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  1. - Top - End - #901
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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    You come back. There's twice as many enemies, they got reinforcements.
    You come back. The enemies aren't there. So much for beating them up.
    You come back. The bad guys have killed their prisoners, burned down the building, sacked the town, completed the evil ritual, whatever.
    Hasn't Giacomo argued in the past that a caster can't reliably rest in a Rope Trick to recover spells for exactly these reasons?
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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMonk View Post
    Hasn't Giacomo argued in the past that a caster can't reliably rest in a Rope Trick to recover spells for exactly these reasons?
    Even though no enemies saw you cast the Rope Trick, or were chasing you when you did it, or etc, yes. Yes, he has.

    Somehow, that doesn't apply to his running away. I wonder why?

  3. - Top - End - #903
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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    If by "the goodies", you mean full caster progression, yes, I'll admit that I believe that non-casters don't get caster progression.
    Would be bad if they got that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    And that's your right, to believe that what Wizards did was a bad idea.
    But they didn't. You see, EVERYone by the RAW gets access to polymorph. It's not even a personal range spell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    What I knew is that, without magical aid, and a lot of it, the monk will fail to grapple as well as an unaided fighter.
    Yes, you KNEW it. But by now, after all the statistics have been presented to you, you should KNOW better.
    Let's summarise FOUR areas of grapple success influence:
    STR (equal, or if the fighter does not care about will save, listen, spot, DEX etc., more for the fighter)
    BAB (fighter ahead)
    No. of attempts (monk ahead)
    Damage (monk ahead)
    Sounds pretty even to me, at the very least. NOW enter...the divine power effect. Monk wins grapple. NOW enter that at low levels, the use a fighter gets out of two feats for improved grapple is pretty limited. And NOW also enter that a fighter needs to get HIGHER DEX than the monk (namely, 15) to even get and keep the improved grapple feat bonus while enlarged (precondition for feat: DEX 13, gets reduced by -2 in enlarged form). So in terms of grappling, we are definitely talking fighter MAD here.
    Yes, monk is definitely a better grappler.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    Further, that unaided fighter will still be as effective after the divine power wears off.
    Whereas the monk all of a sudden collapses into nothingness? Now THAT is what I'd not even call oversimplification, but simply wrong. Do his defenses go away? His class abilities? No.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    Fighter's lower reliance on multiple stats to be effective means he'll have better strength, more items focused towards strength, and more nifty abilites that key off strength. Including grapple.
    As I showed above, actually the contrary is the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    Further, higher grapple damage isn't very accurate. Take that 2d10 monk, versus a fighter with Gauntlets +5, flaming, frost, shocking, vicious, and merciful. Add 6d6+5 to his attack. To mimic this, the monk will have to give up his extra attack.
    Hmm true, but how much more will the fighter have to pay for such a +10 weapon? Not to mention that the fighter will only have such a weapon around level 20, if at all (DMG recommends a quarter of your wealth going to single items, so at level 15 that is 50,000, barely a +5 total weapon. The monk gets it for a monk's belt, which the fighter also needs to get to even get 1d8 base damage. Monk ahead again.
    A sane fighter likely will rather get a two-handed or missile weapon as his top weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    After all, it's "normal" for monks to put a stat higher than 8 into wisdom, right?
    I never said that. I only said it is possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    Spot and listen are cross class for fighters, thus the advantage of that is mitigated.
    No, it would be great for a fighter to have a high WIS score to even get a chance to notice stuff going on around him in combat at all, in particular at the lower levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    Further, you outline the benefits of wisdom for ALL players. The difference is, with monk, Wisdom directly affects the opponent's ability to hit him with sharp stabby things. That makes wisdom more important for a monk, as it does extra things. As for Dex and fighters, Fighters have an alternative way to high AC that won't benefit from higher dex. It's called armor. That's why fighters can give minimal attention to Dex, and still be effective.
    Yes, but while doing so, they lower their initiative and hamper their missile attack department (where they can be the best of all classes due to their many feats).
    But true, monks get out of having higher WIS, due to the synergy with stun and AC. This does not mean that the other (non-divine caster) classes should ignore the benefits of high WIS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    And 50 bonus damage assumes you a) hit, and b) get 50+ damage, and c) the rule isn't waived at high level play, as is recommended,
    Where is that recommendation? I only know the PHB p. 145 entry, and the DMG offers variant (optional) rules for larger creatures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    Further, there are many abilities ad mid-high level play that nullify hide. Scent, tremorsense, blindsense, blindsight, etc.
    But they have maximum RANGES. And it's difficult to get into range, if you do not know where the opponent is (remember, this use of hide was about someone wanting to GET AWAY and then hide). Hide is a powerful ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    Snarky comments don't endear you to anyone. Please refrain from insinuating I'm dishonest without evidence to back that up.
    OK. Sorry about that - it became clearer from your explanations what you meant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    Because saves are rolled by players. And DC's are listed in books.
    Would you as a DM tell your players what DC the save has? How then keep up the suspense, if it's an effect that is uncertain/will only show later? For instance, a BBEG having charmed the group's rogue?


    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    Can't fudge a roll I don't roll.
    You can, by not telling the saving throw DC (which I so far believed is the norm).

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    Yes, Baleful Polymorph requires a will save... IF, and only if, the Fort save fails. Chances of a fighter failing a fort save? Low. That's not "targeting weaknesses". That would be why I stated you had an improper grasp of offensive magic.
    OK, let us put the rabbit example to rest. We both apparently were a bit hasty in our remarks here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    At level 1? Obscuring Mist. Blocks all LoS at distances greater than 5 feet. WITHOUT choking someone out. Downside, personal only. No putting it in a wand for you, though the 2nd level Fog Cloud would be a viable target.
    Oh, but you can put it into a wand. You're confounding it with the potion item... You can bet the Giamonk has it

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    Blocking LOS means that, with a 5 foot step, range attacks that defeat your AC have a 10% chance to hit (5 squares to choose from, 50% miss chance). Most spells require LoS, and blocking LOS prevents charges. Further, the concealment negates sneak attacks made on targets within the cloud. All in all, pretty effective for a level 1 spell, if used well.
    Wow, you just repeated one of the ways for the monk (and any non-caster) that I already mentioned as standard tactics vs spellcasters.
    The problem for your wizard is:
    1) the wizard has no move silently skill. So while he moves in the fog, the enemy will be able to pinpoint him easier than the Giamonk
    2) 50% miss chance from 10ft, 25% from 5ft is not exactly what I'd call "entire enemy offense".

