQ
Registration Card
Updated documents as the rules are finessed and finalized
Final galleys including typeset text and artwork
Advanced copies of the finished core rulebooks
Developers purchasing the OGL Designer’s Kit will receive updated pre-publication versions of the 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons core rules through the time of launch. They will also receive the right to publish OGL products on August 1, 2008, five months earlier than the general public.

Parties interested in the OGL Designer’s Kit must possess a business license and execute a Non-Disclosure Agreement prior to contract communications.

[Renegade Paladin]

HALLELUJAH, PRAISE THE LORD!

Sorry, just had to let it out. But seriously, YES! Saves me the trouble of trying to do this open-source.

[Bhu]

Lo I am a happy kitteh...

[Titanium Dragon]

Actually, Paizo still hasn't gotten the 4e stuff. That page? It is a lie. WotC said it'd put it out in January, and it is mid-March and last I heard the 3rd party companies still didn't have it. Some may have finally gotten it now, but...

I think this is because Paizo got it so late. They had nothing else to do so did this. It won't succeed; if you look at their august 2009 release it costs $50 for their new PHB. The odds of people buying that over the $35, completely fixed and probably infinitely better 4th edition PHB (or even some other game, such as GURPS or WoD) is pretty close to zero.

I doubt they'll really try to keep it up; it doesn't seem like it is viable to spend the manhours on trying to keep up 3.5, as the system is fundamentally broken and they'd have to do an enormous amount of patch work to come even close to fixing itm and a lot of the people who stick around aren't interested in buying a new edition of it - part of the reason they aren't going for fourth is because it will cost money. And that is all this is, a patch, and something I could do as well at - if I were inclined to ever run another 3.5 campaign, which I am not.

If you don't think 3.5 is broken, then why buy a $50 patch? If you do think it is broken, why not buy into a different, cheaper system?

Ultimately this seems doomed to failure from the start, and I have to wonder if this is just them trying to eke out a bit of money rather than twiddling their thumbs while waiting for 4e - they don't really have enough time at the moment to come up with a good product for launch, so they're instead putting out something for the previous system and perhaps making a bit of nerd rage profit and getting their name more out there.

[Mojo_Rat]

I dont think anything postive or negative has to be read into it. It sounds like there is enough interest in people staying with the current d20 rules to make it worth it.

Chances are There is probably enough interest in their pathfinder products to suggest a full rpg around pathfinder Is worth it. Which seems to make sense. It could be a good business plan Or it could fail horribly I guess we'll see.

[Ascension]

If you don't think 3.5 is broken, then why buy a $50 patch? If you do think it is broken, why not buy into a different, cheaper system?

Because if you buy a $50 patch the patched rules will still be (according to them) fully backwards compatible with your hundreds of dollars of 3.5 stuff? Buying into an upgraded and backwards compatible version of the system you've got is always cheaper than buying into a completely new system (assuming the new and old systems are similarly priced). When you start thinking about all the supplements you could convert to be compatible with the Pathfinder rules, it's easy to see how it would be both more appealing and more cost effective than migrating to 4E or GURPS or nWoD where they'd have to buy a whole new system's worth of books instead of a simple fix for the system they've got.

And not everyone is as convinced as you that 4E will be "completely fixed and probably infinitely better."

[Titanium Dragon]

Because if you buy a $50 patch the patched rules will still be (according to them) fully backwards compatible with your hundreds of dollars of 3.5 stuff? Buying into an upgraded and backwards compatible version of the system you've got is always cheaper than buying into a completely new system (assuming the new and old systems are similarly priced). When you start thinking about all the supplements you could convert to be compatible with the Pathfinder rules, it's easy to see how it would be both more appealing and more cost effective than migrating to 4E or GURPS or nWoD where they'd have to buy a whole new system's worth of books instead of a simple fix for the system they've got.

And not everyone is as convinced as you that 4E will be "completely fixed and probably infinitely better."

Here's the thing: if it is fixed, it won't be 100% backwards compatible. There are things in books outside of core which it cannot touch. Not ALL the broken stuff is OGL, after all. And I severely doubt it will be fixed better than I do with an axe - my "cutting classes to achieve balance" thread is probably going to result in a more balanced game than trying to patch the extant classes, many of which aren't OGL and thus can't be patched effectively.

And is anyone going to pay $50 for it? I could pay $35 for 4th edition, which will be better than 3.5 in terms of balance and coherency, or I could pay for GURPS or WoD or even get Exalted for free by turning in my 3.5 PHB.

A lot of the people who are sticking with 3.5 are not people who understand that it is broken, or why or how it is broken, and there's no way they're going to pay that much for a patch. Some nerd rage may buy $25 beta books, but the 50 dollar new PHB is, I think, not going to happen even with nerd rage.

Frankly, the issue is thus: How many people are fed up with 3.5, but won't buy 4e, and will instead buy a product they mostly already own which costs more money than 4e does? I think the answer to that is "not very many". And that then leads into "Well, no one will play it", which means that even fewer people will buy it.

