Incantantrix help for DM?

[Tyger]

I am running a game with 4 players, and its a pretty high powered game. They are level 11ish, and include a Tielfing Beguiler (no CHA penalty to Tieflings in my game), a Spellwarped Wizard, a Minotaur (Krynn style) druid with a tiger companion, and a Fire-Souled Catfolk Warmage / Fatespinner. So yeah, balance is not an issue really. :)

The Fire-souled Catfolk Warmage / Fatespinner (he thought he was being a munchkin when he took the character) dishes out a tonne of damage, when I let him. He's rapidly discovering that I like to put the PCs in situations where killing everything is the last resort, not the first. So blowing stuff up is not always an option for him. It has resulted in him seeing the tactical advantages of some of his spells and some great RP as well.

He has asked about taking the Incantatrix PrC as well. I looked it over, and it doesn't seem that bad to me, but I know that it is widely regarded as one of the nastiest PrCs for full casters out there. Its not a huge issue (see above) but I do want to make sure that I am prepared for the impact that it may have on the campaign.

So, what am I missing? What makes it so obscene?

[Kurald Galain]

As Logic Ninja says,

"Not one, not two, not three--four totally overpowered abilities: Metamagic Effect, Cooperative Metamagic, Metamagic Spell Trigger, and Practical Metamagic. And another fistful of non-broken but *good* abilities on top of that. Get an item that boosts your Spellcraft checks (make one yourself) and you're in wizard heaven."

Essentially, the problem is that the 'trix can use metamagic much, much cheaper than everybody else.

[Duke of URL]

See above, and add in that it gets full caster progression as well, and four metamagic bonus feats (two more than a Wizard would get over 10 levels).

Seriously, there is virtually no reason to NOT take the PrC, which immediately tells you that it's broken. The only "cost" for entry is one useless feat (but you get at least two extra feats over 10 levels for it), and having to drop one (additional) spell school.

[valadil]

The 3.0 version isn't quite so nasty, but still worthwhile. It nets you 3 metamagic feats, immunity to death effects, improved metamagic, and some ethereal stuff that rarely comes up. If you're looking for a slightly gimped version, try this one.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If you limit the player's access to Spellcraft-increasing items (and, of course, inform him of this), Incantatrix will still be a big power boost, but not enough of one for a Warmage/FS/Incantatrix to break that sort of game.

[Uncle Festy]

This may be the totally wrong place to put this, but while we're on the topic of overpowered PrCs, what exactly makes the Iot7V so cheesy?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

1: It gives you an incredible defense after seven levels, with few pre-requisites, and a lot of incremental benefits, and no drawbacks.

[Frosty]

But still not as a cheesy as Incantatrix?

[asphen fox]

I've been playing wizard characters since the first time I played D&D and I'm gonna have to say that Iot7V and Incantatar(rix) are at par when it comes to brokenness. Iot7V has a lot of pretty awesome "You'll never kill me abilities" while Incantatars(rixes) have awesome "My spells are stronger than yours and I can steal your spells to boot" abilities.


Of topic: Have you guys ever noticed that Batman's cheese combos seem to take out more spell slots than he wants to lose? If he's preparing for one encounter, he's broken but he's not. He needs to prepare for 3-5 encounters daily. I think that's enough to keep him from wrecking the game, ne?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Fox, batman's spell combos seem to be a response to somewhat ridiculous ambush scenarios that are generally only brought up in theory. In a normal, not-intended-to-cause-TPK enounter, he doesn't need to fire off a 100% guaranteed victory spell combo. His undead puppets are constantly mining for expensive diamonds for a reason, right?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

This may be the totally wrong place to put this, but while we're on the topic of overpowered PrCs, what exactly makes the Iot7V so cheesy?

Being able to drop the Violet part of a Prismatic Wall, as a reflexive action after he has been attacked but before that attack has been resolved, to make himself immune to said attack and force the attacker to make a save or be teleported to a random plane.