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    Invis + wizard is a hard buff to wait out. Where do you go to wait? Some buffs, like Divine Power, can be waited out easily. But it's hard to avoid a foe you can't see.
    Problem: what does the invisible wizard do when the opponent has also hidden (and with the unlimited time kind, and not just 1 min/lvl)?
    But true, the divine power buff can be waited out (only - you do not notice it at work as easily as, say, someone disappearing and still making sounds...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    And if the wizard wants to use it to disengage, at a double move only, he's 600 feet away each minute. If there's anything that blocks LOS within 1800 feet, a level 3 wizard has just disengaged.
    Yes, and they SHOULD have those methods of escaping, since at those levels they are so extremely fragile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    And mobility buffs are hard to wait out. Again, if the wizard can find difficult terrain within 6000 feet (over a mile, at LEVEL 5), he can force climb checks or the like, if you intend to re-engage. If he's attacking, you better have a way to block LOS, and in some cases, LOE, or you're a sitting duck. Minutes is enough time for a wizard to drop every spell he has, and still get away.
    You assume that the opponent has no means to fly as well, that there is enough space to fly to safety (in-door adventuring?), and, most importantly, that the wizard is able to defend continuously vs missile attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    But he can be in the 4th increment, with a protection from arrows up. Or invisible. Or any of a number of other spells to defeat ranged attacks. Sigh, we give, and we take.
    But protection from arrows does not help vs magical arrows (as from a +1 bow) which tend to come up occasionally from level 5&up-
    And invisibility is not providing you with the ability to "rain death" and still retain defense vs arrows, since you then get visible.
    Sigh, looks like the wizard's defenses are good - but not as good as you think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    Polymorph is overpowered, yes. It's an example of what core specifically gives wizards at level 7, though. If you'd prefer, I can provide other examples.
    Enervation does not have the power level of the others imo that I already listed. So if you see these three spells equal to polymorph, but would also consider polymorph broken, why then do you advocate using those spells for wizard/sorcerers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    Which allows the monk to make no other attacks afterwards, whereas the wizard, again, can Fly over his barrier, forcing you to do it again. Further, you only have two wands in hand at a time. How many spells does a wizard have at his disposal? Answer: Monk loses.
    No, the wizard loses with this tactics. A wand of blinking and one of flying likely have more charges left than the wizard can keep up building walls of force from his daily repertoire. And the problem also is, that the wizard wastes a standard action for each wall of force, while the monk simply moves (ducks) under the wall of force and does his standard action to the wizard (he can even ready an attack for the wizard casting a spell). Yes. In that situation, definitely the wizard loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    Why does the "trigger object version" not allow a SR and no save? Can you not see it from the spell description? Because it is extremely unreliable for attacking someone (equal to the uncertainty surrounding saves and SR). This is also the reason why the rules mention explicitly that sympathy spell to make picking up the item more likely (which again necessitates a SR and save and is blocked by a mind blank entirely).

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    Believe me, that post is pure, unadulterated Win. If you don't want to take my word for it, check the other numerous testimonials in the thread.
    Actually, you are right - I was even among those who highly praised it. But I do not see proof anywhere in there for anything a sorcerer can do that will with 100%, or even with consistent probability in all cases, allow a "win" against same level opponents.

    - Giacomo

  4. - Top - End - #904
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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by turkishproverb View Post
    Solo: 1 THey also carry more equptment, so tend to get slowed down more easily. 2: Yea, but "warrior people" are more inclined to see someone as a battle casualty or their job to be to fight. Like i said INCLINED not goign to 3: Yea, you could. Unless David Argall says he didn't really use the flat of his sword (lol.)
    Um, what? Your logic is unfathomable.

    1. On my barbarian, I NEVER go above light encumbrance. I take careful measure of what I carry, and I don't go over unless I'm carrying somebody. (In which case, the Monk would be slowed down as well, since they'd be over light encumbrance as well.)
    2. Soldiers almost never leave behind their comrades. That is literally the motto of many modern corps; Leave noone behind. Most will carry (apparently) dead bodies out of the line of fire, rather than leave them.
    3. ? Not even sure what you mean by that. I'll admit, using the flat of a sword is still likely (in real-world terms) to produce "lethal" wounds. But if the rules permit it, it's just as easy a way to knock out an opponent in that combat system then.
    Play a wizard. Be the Goddamn Batman.

  5. - Top - End - #905
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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Why does the "trigger object version" not allow a SR and no save? Can you not see it from the spell description? Because it is extremely unreliable for attacking someone (equal to the uncertainty surrounding saves and SR). This is also the reason why the rules mention explicitly that sympathy spell to make picking up the item more likely (which again necessitates a SR and save and is blocked by a mind blank entirely).
    You could have a rogue exchange the trigger object with one of the monk's numerous wands.
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  6. - Top - End - #906
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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by M0rt View Post
    Ah, so for casters and non-casters to be balanced DM has to manipulate in-game time? Yeah, balance needs DM fiat, sure. But we all know that already.
    You mean like the stuff he does when the casters run out of spells and the group retreats for the night?
    Time manipulation has nothing to do with DM fiat, it's simply practical. Or do you play round per round in your campaigns?

    - Giacomo

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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMonk View Post
    You could have a rogue exchange the trigger object with one of the monk's numerous wands.
    But then you'd be using someone else's class skills to show you are effective...

    - Giacomo

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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMonk View Post
    You could have a rogue exchange the trigger object with one of the monk's numerous wands.
    That's not a bad idea.
    Furthermore, what kind of Monk goes around all its life witha mindblank on? That can't be cheap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    But then you'd be using someone else's class skills to show you are effective...

    - Giacomo
    So do it yourself, dammit!
    Cast invisibility and Silence!
    Last edited by Collin152; 2008-03-29 at 04:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    Actually, you are right - I was even among those who highly praised it. But I do not see proof anywhere in there for anything a sorcerer can do that will with 100%, or even with consistent probability in all cases, allow a "win" against same level opponents.
    To begin to see how OZYMANDIAS wins, let us consider his core spell list.

    Spoiler
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    9:
    Prismatic Sphere
    Time Stop
    Shades

    /Gate


    8:
    Greater Prying Eyes
    Greater Shadow Evocation
    Mind Blank

    /Irresistible Dance

    7:
    Spell Turning
    Arcane Sight, Greater
    Limited Wish


    6:
    Disintegrate
    Dispel Magic, Greater
    Herosim, Greater


    5:
    Feeblemind
    Wall of Force
    Telekinesis
    Overland Flight or Persistent Image


    4:
    Enervation
    Greater Invisibility
    Resilient Sphere
    Dimension Door


    3:
    Fly or Shrink Item
    Slow
    Stinking Cloud
    Dispel Magic (replace with Explosive Runes)


    2:
    Resistance to Energy
    Alter Self
    See Invisibility (Replace at higher levels with? Rope Trick?)
    Shatter
    Invisibility (replace with Glitterdust)


    1:
    Protection from Evil
    True Strike
    Magic Missile
    Grease
    Shield or Mage Armor (Replace at higher levels with?)


    You can clearly see that there are many nasty spells on here.

    How are you going to counter all of these, and how much would it cost, in terms of feats, skill points and money?
    Last edited by Solo; 2008-03-30 at 02:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    And NOW also enter that a fighter needs to get HIGHER DEX than the monk (namely, 15) to even get and keep the improved grapple feat bonus while enlarged (precondition for feat: DEX 13, gets reduced by -2 in enlarged form). So in terms of grappling, we are definitely talking fighter MAD here.
    Hey, Giacomo.
    Didn't you suggest Enlarge Person for your monk, at all levels? So he could grapple better?
    Didn't the example monk you built have Dex 14, going down to 12 with Enlarge, and wouldn't he then lose Improved Grapple? Doesn't he take Stunning Fist as a monk bonus feat, and Improved Grapple as a loseable normal feat?
    And wouldn't that continue to be the case until he can buy 4,000 gp Gloves of Dexterity +2 (much later than everyone else, with all the money he's spending on wands of Obscuring Mist and stuff)?

    Whereas the monk all of a sudden collapses into nothingness? Now THAT is what I'd not even call oversimplification, but simply wrong. Do his defenses go away? His class abilities? No.
    Gia, the reason you have to rely on so many buffs is that your monk can't do crap without them.


    items, so at level 15 that is 50,000, barely a +5 total weapon. The monk gets it for a monk's belt, which the fighter also needs to get to even get 1d8 base damage. Monk ahead again.
    A sane fighter likely will rather get a two-handed or missile weapon as his top weapon.
    It's a +1 weapon with +4 worth of enhancements. Greater Magic Weapon. +1 Holy Wounding?

    No, it would be great for a fighter to have a high WIS score to even get a chance to notice stuff going on around him in combat at all, in particular at the lower levels.
    The people who have played fighters are telling you they don't care much about WIS. It's one of the dump stats. That extra +1 or 2 to Spot is NOT worth your points.