I can see people switching to other gaming systems, but not buying this, and I doubt Paizo believes otherwise. But if they can get some nerd rage to buy $25 beta books, that may tide them over until they've got the time to build their own useful system or mooch off WotC again and produce 4e products, and perhaps get their name out a bit more thanks to folks like you.

[Matthew]

Well, one reason Paizo might consider this a good and long term idea is because it means they won't have to rely on Wizards in the future or be at the mercy of any future edition changes. It's basically an inhouse system capitalising on the fledgling Pathfinder brand. If it works out, great; if it doesn't, then things didn't pan out. I don't think it's reasonable to ascribe any underhanded motives to Paizo just at this time.

[Ascension]

I could pay $35 for 4th edition, which will be better than 3.5 in terms of balance and coherency...

Again, this is an assumption. Despite the previews et al, we still don't really know what 4E is going to be like.

And sure, Paizo can't legally touch what isn't OGL, but their core fixes could serve as a model for further repairs to the system. A lot of the non-core material is clearly modeled on stuff from core... it shouldn't be too hard to extrapolate.

Look, I myself am not planning to buy this, at least not at the moment, but I fully understand why one might do so.

[Kurald Galain]

It is a clever move on Paizo's part.

Players will continue to play 3.0 and 3.5 for decades. I base this statement on the fact that people still play first edition D&D, and there are a lot more 3E players now than there were 1E players when 1E was in print. So yes, there's a market here.

If you are new to RPGs and your first group happens to play 3E, then the 3E rulebooks will turn out to be out of print. If you want a rulebook, you can try eBay, or you can get Paizo's new book. It's a nice, but it's a profitable one. Since WOTC is deliberately cutting compatibility and support in order to promote a wholly different game, it is not surprising that another company would pick up compatibility and support.

[leperkhaun]

also remember that WOTC did not provide Paizo with 4E info so they could have stuff ready with the release of 4E. Last i heard they still havent gotten anything from WOTC.

the....cant remember head editor or some such made a post about what direction paizo will go and how dissapointed they were in WOTC's efforts to help out 3rd parties.

[Zincorium]

I suppose I've got a bit of a different perspective on it.

Paizo is doing something smart by releasing an alternate to fourth edition, but I don't think that they're going to burn the bridge and never release a single product for the new system.

The fact is, it's flatly impossible to accurately discern what people will buy until those people have played enough of fourth edition to vocalize their main complaints. That won't happen for at least four to five months after the initial sales. After that, publishers can address the problems in the new system as opposed to just throwing something out and hoping that it's what people want.

WotC has a strong habit of not changing core items once an edition is finalized, see the complete lack of change with sorcerers with 3.5, even though there was a clear message among the fans that sorcerers were getting a bum deal. That's where the real market seems to be, in providing a better, fully-researched alternative where the problems can be fixed outright rather than patched. It's a market the big dog in the scene, wotc, almost never provides products for.

This is exactly what Paizo is doing now, and I think the reason they're releasing it as a new update to 3.5 is that they're no longer directly competing with WotC and have free reign to walk that territory. They or another company will probably do the same with 4th ed in a few years, summing up all the minor and major updates they've thought up into a single product.

[Crow]

I don't think that they're going to burn the bridge and never release a single product for the new system.

The release actually states that they will be creating content for 4e. Or at least I think it does...I read it 12 hours ago. So yes, you're correct.

[CASTLEMIKE]

I liked what they did with the classes (particularly the fighter and the wizard) in the free 66 page PF RPG Alpha. IMO worth opening up an account just to check it out. Paizo should end up with a nice niche.

[Renegade Paladin]

The alpha release document looks solid to me. I'm definitely getting in on this test; I like to flatter myself into thinking that my efforts to revise 3.5 myself gave me some insight into what needs to be done.

[Kurald Galain]

I concur that what they've done so far looks good. The skill system is definitely improved, there are some interesting added feats, and the classes are streamlined. They seem intent on fixing the flaws of 3E, which can only be a good thing (if you ask half the internet about it )

For instance, their ruleset fixes diplomacy, and forgery, and provides extra options for the fighter. On the other hand, I must note that they haven't fixed UMD (even worse, all humans can now take it automatically!), nor the melee classes' mobility problem, nor the uber-ness of the high-level spells. But I assume they're working on that.

[Rasumichin]

I haven't read through all of the alpha 1 PDF yet, but agree that it looks promising.
I'm really looking forward to the two upcoming alpha releases and appreciate the idea that they'll relly strongly on feedback from playtesting fans (and that, in fact, the whole project is strongly inspired by what the community at large has to be found houserule-worthy in the last years).
I also like the layout and the artwork a lot better than the WoTC version.
I'll likely buy their PHB, which i also suppose to include vital parts from DMG, including revamped homebrew for the non-OGL parts.
Especially since i have not spent hundreds of $, er, € on 3.5 and now can look forward to tons of great material in the bargain bins of my FLGSs, which will easily make up for the increased price of the Pathfinder PHB.