As far as Incantatrix... make Spellcraft check to not increase spell level when using Metamagic. So in my 4th level slots, I've got Empowered Twin Ray Enervations doing (2d4+2)*1.5 negative levels. Or how about ye old Maximised Time Stop to give you five rounds to set up winning combos? Anything you normally abuse Greater Metamagic Rods for, you can duplicate, an infinite number of times per day, with appropriate Spellcraft checks. And Skill Focus (Spellcraft) is a required feat for Archmage anyways.

[asphen fox]

Fox, batman's spell combos seem to be a response to somewhat ridiculous ambush scenarios that are generally only brought up in theory. In a normal, not-intended-to-cause-TPK enounter, he doesn't need to fire off a 100% guaranteed victory spell combo. His undead puppets are constantly mining for expensive diamonds for a reason, right?

So... as I see it.. Batman isn't really broken. He's only broken at the start of the day when his spell slots are unused and he has spells for everything. As for the undead part.... Undead armies are scary :))

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

So... as I see it.. Batman isn't really broken. He's only broken at the start of the day when his spell slots are unused and he has spells for everything. As for the undead part.... Undead armies are scary :))

Well, for one, to a certain extent, the wizard being able to contribute more in one round than other party members can in an encounter (which can last a round due to the wizard) makes him broken. If you don't buy that, the more paranoid batmen can generally enforce one encounter per day using MMM, along with other preparatory tricks.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

So... as I see it.. Batman isn't really broken. He's only broken at the start of the day when his spell slots are unused and he has spells for everything. As for the undead part.... Undead armies are scary :))

Um... No. Batman can solo 4 CR of his level encounters without using his highest level spells at almost any level after 7. Add in an actual Party and his highest level spells and he can take 8 encounters of his CR +2 a day.

And just to be clear, that's a crappy Party that consists of Healbot the Cleric/Smashy the Barbarian/Lockpicky the Elven Rogue who spends combat hiding until his enemies have been incapacitated.

[asphen fox]

Come to think of it... You're right. :)) I can't wait to see the day when a DM is stupid enough not to ban MMM and Mdisjunction

[MeklorIlavator]

Come to think of it... You're right. :)) I can't wait to see the day when a DM is stupid enough not to ban MMM and Mdisjunction

Note that many Dm's don't ban disjunction, but do put a mutual destruction warning on it, so don't be surprised if you start using it that he might to. Plus, why use it, it ruins all the great gear you could get.

[Nohwl]

whats MMM?

[MeklorIlavator]

whats MMM?

Morda..... Magnificent Mansion. I don't want to lookup the guys name, but in the SRD, the last two words will get you the spell. Think improved version of rope trick, if that helps.

[Nohwl]

ok, thanks.

[asphen fox]

Note that many Dm's don't ban disjunction, but do put a mutual destruction warning on it, so don't be surprised if you start using it that he might to. Plus, why use it, it ruins all the great gear you could get.

Very true. I wonder what single spell could end an encounter and get you experience without any backfires?

[leperkhaun]

Note that many Dm's don't ban disjunction, but do put a mutual destruction warning on it, so don't be surprised if you start using it that he might to. Plus, why use it, it ruins all the great gear you could get.

my DM warns us that anything cheesy we can do..(foresight, celerity, timestop..BBEG dies)...he has a BBEG that can do it too.

for the most part it keeps us from getting too wild.

[JBento]

Very true. I wonder what single spell could end an encounter and get you experience without any backfires?

Depends on the encounter. Strangely en ough, for most of them good ol' Fly will suffice...

[asphen fox]

For a third level spell... fly ROCKS! :)) Weird how stupid the WotC people are.. But I revere them for 3.5 ed... I'll burst if I did all of those stuff.

[Aquillion]

Being able to drop the Violet part of a Prismatic Wall, as a reflexive action after he has been attacked but before that attack has been resolved, to make himself immune to said attack and force the attacker to make a save or be teleported to a random plane.