    But true, monks get out of having higher WIS, due to the synergy with stun and AC. This does not mean that the other (non-divine caster) classes should ignore the benefits of high WIS.
    Yes, it does! Monks NEED wis, for AC (ESPECIALLY if they're high STR, rather than weapon finessers) and for Stunning Fist to work, like, ever.
    Other classes ignore WIS... in favor of other stats. The fighter gets more out having 16 STR than out of having 12 WIS and etc.

    Problem: what does the invisible wizard do when the opponent has also hidden (and with the unlimited time kind, and not just 1 min/lvl)?
    But true, the divine power buff can be waited out (only - you do not notice it at work as easily as, say, someone disappearing and still making sounds...)
    IMO, "calling upon the divine power of your patron" will have SOME visible effect.

    What does the invisible wizard do when the opponent has also hidden? Um, *walk on by*? Invisibility isn't an offensive spell. The hiding person will have to stay under cover, anyway (which, again, not possible everywhere).

    Oh, but you can put it into a wand. You're confounding it with the potion item... You can bet the Giamonk has it
    So, now your first-level monk has wands of Enlarge Person, Cure Light Wounds, AND Obscuring Mist? Wow, that's 2250 gp already.

    No, the wizard loses with this tactics. A wand of blinking and one of flying likely have more charges left than the wizard can keep up building walls of force from his daily repertoire. And the problem also is, that the wizard wastes a standard action for each wall of force, while the monk simply moves (ducks) under the wall of force and does his standard action to the wizard (he can even ready an attack for the wizard casting a spell). Yes. In that situation, definitely the wizard loses.
    Giacomo, how do you have a WAND OF BLINK and a WAND OF FLY, each worth 10k+ GP, at level FIVE? Or even at level 10 (weren't you going to buy like four other wands, too)?
    Last edited by Reel On, Love; 2008-03-29 at 04:10 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #911
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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Collin152 View Post
    Ah, I forgot the commanding part. Even worse.

    On the less-cheesy side...
    Honestly though, how does a monk evade a Demon? As I recall, most/all get to Greater Teleport at will.
    The demon (this makes me think it's level 12&up we talk about) needs a (probably magic) way to find out where the monk went with his dimension door, or etheralness (at high levels). Outside core, there is the anticipate teleport spell, as far as I recall, but in core? You'll need divination spells, some of which allow a will save and also are stopped by the monk's SR.

    - Giacomo

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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    But then you'd be using someone else's class skills to show you are effective...

    - Giacomo
    But you're doing so for one unusual event, not to make yourself a viable character.
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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solo View Post
    But seriously, Giacomo, you get onto me for criticizing the monk while never having played one before, yet you yourself have never played so much as a game of DnD ever.

    Ahem?
    But...how come YOU should not recognise irony, when you see it? I guess.... Or wait...that post was irony again...and I fell for it, darn!

    - Giacomo
    Last edited by Sir Giacomo; 2008-03-29 at 04:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    The demon (this makes me think it's level 12&up we talk about) needs a (probably magic) way to find out where the monk went with his dimension door, or etheralness (at high levels). Outside core, there is the anticipate teleport spell, as far as I recall, but in core? You'll need divination spells, some of which allow a will save and also are stopped by the monk's SR.

    - Giacomo
    Giacomo, Dimension Door is like 800 feet. Where can you *go*? Even if it's somewhere he can't see, he can teleport around a bunch of times.

    Outsiders with Greater Teleport come with CR as low as five (bearded devil). At CRs 6-11, they're plentiful. In fact, there are *more* teleporting outsiders with CRs *below* 12 than there are with CRs *above* 12!

    P.S.
    I love how when you want to kill a demon, he's obviously in the middle of an empty plain, but when you want to hide from one, you're obviously in some kind of labyrinth.
    Last edited by Reel On, Love; 2008-03-29 at 04:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    I love how when you want to kill a demon, he's obviously in the middle of an empty plain, but when you want to hide from one, you're obviously in some kind of labyrinth.
    Schroedinger's battlefield?
    Sounds like a good spell to make.

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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Collin152 View Post
    Schroedinger's battlefield?
    Sounds like a good spell to make.
    Shadowcasters can get something similar. Look for Black Labyrinth (which would be a great metal band name, incidentally).

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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    And so, Sir Giacomo's battle against logic, rules, common sense and hard, cold facts continues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    You mean like the stuff he does when the casters run out of spells and the group retreats for the night?
    Time manipulation has nothing to do with DM fiat, it's simply practical. Or do you play round per round in your campaigns?

    - Giacomo
    Speeding up time when the party is sleeping anyway is one thing. Sppeding up time after the party have just escaped from a fight and the enemies are likely chasing them is something entirely different. One of the differences being, the first is done to speed things up, the second is made up ny you to justify you impractical and unworkable tactics.
    My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gullara and Purple Eagle.
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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    A few things:
    No. I never have. I made it all up.
    Text is an awful medium to communicate sarcasm. Are you actually being sarcastic here? I can't tell.

    But...how come YOU should not recognise irony, when you see it? I guess.... Or wait...that post was irony again...and I fell for it, darn!
    He has recognised irony. It's extremely ironic that you're so vehemently defending something from a system that you don't have any experience with.
    You might be confusing sarcasm with irony, which would explain a lot.

    Ro'L has been making a lot of replies recently that you have ignored. Whether it was by accident or not, you should go back and reply to them, he's made some very good points.

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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebo_ View Post


    Text is an awful medium to communicate sarcasm. Are you actually being sarcastic here? I can't tell.
    Worship me and you'll be able to Detect Sarcasm as a domain spell!
    Last edited by Solo; 2008-03-29 at 05:21 PM.

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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solo View Post
    Worship me and you'll be able to Detect Sarcasm as a domain spell!
    That spell is less than helpful. All it tells me is "oh, suuuuure. Yeah, he's totally being sarcastic. Riiiight."

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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    [QUOTE=Solo;4120668]To begin to see how OZYMANDIAS wins, let us consider his core spell list.[QUOTE]

    Spoiler
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    9:
    Prismatic Sphere.
    Rod of Cancellation, blink (bargains at those levels).

    Time Stop
    Surprise/win initiative (foresight is missing on Ozymandias' spell list, and he does not have spot/listen/hide/move silently as class skills). And even with time stop up, Oyzmandias cannot attack the Giamonk.

    Shades
    Conjuration spells of levels 1-8 that are only at 80% of their power? Hmmm...does not sound too impressive. It increases your sorcerer's versatility, but allows no "win".

    /Gate
    Now, arguably the strongest spell in the game. You probably know already my interpretation of it, which greatly reduces its alleged overpoweredness. Suffice to say the following:
    Monk escapes. Comes back after the round/level are over. At level 18 when the sorcerer has the spell, certainly doable. Heck, even a dimension door out of sight is enough for this, while Ozymandias just lost X.P. Highly atmospheric spell, but no "win".


    Ressources spent so far: ring of blinking, rod of cancellation (38,000 gold pieces), good initiative and ways to surprise (DEX booster, superior move - can take the monk outside true seeing range and still be able to partially charge with fly effect from winged boots on, adding another 16,000 gp), dimension door ability.
    TOTAL level 9: 54,000 gold and no feats, plus the usual maxed out ms/hide/spot/listen combo.


    8:
    Greater Prying Eyes
    These are actually excellent. But the monk is one of the best classes against those, since when they're flying at full speed (30ft), they are only at +11 to hide, while the monk at that level (16) likely already has a +30 (19 ranks, +5 competence, +2 circumstance, +4 WIS). Conversely, the eyes only have +16&up spot vs the monk's (even with half-speed faster move) of a similarly high +32 hide). And the monk can simply destroy them with his unarmed strike, which is not noticeable to the sorcerer until later when the eyes return and report.

    Greater Shadow Evocation
    Versatile, but even worse than the shades spell for only 60% damage vs the monk's improved evasion, SR and superior reflex save AND will save.
    Contingency can be emulated, but that is at best an escape pod (which needs to be worded very cautiously), not a "win".


