epic spellcasting for martial initiators: brainstorm

[Stycotl]

that didn't work...
thanks for posting the correct link.

[Stycotl]

ok, before we actually get to statting up traits and stuff, let's make a list of the traits that we don't want to leave to ad hoc. the rest can be decided on an ad hoc, case-by-case basis.

Traits to be formulated:
# of damage dice
type of damage dice
damage penalties/bonuses
damage types (for strange ones; vile, coldfire, dessicating, etc)
hit prob penalties/bonuses
touch attacks
ranged attack potential
save DC (different than save penalties/bonuses)
ability score modifications
ability damage/drain/burn
negative levels
types of bonuses/penalties
conditions (stunned, checked, staggered, etc)
repeated damage
repeated effects
movement penalties/bonuses
ac bonuses/penalties
save penalties/bonuses
skill penalties/bonuses
initiative penalties/bonuses
utilization of special attacks/actions (charge, sunder, disarm, etc)
cover/concealment
granting/restricting/denying actions
granting/restricting/denying reach
number of actions/attacks affected
overcoming/granting dr
overcoming/granting sr
overcoming/granting hardness
overcoming/granting resistances
overcoming/granting immunities
healing

?

some of these will overlap, like conditions and bonuses/penalties, or conditions/restricting actions, etc. so we should check them as we go to make sure that they mesh.

EDIT: ad hoc bin:
feat duplication
?

what am i missing?

[Arbitrarity]

How about number of affected attacks? How does that scale?

Things like Inferno Blade + Time Stands Still are already potent. Full attack of Enervating Strikes, or Strikes of Perfect Clarity would need serious balancing, unless you just ignore full attack strikes. As there aren't very many.

[Stycotl]

How about number of affected attacks? How does that scale?

Things like Inferno Blade + Time Stands Still are already potent. Full attack of Enervating Strikes, or Strikes of Perfect Clarity would need serious balancing, unless you just ignore full attack strikes. As there aren't very many.

yeah, i'm not sure how to handle that one. especially since some boosts cover one entire round. so they affect multiple attacks as well (potentially).

i'll put it up there for now. if it proves problematic, we'll toss it in the ad hoc bin.

[Stycotl]

edited the list of traits to be formulated in post #32, and added the ad hoc bin.

i'm off to bed. good night, all.

[Stycotl]

ought to specify that the list i am creating in post #32 is still malleable. there will be plenty that will be taken off of the list and thrown into the ad hoc bin, and plenty that i missed that will be added to the soon-to-be traits of the epic maneuvers.

[Stycotl]

just so you guys know, this didn't just fall off of the planet. it is currently being developed.

i would like to know how people think that stances would best be handled.

i have a couple of ideas off of the top of my head. so far, normal maneuvers will work similarly to how epic spells do now, 1 per 10 ranks in martial lore per day. similar factor/mitigating factor build, though both factors/mitigating factors are going to be capped depending on levels. so, for stances:

a) epic stances are similar to normal epic maneuvers, but are bought separately, and character can initiate 1 stance/day/20 martial lore ranks

b) epic stances are really more of a boost, an epic maneuver that can only affect nonepic stances from the same discipline. they would be bought normally, right alongside, and at the same price as normal epic maneuvers.

c) all maneuvers are split up into their respective types, boost, strike, counter, stance, and so on. stance would just be a normal epic maneuver that has a longer duration and a few other defining quirks. i was thinking of a 24-hr duration 'spell' effect standard for stances. other than that, they would be bought as a normal epic maneuver.

d) had a few other ideas, but can't remember any of them. if any of you have any ideas, good or not, let me know. i think b is a crappy idea mostly cuz i don't think it would mesh well. but if anyone has insights, it could make it easier than the others. i was curious about a, but i think that i like c overall.

aaron out.

[Stycotl]

yay! i'm an ogre today. as soon as that potion wears off though, i shrink back to a normal, scrawny human being...