IotSV is powerful, but nowhere near Incantrix. Partially there's the fact that their abilities are almost purely defensive; while this does let them get up close and into situations normal wizards would have to avoid, overall a good wizard can stay alive and still be effective, so breaking the balance of their defense is powerful but not inherently game-breaking overall (whereas breaking metamagic breaks absolutely everything.)

Remember that an IotSV can never force someone to be subjected to a warding's effect; even with Reactive Warding, they're explictly allowed to stop their attack (so you can't just drop a violet warding as someone attacks you and automatically force them to save or be banished -- you can foil their attack, but no more than that unless they choose to risk it.)

IotSV is also much less powerful at lower levels, particularly before you get Reactive Warding. Spending an action on the lesser wardings isn't that amazing... it's dropping them for free in the middle of an enemy attack that really makes the class great. And when you recall that you can't enter the class until 10th level, that means you can't get reactive warding until 14th.

(Don't forget that you can't use Reactive Warding when flat-footed, either. No immediate actions when flat-footed.)

Finally, IotSV only gets a few uses per day of their core ability. At the end of the class, 7th level (17th character level at the earliest), they have four wardings per day, enough to use in every encounter, typically -- but that's the point when they're getting 9th level spells anyway, so who cares? Before then, they're not going to be able to use it all the time.

Don't get me wrong, IotSV is still extremely powerful, and should only be used in a campaign with other reasonably high-power classes and builds... but the most broken thing about it is that it gets its own abilities on top of full wizard abilities. Its own abilities are nowhere near as broken as, say, the Incantrix, or even the basic wizard / cleric / druid / artificer etc abilities used normally. By the time an IotSV has reached the point where they get their best abilities, spellcasters will generally dominate the game anyway.

If the Celerity line is allowed in your game, IotSV is almost completely obsolete, since that makes Reactive Warding (its true most powerful ability) obsolete. Sure, probably you won't be able to drop anything quite as good as a violet veil, but as versatile as the veils are, spellcasting itself is much more versatile; you're going to be able to drop something that protects you just fine. And yes, Reactive Warding is the most powerful ability of the IotSV; violet veils are all well and good, but wizards have no trouble avoiding dangers when they have an action to burn... The IotSV is powerful because it can defend itself using those powerful veils without having to spend actions doing it.

Or, if you need a better explaination for why Incantrix beats IotSV: Which would you rather be able to do? Quickened veils 4/day, or quickened anything else you want for as long as you have spells? Take your time. Even though the veils are nearly a 9th level effect, I think it's obvious which is better, even ignoring all the Incantrix's other advantages.

Regarding disjunction: It's one of those things that's generally much nastier for monsters to use than players. After all, monsters don't care about preserving your loot for stealing (well, a good DM might make behave as if they care a bit, having the NPC wizard worry about stealing your stuff or whatever... but overall, they don't have to care, and if you're really powergaming then the NPCs will probably stop caring about that, too.) So it's generally not a good idea to remind your DM that it exists by using it when you don't absolutely have to.

[weenie]

The 3.0 version isn't quite so nasty, but still worthwhile. It nets you 3 metamagic feats, immunity to death effects, improved metamagic, and some ethereal stuff that rarely comes up. If you're looking for a slightly gimped version, try this one.

Are there any other Incantatrix variants out there? Where can I find them?

[asphen fox]

Maybe it's the fact that the DM can't TPK everyone that makes Iot7V broken... well... not broken... Useful for parties who have a strong chance of getting TPKed.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Very true. I wonder what single spell could end an encounter and get you experience without any backfires?

If you are alone:

Color Spray
Sleep
Ghoul Touch
Hideous Laughter
Ray of Stupidity
Icelance
Bands of Steel
Phantasmal Killer
Evard's Black Tentacles

In a group, suddenly there are many more options, like Blinding the crowd via Glitterdust, or Nauseating them so that anyone else can do their pitiful damage unopposed. Hell higher a rogue henchman to hide until after you disable the enemies.