    Mind Blank
    Luckily the monk will not attack the sorcerer's mind.

    /Irresistible Dance
    Spell resistance, high touch AC (and the blink effect negating 50% of the touch attacks), possibly a mind blank spell - but not really necessary. Ah, and the sorcerer has to get first in case he has no freedom of movement up- which would get countered by AMF.

    Ressources spent:
    +5 spot goggles, +5 cloak (2,500 each), masterwork tools (100). Stat boosters to WIS, DEX +4 (32,000). Throw in some boosts to the touch AC, say the monk's belt (necessary, anyhow, 13,000), and a ring of protection +2 (8,000), ioun stone +1 (5,000). Touch AC would then thus at level 16 be at: 26, boostable to 29 when fighting defensively.

    Throw in 10 scrolls of AMF (16,500gp) and do the usual raising of UMD with your human bonus skill points. And may two feats boosting UMD (as well as circlet of persuasion, 4,500gp, and masterwork tools, 50). These will be also around at lower levels, for respective levels.
    TOTAL level 8: 79,250.


    7:
    Spell Turning
    You can bet the monk would never target the sorcerer with a spell

    Arcane Sight, Greater
    Oh look, the monk is full of magic. Does not help vs hide. And what sorcerer would use that spell first in combat when being attacked by a monk?

    Limited Wish
    Any 1st-6th sorcerer spell for just 300 XP per casting? Wow, a bargain. Unfortunately, the spells below are not that dangerous for the monk. And why would Solo not have chosen the best 1st-6th spells?
    Duplicating all other (including bard spells) of 1-5th level is not that bad, though. Hmmm. What divine spell of that level could hurt the monk of level 14-15? Can't think of any right now.


    Ressources spent: Oh, looks like nothing needed vs Ozymandias' most powerful spells of levels 14-15. None apart from lower-level touch AC versionsIn case some limited wish spells emulate save-or-dies, save boosts are also OK (but the SR already helps a lot)

    6:
    Disintegrate
    Touch AC. Fort save. Nuff' said.

    Dispel Magic, Greater
    Gone are the buffs...except...vs the sorcerer at that level (when he reaches him), he does not need any. Or it is AMF up, where dispel does not help

    Herosim, Greater
    Good thing to buff the monk with. Not to fight him with (well, the sorcerer COULD try to melee the monk...

    Ressources spent: none apart from lower-level touch AC and save boost versions. Hmmm. This gets suspicious.

    5:
    Feeblemind
    Hmmm. Vs the will save. And vs the enhancement spell bonus of the monk. Ah, and enter a cloak of resistance effect at these lower levels 1-11. Let us say a +2 (4,000).

    Wall of Force
    Rod of cancellation (11,000). Or wait out. The sorcerer can't hurt you, either. Yes, that's actually better.

    Telekinesis
    sustained force: Will save each round...for being moved around 20ft per round requiring concentration. Here, at long last shuriken can hurt a bit when being moved into the air (otherwise vs the monk's superior move it's no big use). Well..not thaaat much of a win.
    Combat Maneuver: or bull rush, disarm (are you joking? ), grapple, or trip. Best attack possiblity so far. Vs strong areas of the monk who will be ahead due to improved grapple and improved trip feats. Bull rush...hmmm
    Violent thrust: sorcerer with normal attack roll? Well...
    Telekinesis is overall a good spell- despite the good monk's defenses already there, but unfortunately it needs a target to work. Get conealment up, it's no use.
    A good way to do that at those levels: Eversmoking bottle (5,400 gp)


    Overland Flight or Persistent Image
    Well, this does not really defeat the monk, does it? But it can allow the sorcerer to escape...or the boots of flying from above are already around, then the sorcerer has a problem since his overland flight is much, much slower than the 90ft speed monk.
    I like persistent image, though, but it can only trick the monk, not really defeat him except in very situational situations...


    Ressources spent: 25,400. Bonus feats improved grapple and trip. Blind-fight feat is also quite good when using concealment.

    4:
    Enervation
    1d4 negative levels. And touch AC needs to be hit (at level 8 the monk likely has something around 20). Hmmm. It's a spell that gives you an edge over longer combat, but not in single combat vs the monk. Even if he loses 4 levels, grapple does not need any of the stuff that is affected by the penalties (except the first touch hit roll).

    Greater Invisibility
    1 round/lvl. Monk gets up his concealment as well. Draw. Until the 1 round/lvl are over. Then it's Ozymandias move again.

    Resilient Sphere
    The easiest spell to wait out. And if the sorcerer has dimension door, why didn't he use it in the first place?

    Dimension Door
    Great escape pod! But no win.

    Ressources spent: none special, but the lower-level versions of the above touch AC, resistance and stat booster.

    3:
    Fly or Shrink Item
    For those crucial situations when the monk loses initiative, he can drink a potion of flying and be superior in speed from level 6&up. Shrink item does not work in an offensive way as per FAQ.

    Slow
    Will save. This one's actually quite good, although the monk retains the ability to do standard actions (or could move next to sorcerer, wait for AoO to grapple).

    Stinking Cloud
    Fort save. This is actually so far the best chance for winning, and the best it achieves is reducing the monk to a move action (if he moves silently outside the cloud on the other side, the sorcerer can no longer target him or attack him).

    Dispel Magic (replace with Explosive Runes)
    Good vs buffs, but not for winning. Explosive runes -well the monk might be tricked into reading the runes...but the monk can simply buy it for 150gp and do the same. No win.

    Ressources spent for monk: 150 gp for letter of (fake) admittance of defeat to Ozymandias with explosive runes. Lower level touch AC and save boost items.

    2:
    Resistance to Energy
    No win vs monk. Obvious.

    Alter Self
    No win vs monk. Obvious (there is no humanoid in core to grant fly, or you start as a planetouched and lose one caster level). And the natural AC boost does not help vs the grapple attack that is really devastating for a sorcerer at these fragile levels.

    See Invisibility (Replace at higher levels with? Rope Trick?)
    The monk will not be invisible, he'll hide.

    Shatter
    There is nothing to shatter on the monk. Magical items you can target may be shattered though. Great. You shattered the monk's enlarge wand, then monk grapples you.

    Invisibility (replace with Glitterdust)
    1 min/lvl. And you cannot attack. For the rest see also Greater invisibility above.

    Ressources spent: lower level versions of above defensive items, although at levels 1-4 the only thing around realy is likely partially charged wands, scrolls and potions.

    1:
    Protection from Evil
    Helps vs evil monks, yes. A +2 vs touch grapple attack for some minutes.

    True Strike
    One crossbow bolt of 1d8 damage could strike true. If you go first.

    Magic Missile
    up to 2d4+2. Hmmm. Good, but concealment again completely nullifies it (say a wand of obscuring mist, see Talic's description of the great use of the spell above).

    Grease
    One ofthe most overrated spells. Reflex save. Simply step out 5ft of the 10ft square. You delay the monk at best, but do not win.

    Shield or Mage Armor (Replace at higher levels with?)
    Does not help vs touch attacks of grapple.

    Ressources spent: nothing special here. Just grapple (so the improved grapple feat helps.



    [QUOTE=Solo;4120668]You can clearly see that there are many nasty spells on here.
    How are you going to counter all of these, and how much would it cost, in terms of feats, skill points and money? [QUOTE]

    As you can cleary see that there are so easy ways to thwart them, or they do not even give you an edge vs a monk. Only at the highest levels magic items will be necessary to keep up, as per wbl.
    And the items listed are not even a 5th of the total items you gain until level 20.

    Do not get me wrong: I like your spell choices. But the stuff I listed shows you how easy it can be for a monk to defend vs them, making it quite hard to "win" against this particular non-caster class.