As far as the future of the project is concerned, i doubt that it will take a hold in the US market.
3.X does not hold any mentionable potential for new supplements anymore (from an economic standpoint, the main reason for developing 4E).
What could be written has already been published.

For those who are basically happy with 3.5, but would like some changes that go slightly beyond minor houseruling, Pathfinder RPG will be an interesting product, kind of like an ultimate 3X edition, but i don't believe that Paizo will be able to generate a lasting product line from that.

It's a book aimed at people who will not sink that much more money into D&D, which is absolutely detrimental to becoming the next third party cashcow.

[[Insert Neat Username Here]]

It won't succeed; if you look at their august 2009 release it costs $50 for their new PHB. The odds of people buying that over the $35, completely fixed and probably infinitely better 4th edition PHB (or even some other game, such as GURPS or WoD) is pretty close to zero.

1) But to get all of the 4e rules you have to buy 3 books; that costs $105. Pathfinder will be all in one book.

2) Completely fixed? Not really. More like "completely demolished and rebuilt from scratch for a new target audience."

3) "Probably infinitely better" is subjective.

4) What if they don't want some other game? Some people like the D20 system. The point is backward compatibility; an entirely new system would be even harder to convert to than 4e.

[Matthew]

I concur that what they've done so far looks good. The skill system is definitely improved, there are some interesting added feats, and the classes are streamlined. They seem intent on fixing the flaws of 3E, which can only be a good thing (if you ask half the internet about it )

For instance, their ruleset fixes diplomacy, and forgery, and provides extra options for the fighter. On the other hand, I must note that they haven't fixed UMD (even worse, all humans can now take it automatically!), nor the melee classes' mobility problem, nor the uber-ness of the high-level spells. But I assume they're working on that.

Yeah, some interesting skill changes. I like taht they have stolen my idea to roll Bluff and Sense Motive into Deception (from what I can tell). Well, alright, they probably didn't steal it directly off me, but still, I like it (though I admit there was a lot of hostility to the proposal at the time I suggested it). I just wish they could do something about Iterative Attacks and Saving Throws, but I guess that would mess with the backwards compatability thing.

[Person_Man]

I'll be trying 4th ed. But I think it's a great idea for Paizo to stick with 3.5 (or 3.75, or whatever).

Every time they come out with a new edition, some percentage of the gaming community sticks with the old edition. There's still people playing 1st ed out there. Since 4th ed is such a departure from 3.5, and since so much of it may end up being tied to the internet, the number of people who want to stick with 3.5 may be quite big. There are literally millions of people who play D&D out there. If only 10% of them decide convert to Paizo, they can make a killing, especially since their production and marketing costs are so much lower then Hasbro's.

[Corsec1337]

Paizo still had not received the 4.0 stuff at the time of dndxp. Wizards is holding out giving the 3rd party companies the 4.0 information due to the fact that they are going to try to earn big at GenCon. At dndxp the rules werent even set for the rpg. Stats were being changed mid day and there was an increasing of hit points going around for the npcs.

4.0 is due to come out this summer and wizards still havne't gotten there stuff together for 4.0. The Pathfinder series is quite good and I'm for one glad that Paizo is doing there own thing. The rules look nice and the classes look nice. There is very little conversation a the moment that needs to be done to make your games 3.75. People will buy into it due to the fact that people will still have there 3.x books and can still be used with the new system they will be using.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Hooray for the OGL and third-party publishers! (Especially Mongoose Publishing.) Many, many d20 games beat D&D itself hands down, anyway.

[Vendle]

$50.00? Where did you pull that number from? All I see is the beta book release at an estimated $24.99. So if you like 3.5 and like Paizo's pulp fantasy style, it's quite a bit cheaper than 3 new core books.

Edit: Holy cripes on toast, I'm a clone!

[[Insert Neat Username Here]]

$50.00? Where did you pull that number from? All I see is the beta book release at an estimated $24.99. So if you like 3.5 and like Paizo's pulp fantasy style, it's quite a bit cheaper than 3 new core books.

Edit: Holy cripes on toast, I'm a clone!

If you check their store, the final version is available for preorder at $50.

[Vendle]

Thank you. I hardly ever visit the store part of their site, I'm usually on the boards and have my favorite products on subscription.

I suppose if that price tag does put a person off, they could get the beta book at $25 just to see what it's worth. Paizo is also being very open about the new product, giving free downloads and asking for input from playtesters. If you can't tell, I'm rather in favor of this style of business.

[Scaboroth]

Has anyone actually tried putting any of these new rules into play? I'd be very curious to hear what other folks think of them "in the field" instead of just as a mental exercise to argue back and forth. I for one think that some of their rules are a little wonky (not so sure about skills yet) but the majority of them are pure gold (streamlining racial bonuses, giving you an actual reason to take levels in your favored class, giving fighters and rogues some whoop-ass capstone abilities, etc). If Paizo is so eager to get feedback from the fans to improve the new system, I can think of no better resource than the Playground.

[Tam_OConnor]

I do believe that I'm in love. Not so much with the automatic skill assignment, and even less with the feat chains, but other than that...but what they do to fix the monk: that will be the true test.