[arkanis]

If the Epic Spellcasting feat and rules were eliminated and higher level spell slots and spells per day just increased on the same calculation they always did.

One could just convert/make epic spells like normal spells only stronger or even more easy just create a new system which allows spells to continually be cast as higher level spells.

For example, a fireball could be made more powerful by casting it with a higher level spell slot.

Since a fireball normally is a 3rd level spell, every 4 levels higher all its numerical values double.
So a 7th level Fireball would do 2d6 fire damage per caster level (max 30d6), with a range of 800ft. + 80ft. caster level and radius of 40ft. and DC of 17 + ability modifier.
An 11th level Fireball would do 3d6 fire damage per caster level (max 45d6) with a range of 1200ft. + 120ft. per caster level and radius of 60ft. and DC of 21 + ability modifier.
A 15th level Fireball would do 4d6 fire damage per caster level (max 60d6) with a range of 1600ft. + 160ft. per caster level and radius of 80ft. and DC of 25 + ability modifier.
A 19th level Fireball would do 5d6 fire damage per caster level (max 75d6) with a range of 2000ft. + 200ft. per caster level and radius of 100ft. and DC of 29 + ability modifier.

A Wish spell could also be improved if it were casted as a 19th level spell and recreate the effects of any other spell below 19th level or effects twice as good as a normal wish spell or 29th level and create effects three times as good as a normal wish spell.

Nearly any spell can be improved by this calculation.

For every (Spell level + 1) the spell is cast higher than its original level, all numerical values are increased by a multiplier of (1 + # of times it is increased this way) except the per # caster levels and d#.

[Stycotl]

that could be interesting. for some maneuvers i don't think that it would work so cleanly. i am not yet sure if the epic system already in place will work, but i'm intent on finding out.

[zugschef]

i've been working on a system for epic maneuvers myself. my dm and me came up with some basics:

Epic Blade Magic [EPIC]
Prerequisites: 24 ranks in Martial Lore, 24 ranks in one discipline's key skill, initiator level 17 (for this discipline)
Benefit: You may develop and initiate epic maneuvers as detailed below. You gain 1 epic maneuver readied for every 10 ranks in martial lore. You may recover epic maneuvers ranks/10 in its key skill times per day.

Seeds: every non-epic maneuver is a seed. To use a seed for the research of an epic maneuver you must know this particular non-epic maneuver, have 24 ranks in its discipline's key skill and initiator level 17 for its discipline.
Resource Cost: same as for epic spells.
Development Time: same as for epic spells.
XP Cost: same as for epic spells.
Adding Seed DCs: same as for epic spells.
Combining Initiation Actions: if you combine two seeds, the initiation action automatically becomes as long as the longest of one of the seeds used. The final epic maneuver determines when each seed is supposed to go in effect.
Combining Range, Targets, Area, and Effect: same as for epic spells.
Combining Durations: same as for epic spells.
Saving Throws: same as for epic spells.

the factors are a very sensitive issue. do you allow an increase of duration? do you allow to reduce the initation action (think of counters)? what about range, target and area?

stances: i suggest giving an epic stance known for every 20 ranks in martial lore. to determine an epic stance's dc, i'd use the permanency factor for epic spells as a guideline. since a stance is in effect as long as you are conscious, it's nearly a permanent effect. thus, i propose multiplying the dc by 4, maybe 3, unless your seed is a stance itself (if you combine assassin's stance+cloak of deception you only need to multiply the dc of cloak of deception and then add the dc of assassin's stance). i also think that epic stances should not interfere with normal stances, meaning you can use a normal and an epic stance simultaneously.

[Stycotl]

it has been a few weeks since i last touched it, but my latest incarnation has thrown stances in as with the rest of the maneuvers--but they have a full-encounter duration. that way, they can be part of the same per-day usage as the rest of the maneuvers.

your system looks good. it still looks raw though; you'll have to flesh it out so that we can see how damage is run, etc.

eventually i'll get mine into the finished rough draft form and post it on the boards.

good luck.

aaron out.