    - Giacomo

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    Giacomo, Dimension Door is like 800 feet. Where can you *go*? Even if it's somewhere he can't see, he can teleport around a bunch of times.
    Yes, but while he's at it, the party can hide. They could even *gasp* use a rope trick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    Outsiders with Greater Teleport come with CR as low as five (bearded devil). At CRs 6-11, they're plentiful. In fact, there are *more* teleporting outsiders with CRs *below* 12 than there are with CRs *above* 12!
    Yes, but do they also come with the ability to know where you have gone with a dimdoor 800ft away? In, say a dungeon? You could dim door next floor up/down without the demon having a chance to know where you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    P.S.
    I love how when you want to kill a demon, he's obviously in the middle of an empty plain, but when you want to hide from one, you're obviously in some kind of labyrinth.
    I love how you compare completely different things. One was a scenario I set up to show how it is theoretically possible for a level 20 fighter to kill a balor which was denied by Bears with Lasers to be even possible. And I even did it in one round. And it was not even an empty plain, but an enemy camp of an evil army laying siege to the city of the fighter, with the balor in charge of the army and arrogantly standing among his troops several hundred feet away.

    For the escape thing not to work, you actually NEED an empty plane, which was not even assumed in the other scenario.

    Please do not do these comparsions out of the blue, making up things I never said.

    - Giacomo

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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    I love how you compare completely different things. One was a scenario I set up to show how it is theoretically possible for a level 20 fighter to kill a balor which was denied by Bears with Lasers to be even possible. And I even did it in one round. And it was not even an empty plain, but an enemy camp of an evil army laying siege to the city of the fighter, with the balor in charge of the army and arrogantly standing among his troops several hundred feet away.
    - Giacomo
    Does this Fighter also make heavy use of UMD?
    Or possibly other things that are totally unrelated to beign a fighter?
    Or possibly catching this Balor unawares?

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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Would be bad if they got that.



    But they didn't. You see, EVERYone by the RAW gets access to polymorph. It's not even a personal range spell.



    Yes, you KNEW it. But by now, after all the statistics have been presented to you, you should KNOW better.
    Let's summarise FOUR areas of grapple success influence:
    STR (equal, or if the fighter does not care about will save, listen, spot, DEX etc., more for the fighter)
    Fighter's job isn't to spot enemies. For those 4 points of wisdom he skimps on, let's give him Iron will to make up. Still more for the fighter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    BAB (fighter ahead)
    Agreed
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    No. of attempts (monk ahead)
    Once in grapple, maybe, but when moving up? Equal footing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Damage (monk ahead)
    Absolutely not. Fighters can power attack unarmed too. Fighters can use enhanced gauntlets to bring power up to par (or are you trying to say that WBL isn't a factor? Remember the +6d6+5 gauntlets I mentioned earlier? Fighter ahead.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Sounds pretty even to me, at the very least. NOW enter...the divine power effect.
    Ok. Monk wins initiative. Move action draw wand, standard activate divine power. Fighter uses ring of invisibility. Waits out buff.
    OR Fighter uses full base attack and the Str +6 belt that he has (instead of a monk's belt), and still has an advantage, with his gauntlets that are vicious, flaming, frost, shock, and merciful. Wins by superior damage and HP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Monk wins grapple.
    See above, where I factor in the full round it takes to use that wand, where you have no mobility, or attacks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    NOW enter that at low levels, the use a fighter gets out of two feats for improved grapple is pretty limited. And NOW also enter that a fighter needs to get HIGHER DEX than the monk (namely, 15) to even get and keep the improved grapple feat bonus while enlarged (precondition for feat: DEX 13, gets reduced by -2 in enlarged form). So in terms of grappling, we are definitely talking fighter MAD here.
    At low levels? Maybe. However, at low levels, enlarge is less a factor. Also, at low levels, enlarged, imp grapple isn't as necessary, since most enemies won't have reach, and thus, won't be making AoO's versus your grapple anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Yes, monk is definitely a better grappler.
    So you keep saying. It'd be marvelous if the facts agreed with you, hmm?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Whereas the monk all of a sudden collapses into nothingness? Now THAT is what I'd not even call oversimplification, but simply wrong. Do his defenses go away? His class abilities? No.
    Not saying he disappears. He just loses the only thing that brings him close to parity for the 7 rounds it's up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    As I showed above, actually the contrary is the case.
    Again, something you keep saying, that doesn't seem to stand up to objective critical observation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Hmm true, but how much more will the fighter have to pay for such a +10 weapon? Not to mention that the fighter will only have such a weapon around level 20, if at all (DMG recommends a quarter of your wealth going to single items, so at level 15 that is 50,000, barely a +5 total weapon. The monk gets it for a monk's belt, which the fighter also needs to get to even get 1d8 base damage. Monk ahead again.
    Greater magic weapon. +6 weapon. After all, if we're competing against Schrodinger's Monk, why not use Schrodinger's fighter, hmm? Using a cloak of charisma, he diplomanced elminster into giving him all his magic items at reduced cost, and then slept with the Simbul. All cross-class, of course.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    A sane fighter likely will rather get a two-handed or missile weapon as his top weapon.
    And that fighter will deal with challenges more effectively than the monk, also.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    I never said that. I only said it is possible.
    Your exact words were that a monk only "needs" an 8 wisdom. The obvious counter is that wizards only "need" an int of 10 to cast. That doesn't make them effective, however. Effective monks, you're looking at 12-14 wisdom, 14 dex, 14 con, and, if your DM is running a high power campaign, some int and Str. Or, if running a Giamonk, 18 in every stat, cause the DM gives you 14 in every stat and you diplomance 4 wishes for each.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    No, it would be great for a fighter to have a high WIS score to even get a chance to notice stuff going on around him in combat at all, in particular at the lower levels.
    Ah, that's the beauty of combat. Things acting offensively generally have a hard time hiding, need cover to do it, and take obscene penalties. Even outside of core, it's hard to get an ECL 1 character with a hide above 20. Incidentally, the penalty to hide for sniping (1 shot, full round action) is, -20. So the 20 dex halfling rogue with 4 ranks in hide, skill focus in hide, and a masterwork tool of hiding, he has a +14. If sniping, he has a -6. I think the fighter can see even him, usually. Even with a -1 wisdom, and no ranks in spot. It's becoming more evident that your claim that you haven't played is true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Yes, but while doing so, they lower their initiative and hamper their missile attack department (where they can be the best of all classes due to their many feats).
    And where they likely won't go, because in Core, ranged attacking builds are pathetically limited. Even outside of core, successful ranged attack builds typically use brutal throw, for ranged combat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    But true, monks get out of having higher WIS, due to the synergy with stun and AC. This does not mean that the other (non-divine caster) classes should ignore the benefits of high WIS.
    True. Rogues, paladins, and rangers get quite a bit from Sense motive, spot, and listen. For other classes, boosting a stat to gain proficiency in cross-class skills that won't keep pace with the DC's that are needed anyway... That's what's known as a "bad move".
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Where is that recommendation? I only know the PHB p. 145 entry, and the DMG offers variant (optional) rules for larger creatures.
    It's listed in campaign settings, I believe the epic handbook, and in excerpts written by the game designers on the Wizards website. This is actually to protect players, as monsters can fail 100 of those saves, no problem. Players encounter suck when they fail 1. It's the concept of increased randomness helping the underdog. That underdog is, in this case, the NPC combatants, who are expected to lose every fight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    But they have maximum RANGES. And it's difficult to get into range, if you do not know where the opponent is (remember, this use of hide was about someone wanting to GET AWAY and then hide). Hide is a powerful ability.
    I'm not denying hide is powerful. My single best class I play is rogue. I know well the powers, and limitations, of hide. And I'll tell you. Once you're spotted once, whether by an attack, or spotting, it's over. The hider is 100% defensive, unless he's got a devious trick. Also, unlike spells, most creature sensory abilities are constant. You can't wait it out. That ability may have a range, but believe me, within that range, you will never... EVER, be able to hide, in core.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Would you as a DM tell your players what DC the save has? How then keep up the suspense, if it's an effect that is uncertain/will only show later? For instance, a BBEG having charmed the group's rogue?
    Nope. I know the odds of the ability succeeding. If I don't want my players to have a chance of failing an ability, I don't use that ability. Also, bear in mind, 95% of a D&D game does not involve the BBEG. It involves normal NPC's, and creatures from the MM. And once the group figures out the DC of 1-2 spells, they'll know the DC of all of them. I am one of the DM's that believes that Character Death is a roleplaying opportunity, not the end of the road. So I don't shy from dishing it out when needed. If a player has a 65% chance of passing, and passes, great. If he's asleep or charmed? Sorry, but them's the breaks. For one, my players LOVE when I charm/dominate them. Lets them try a new roleplay style for a bit (I'll take them to the side, describe their orders, and let them carry them out. It's actually a good experience, when not overdone).
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    You can, by not telling the saving throw DC (which I so far believed is the norm).
    Tell me, Gia, when a Nightshade tries to plane shift someone, what's the DC? What about when a Nymph uses blinding beauty? It's all there, and it's all able to be seen or calculated. Breaking the rules without good cause hampers the game and shows partiality. Two things I avoid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    OK, let us put the rabbit example to rest. We both apparently were a bit hasty in our remarks here.
    I suppose that's as much a concession that I'm right as I'm going to get.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Oh, but you can put it into a wand. You're confounding it with the potion item... You can bet the Giamonk has it
    What's that bring his WBL up to? We've got Wand of Obscuring Mist, Blink, Dimension Door, Divine power, bull's strength, what else? how much of your WBL is used on expendable items, ones that will deplete your WBL faster than you acquire it? Note that each must be drawn and then used. and when you use it, that's a round you're not doing anything else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Wow, you just repeated one of the ways for the monk (and any non-caster) that I already mentioned as standard tactics vs spellcasters.
    The problem for your wizard is:
    1) the wizard has no move silently skill. So while he moves in the fog, the enemy will be able to pinpoint him easier than the Giamonk
    At DC of MS +20. Assume wizard has a dex of 14, that's an average of 12, DC 32 to pinpoint... At level 1. Pinpointing creatures you can't see also isn't core. That's an epic use of listen, covered in the epic handbook. Just sayin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    2) 50% miss chance from 10ft, 25% from 5ft is not exactly what I'd call "entire enemy offense".
    My bad, I forgot, there are 9 squares he can move in with a 5 foot step. That means it's not a 10% at range, it's a 5.5%. And for melee, it's no charge. If it's cast, and a move action taken, wiz can be anywhere in the 40ft diameter cloud. lowers chances to under 1% (far under) for range, difficult to find to hit in melee, and overall, about 10x harder to kill. If, at level 1, they beat the 12-16 AC. A 20ft radius sphere is a lot of ground to cover. If the enemy dives in to search it, they're going to have difficulty seeing each other, and difficulty coordinating an offense. I'd say that qualifies as shutting down the offense. They have to completely change tactics. Further, that concealment means the rogue can hide from 5 feet away, and keep LOS outside of the cloud, the fighter can cover the mage and ready an action to whack whatever manages to find him, and the cleric can stick near to both, and be ready to drop whatever assist spells are needed, or melee assistance. Only downside, the rogue loses sneak attack while attacking targets in the cloud. If this is a standard tactic of the group, they're gonna have a better plan than the foe. Believe me, obscuring mist decimates enemies. It's a spell that stops all vision, even True Seeing. At higher levels, wind spells can mitigate it, but at low levels, it's one of the best control spells out there. Period.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Problem: what does the invisible wizard do when the opponent has also hidden (and with the unlimited time kind, and not just 1 min/lvl)?
    Detect magic, focus for three rounds, and pinpoint the location of his 73 wands? Further, note, that hide, while powerful, does have limitations. You can't hide if you have no cover (or concealment) relative to the target. You can't hide if being observed. What this means, is that, to hide, the monk must stick to areas where he has cover. Solution. Invis wizard moves to an area where there is none. Now there's no hiding, if you follow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    But true, the divine power buff can be waited out (only - you do not notice it at work as easily as, say, someone disappearing and still making sounds...)
    Again, pinpointing by listen is an epic usage, and is not core.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Yes, and they SHOULD have those methods of escaping, since at those levels they are so extremely fragile.
    Fragile? Only 2 hp per level less than the monk.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    You assume that the opponent has no means to fly as well, that there is enough space to fly to safety (in-door adventuring?), and, most importantly, that the wizard is able to defend continuously vs missile attacks.
    Yes, I do. At level 5, the enemies that will fly are few. At levle 5, the range attacks are similarly few. And the wizard doesn't need to defend continuously. About 4 rounds is enough, while the rest of the group owns the enemy who spent all their resources trying to get through the prot from arrows spell. Further, fly has limitations, true. It's not an "I win 100% of the time" spell. Other good 3rd level spells include: Dispel Magic (bane of wand users everywhere), Hold Person, Suggestion, Blink, Haste, and Slow. Now, no one of these spells equals "win". But the wise wizard, who has at least a couple diff spells prepared, well, they all together do equal "wizard wins".
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    But protection from arrows does not help vs magical arrows (as from a +1 bow) which tend to come up occasionally from level 5&up-
    Rarely, but yes. Dispel magic, above. And magical arrows will be limited in quantity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    And invisibility is not providing you with the ability to "rain death" and still retain defense vs arrows, since you then get visible.
    But they will allow you to Summon monsters, haste allies, displace allies, or the like. The invisi-caster can make his presence known without attacking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Sigh, looks like the wizard's defenses are good - but not as good as you think.
    and your faith in your friends is yours.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Enervation does not have the power level of the others imo that I already listed. So if you see these three spells equal to polymorph, but would also consider polymorph broken, why then do you advocate using those spells for wizard/sorcerers?
    I never said I consider these spells equal. Though Black tentacles comes close. They're strong 4th level spells. But let's look at enervation. Assuming just the spell, your opponent gets the following:
    • -1 to -4 on all attack rolls and saves
    • -1 to -4 on all ability checks and skill checks
    • -5 to -20 Hit Points
    • -1 to -4 effective levels
    • For casters, -1 to -4 spells prepared.


    Further, if neg levels = character levels, you die. I'd say that's not so shabby. Oh, and those effects last 7 hours, starting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    No, the wizard loses with this tactics. A wand of blinking and one of flying likely have more charges left than the wizard can keep up building walls of force from his daily repertoire. And the problem also is, that the wizard wastes a standard action for each wall of force, while the monk simply moves (ducks) under the wall of force and does his standard action to the wizard (he can even ready an attack for the wizard casting a spell). Yes. In that situation, definitely the wizard loses.
    Interesting. Now let's look at this scenario. Monk closes to within 5 feet, and attacks, hitting, but failing to stun the wizard. Wizard steps 5 feet back and drops a wall of force. Monk draws a wand of blink, and activates it. Wizard casts fly (assuming open area) or Invisibility (if not). Either way, moves afterwards Monk moves through wall, has no attack.
    Again, you note that monk must draw and use the wand, and thus cannot reach the wizard quite as fast as you'd like to think.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Why does the "trigger object version" not allow a SR and no save? Can you not see it from the spell description? Because it is extremely unreliable for attacking someone (equal to the uncertainty surrounding saves and SR). This is also the reason why the rules mention explicitly that sympathy spell to make picking up the item more likely (which again necessitates a SR and save and is blocked by a mind blank entirely).
    More unreliable? I've seen more than one player fall victim to this spell, and more than one NPC as well. Keep in mind, it's not insanely unreasonable for a monk that needs constant wealth to maintain his neverending wands to want a gem valued at over 15,000 gold. Such items do have a bit of pull of their own, that a mind blank won't block. Note, also, the item is completely safe for anyone else to handle. So Bubba can hold it in his hands, and offer it to you, and there's very little indicator of the nasty death that awaits. It's insidious because it's SUBTLE. And a wizard worth his salt can play mind games. For example, what if, and this is reaching, what if the portal to his keep is keyed to require you hold that gem to enter? Sounds like an effective way to keep one special person out. Or in (the gem).
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Actually, you are right - I was even among those who highly praised it. But I do not see proof anywhere in there for anything a sorcerer can do that will with 100%, or even with consistent probability in all cases, allow a "win" against same level opponents.
    That you do not see it, does not make it not so.

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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    Rod of Cancellation... single use. Lots of money. It also takes an action to use. Yes, congratulations- you destroyed the Sorcerer's spell. You know one of the major advantages a sorcerer has over other casters? Instant versatility with their selection and lots of spells per day. They'll just do it again. Got another one?

    Ring of Blinking... 50% to get through 5ft of anything. 50% chance of not- taking damage, and then possibly getting affected by whatever you went through. Plus you have to activate it, and it only lasts 5 rounds per activation (as a standard action). Hmm.

    Using AMF as a defense will render your mobility useless. He can simply fly up and pelt you with summons/instantaneous conjurations if you do that- and you'll be doomed. Or you'll have to run.

    I see your Touch AC against Disintegrate and raise you his 1st level true strike spell.
    What? You thought he was really going to use that with a crossbow?

    Eversmoking bottle would need to be used before you'd get concealment... and the Wizard/Sorcerer doesn't have to enter it. He'll use your method- wait until it's gone. It actually works here, since the monk has to cower in it for it to be effective.

    I'll just stop there. Really- think out your ideas before putting them up.

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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    But then you'd be using someone else's class skills to show you are effective...

    - Giacomo
    Actually, Use Magic Device is a class skill for rogues.

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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    Gia, do me a favor and re-read the Blink spell and, say, Wall of Force or Prismatic Sphere. The relevant information might be in the "Ethereal" condition, too.

    The Rod of Cancellation being able to cancel an infinite number of spells is preposterous; you know as well as I do that it's one-use. Cancelling a spell is just like cancelling an item for it.
    Last edited by Reel On, Love; 2008-03-29 at 06:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    Yes, but while he's at it, the party can hide. They could even *gasp* use a rope trick.
    Most of the party can't hide, pretty much at all. They could *gasp* use a Rope Trick, but why would they want to? That devil will still be there, the buffs they cast are running down...
    Rope Tricks are for resting, not from hiding from demons that are chasing you.

    Yes, but do they also come with the ability to know where you have gone with a dimdoor 800ft away? In, say a dungeon? You could dim door next floor up/down without the demon having a chance to know where you are.
    The demon can check one room every six second. I'd say that it can find you pretty DANG fast. Especially since rooms you haven't been (i.e. that are full of monsters and such) aren't possible options.
    Also, what about demons you don't meet in a dungeon?

    To sum up, your "dimension door away and wait for their buffs to run out!" strategy doesn't work. They're going to come looking for you. If it's an evil wizard or cleric, he could even summon that bearded devil and send it teleporting around!
    You'll probably have them lose their rounds/level buffs... but your party will lose theirs, too.
    All that, and it's just once/day. And SOMEHOW, this is a completely reliable strategy that parties should use all the time? What a joke.

    Not to mention how freaking dull it'd make games of D&D.

    I love how you compare completely different things. One was a scenario I set up to show how it is theoretically possible for a level 20 fighter to kill a balor which was denied by Bears with Lasers to be even possible. And I even did it in one round. And it was not even an empty plain, but an enemy camp of an evil army laying siege to the city of the fighter, with the balor in charge of the army and arrogantly standing among his troops several hundred feet away.
    Why would a balor be in charge of an army? That's not what they do. Why would it be in plain view of the city's wizards? If it's surrounded by subordinates, how do you get that close?

    Point is, if you have to have a surprise round and initiative--it doesn't really matter what you're doing.

    For the escape thing not to work, you actually NEED an empty plane, which was not even assumed in the other scenario.

    Please do not do these comparsions out of the blue, making up things I never said.

    - Giacomo
    No, you don't need an empty plain. You just need somewhere without tons of nooks and crannies. Even if you have a keep with two floors or something, a group of enemies can search it in short order... that's non-teleporting enemies. The demons just go pop, pop, pop, pop, there they are!
    Last edited by Reel On, Love; 2008-03-29 at 06:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebo_ View Post
    Text is an awful medium to communicate sarcasm. Are you actually being sarcastic here? I can't tell.
    Well, several posters accused be to "never have played any D&D" in order to show that they thought some particular points of mine were particularly unbelievable to them.
    When I then agree with them to that, how can you even think that is serious? After 30 pages of this thread alone? After I mentioned several times as you well know my gaming experience, giving concrete examples.
    Don't play it too naive here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebo_ View Post
    Ro'L has been making a lot of replies recently that you have ignored. Whether it was by accident or not, you should go back and reply to them, he's made some very good points.
    Oh, most I already replied to. Here's another larger chunk:

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    Are "difficult to carry around"? No, they're not! You just strap'em to your back like the fighter does with his normal 4 weapons! If you don't like that, because dragging around multiple/big weapons is kinda goofy, put them in the Bag of Holding. It's just a move action to get'em out.
    Strap to back of a medium humanoid a colossal size weapon? And have that one enchanted for just that mins/day use? And you tell me the eversmoking bottle or fleeing from combat to return with force are "impractical". Wow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    Ah, yes, the Divine Power that you're using every fight, but refuse to accept you might need more than a single wand for. Once it's up, the monk still isn't ahead. He has lower STR--you know how your example monk never has any stat above 14?
    Wrong posting does not good arguing make. Seriously- how many times do I have to write it:
    Monk, 15/16th level, starting STR 14, gets 2 stat gains on STR, gets enlarge effect, gets +6 from divine power, not STR is at 24. That is enough for most purposes. Meanwhile, the fighter has to get higher DEX to get improved grapple which the monk can take as a bonus feat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    Fighters/barbs start with at least 16 STR. Half-orc or skipping INT can make that 18.
    And then their skill department is almost nil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    Then there's Weapon Focus, GWF, WS, GWS, which core fighters have nothing better to do than take.
    WF does not modify the grapple check. And it would be absolutely futile forthe fighter to sink 6 feats into fighting unarmed and still being outdamaged by the monk eventually.
    Concerning the weapon of choice- I guess with all that, eventually, the fighter would get on par with the monk damage output (remember the monk has 3 more attacks at 16th level when using divine power!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    Oh, and let's not forget the 1.5x STR multiplier.
    Not applicable in a grapple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    He doesn't actually do more damage. he has a bigger base damage die. Very different.
    ?Where is the difference?
    6d8 + STR, 7 attacks
    or
    3d6 + higher STR (with 1.5, power attacking for WF/GWF), 4 attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    DR is ABSOLUTELY a big issue. That's 5 to 15 damage off of every attack (which hurts the monk more than others, incidentally).
    But I mentioned the ways to overcome them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    You CAN'T get low-level spells all the time.
    You can. That's why they are low-level spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    Material DR? No spells for that.
    But items. Like silver sheen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    Align Weapon? Oh, so your monk has a wand of Align Weapon, too? Or he's storing it instead of Divine Power?
    Come on, Reel on, Love, what is this? 4.500 for 50 uses at high levels? Where is the problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    Somehow, you never seem to account for this. It's easy to say "get a wand to do it". It's not easy to actually get a wand for everything and use it all the time.
    It is. Check the costs and availability of items, even abstracting from the partial charge issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    Wow, Giacomo. Your answer to EVERYTHING is "add more wands". WHEN ARE YOU USING THEM ALL? How are you affording them all?
    Just read my reply to Solo's alleged "win" spells. You'll hardly notice any wand there. So stop please distorting what I say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    God, what happens if some demons jump you, teleporting in? Do you spend four rounds fiddling with wands of Divine Power, Enlarge Person, Align Weapon, and apparently Blink or Mirror Image or something too?
    You seem to forget that most of these things are offensive in nature. A demon jumping the monk would need to win initiative (the teleport is in the surprise round), get through his good flat-footed AC, get through his saves for his spc attacks. Let us say, until (a well-worded) contingency is around, the monk has a far better chance to survive a demon jumping on him than, say, a sorcerer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    It is HI-LARIOUS, the way you absolutely refuse to accept that your monk will ever have a fight start without getting the time to put any buffs he wants up. Meanwhile, the rest of us play actual D&D, where buff time is rare--why do you think clerics all take Quicken? Why would they bother Quickening things if the party could see every fight coming?
    OK, assuming you normally play the game without buff round. Let us see who gets most problems...er...the casters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    Has this REALLY happened in your games? *WHY* didn't the enemies *CHASE* you?
    Chasing someone who dimension doors away?
    And if the monk hides, yes - the enemy can chase him, but they may not notice him (there are not that many creatures or opponents with high spot checks). I never said that it is a 100% winning strategy, it is simply a good strategy when continuing to fight is disadvantageous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    The monk' Dim-Door is once/day. So what do you do during your second fight?
    What if your comrades don't want to run away all the time?
    Sigh. Not all the time. Only when it is necessary. Same for the dim door effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    BTW, your DDoor CL is HALF your monk level. So when you get it, you cast it at a CL of 6. You can go 740 feet and bring 2 people.
    That's what I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    Lots of things can cover 740 feet in a run action or two.
    Yes, on a flat plain you so like. Realistically, though, 740ft will take much longer to cover when you do not know exactly where to search or to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    The wizard comparison is where you again show your total bias and the way you don't think thins through. The wizard doesn't use Dimension Door to go away and wait out the enemy's buffs--he uses it to get out of grapples, to not get full attacked, etc.
    OK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    Maybe you've never played with a rogue, but what they DON'T do is spend two round moving away and hiding, then moving back in, then moving away, etc, because that would mean they're barely contributing anything.
    During fights, rogues tend to flank a lot. They don't tend to move away, hide, then the next round move back and get a single attack.
    And that's assuming there's somewhere to hide. Not always the case.
    The enemies just keep fighting the rest of your party.
    And if you managed to D-Door everyone away, they chase you.
    Yes, flanking would be infinitely better. Only not in the situation I described, where the group (or the monk if alone) is at a disadvantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    Seriously, your reason for why enemies can't wait out YOUR wand buffs is that you'll chase them, right? Why can't enemies do the same thing to your party?
    They can. It's called suspense in adventures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    Imagine that your monk is fighting a demon. Easy, right? Except that he sees you glowing with divine power, Enlarged, etc, and teleports away! Then two minutes later he comes back. What do you do? Spend more wand charges, this time as he's attacking?
    That would be a good tactics for the demon to use. Knowing that, the monk would use it only to 1) chase away the demon for a short while to make that demon "wait out the buffs" in order to be able to hide himself as well/heal/ambush. 2) when he believes he can take down the demon in one go before it is able to escape and come back again.
    This is actually what I'd call the basics of designing an intelligent enemy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    Of course, demons don't act like that--they attack. Because acting like that would make all demon encounters 100% lame. "I hit it!" "It teleports away.
    Why should it do that if it thinks it is winning?
    Why shouldn't it do that if it thinks it is losing?
    Playing it stupid, THAT would actually be lame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    Oh, and since this is Giacomo World, it comes back healed, since it used Diplomacy to persuade an evil cleric to give it spellcasting services for free."
    Boy, trading one hit a minute sure is fun.
    Well, apparently in Reel on, Love's world the demons just pop up without some backstory.
    But it's better, for instance, to employ them with a background where a BBEG apparently sent them/employed them for a reason and may have an interest to heal him to send him back strengthened (no diplomacy check needed here).

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    But if "waiting out buffs" is a viable strategy, it can happen to you.
    And your monk depends ENTIRELY on several short-term buffs. (Note how other characters don't. The cleric buffs in *one combat round*; the wizard's important buffs are long-term and he drops one short-term one at the start, at most. The barbarian can just charge in and fight.)
    The monk does not "depend entirely" on short-term buffs. Not more than others.
    The barbarian receives a dearly needed spell resistance/protection from spells buff, while the monk uses his divine power.
    And who is going to wait out a divine power that you need a detect magic with a standard action to discern in the first place? Being hit by the monk in a more powerful way does not suggest to an enemy that there is anything to "wait out" at all. But a wizard turning invisible is.
    And vs those enemies you have powerful spells that could escape his grapple, guess what the can monk do? AMF!

    But most importantly: the teleport-at-will creatures are not that often around. And the monk has the highest movement. So it is more difficult to "wait out buffs" against him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    What's ridiculous is that you can't always flee. The Wizard can teleport your party out, maybe--you know why? Because teleport goes *whereever you want*, not 800 feet away. He can teleport you to the middle of the desert where his Magnificent Mansion is still up, then teleport you back.
    And he can't do that every fight. That's a contingency. It's a "whoops, we're all gonna die" move, not a "oh, the enemy has a couple spells on them" move.
    800ft or 100s of kilometres make no difference. Actually, the 800ft is better for being able to faster engage the enemy again with mundane methods.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    You come back. There's twice as many enemies, they got reinforcements.
    A possibility. Then it's all of sudden a higher CR encounter. But you can have a better chance of winning THAT with surprise on your side.
    You come back. The enemies aren't there. So much for beating them up.
    Then you can continue to do what you intended to do in the first place. And if you intended to beat them up, well then do research where they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    You come back. The bad guys have killed their prisoners, burned down the building, sacked the town, completed the evil ritual, whatever.
    And, what would happen 90% of the time... you dimension door away. A few rounds later, the enemies come charging up, still buffed.
    Hmmm. Sounds like that is a problem for all.
    The point is:
    If the encounter is going against you (as in: you'll likely lose!), then it is an ADVANTAGE to be able to flee and come back later, even if the enemy has doubled, disappeared or killed prisoners, because if you would not have fled, then all of this would have happened ONTOP of your own deaths. Great.

    Come on Reel On, Love. This is bascis of tactics. You cannot continue to deny this. If you do, it makes no more sense to discuss it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    But, fine, you Abundant Step your whole party (three other people? You must be a level 18 monk) away.
    So what do you do next fight?
    Use item. Hide. And....why should exactly ALL fights go wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    How do you flee from the teleport-at-will, high-move-speed outsider, exactly?
    The one that acts before you do (gated creatures act on the same turn they're gated in on), and has long-range spells or SLAs, to boot?
    Well, the monk apparently with the highest move has the best possibility to move away. And you so far failed to answer me this crucial question:
    How is a teleport-at-will outsider going to find a monk once he has dim doored away?

    - Giacomo

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    Default Re: Monks... any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo View Post
    You seem to forget that most of these things are offensive in nature. A demon jumping the monk would need to win initiative (the teleport is in the surprise round), get through his good flat-footed AC, get through his saves for his spc attacks. Let us say, until (a well-worded) contingency is around, the monk has a far better chance to survive a demon jumping on him than, say, a sorcerer.
    - Giacomo
    A Sorcerer would just plane shift out.
    Or some equivelant.

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