Elves and racial weapons

[asphen fox]

I've noticed that for some stupid reason, Elves aren't proficient with [I]their[I] own weapons. Gnomes, Dwarves and Raptorans are proficient with their racial weapons but what about Elves? Does anyone even bother to houserule that they too are proficient with their weapons?

*sorry... I just love elves too much

[RTGoodman]

What racial weapons? Like the Elven Courtblade and stuff like that from Races of the Wild (and maybe Complete something-or-other)?

If you're talking about the stuff in the PHB, Elves are automatically proficient with bows, longsword, and rapier, regardless of class. Gnomes and Dwarves, on the other hand, don't have any automatic proficiency (as far as I remember) - they just treat Gnome Hooked Hammers or Dwarven War-axes and Urgroshes as martial weapons, which is much worse a deal. An Elf Wizard can still swing a longsword, but a Dwarf Wizard still can't use his racial weapons because he doesn't have any proficiency with martial weapons.

If you're talking about the stuff from RotW, I'd say it's probably because the weapons aren't just exotic because they're rare, but because they're really good and deserve to always be exotic weapons. Two-handed, high damage, good crit range, and finessable? Yes, please!

EDIT: Also, I believe there is a feat in Races of Stone that lets you treat all racial weapons as martial (rather than exotic) weapons. Improved Weapon Familiarity, I believe it's called.

[MeklorIlavator]

If someone wants to use those weapons as martial(like the dwarf), I'd make them give up their other proficiencies first(though this might no be a completely fair trade).
That feat is also in the Compete Warrior, though I believe that you must be proficient in at least one weapon from the list first.

[asphen fox]

Yup I'm talking about those stuff with the word Elven in them. I'm not quite sure but would giving up your racial proficiencies be enough to give them proficiencies to those elven weapons? If not, what could they give up for auto proficiencies on those weapons?

[Reel On, Love]

Hunh. Surprisingly, I really like the idea of being able to trade in rapier/longsword/bow proficiency in for "Elven ____blade as a martial weapon" proficiency.

I like it because it means that, quite naturally, Fighter types (who get bow, sword, etc naturally) will trade in their proficiencies to pick up the more exotic ones, while, say, Wizards will keep the normal ones so they can use a bow at low levels.

Why is this good? Because flavor-wise, it means that all elves get basic training with sword and bow, while the warriors get more advanced training with the more exclusive set of weapons, which works well.

[asphen fox]

I totally agree with you. I mean, it's awesome right? And it all fits into place, ne?

[loopy]

Yup I'm talking about those stuff with the word Elven in them. I'm not quite sure but would giving up your racial proficiencies be enough to give them proficiencies to those elven weapons? If not, what could they give up for auto proficiencies on those weapons?

To be fair, I know plenty of Chinese people who aren't proficient in the Chinese Dao. I'd imagine it works on the same principle. :P

[asphen fox]

This is D&D... We're talking about warriors here... Not just plain old people, ne?

[Ascension]

To be fair, I know plenty of Chinese people who aren't proficient in the Chinese Dao. I'd imagine it works on the same principle. :P

To be fairer, they don't live in a fantasy society under constant threat of attack by orcs who want their god's eye back.

[Kizara]

Hunh. Surprisingly, I really like the idea of being able to trade in rapier/longsword/bow proficiency in for "Elven ____blade as a martial weapon" proficiency.

I like it because it means that, quite naturally, Fighter types (who get bow, sword, etc naturally) will trade in their proficiencies to pick up the more exotic ones, while, say, Wizards will keep the normal ones so they can use a bow at low levels.

Why is this good? Because flavor-wise, it means that all elves get basic training with sword and bow, while the warriors get more advanced training with the more exclusive set of weapons, which works well.

So can my elf trade his normal proficiencies for free proficiency with a spiked chain?

What if I call it an Elven Spiked Chain? It is finessable after all.

What about goliaths? Can they have auto-prof with their greathammers? (3d6/x4)

There's a pretty serious balance issue, the courtblade is really strong. Imagine all the power of a greatsword, but with a scimitar threat range. Yep. Oh, and it's finessable. Just because.

[Reel On, Love]

So can my elf trade his normal proficiencies for free proficiency with a spiked chain?

What if I call it an Elven Spiked Chain? It is finessable after all.

What about goliaths? Can they have auto-prof with their greathammers? (3d6/x4)

There's a pretty serious balance issue, the courtblade is really strong. Imagine all the power of a greatsword, but with a scimitar threat range. Yep. Oh, and it's finessable. Just because.

No, not with a spiked chain. Only the Elven lightblade, thinblade, and courtblade, because those are the weapons in question (like the Gnome Hooked Hammer and the Dwarven Waraxe).

It's not a serious balance issue. The courtblade isn't really strong. Compare it to the 2d4, 18-20 falchion. 2d4 is 5 average damage. 1d10 (Courtblade) is... 5.5 average damage. Wooo. It's also finesseable... but characters using Weapon Finesse are inferior to characters using their Strength by default, anyway, and using a two-handed weapon tends to be a disadvantage for'em anyway.

It's honestly not a big deal. As is, all three elven Xblades aren't worth one feat (Improved Weapon Familiarity) when put together.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency is a crappy feat at the *best* of times. You could make *all* exotic weapons Martial and the game wouldn't bat an eye. Calling it a "serious balance issue" even compared to, say, the disparity of TWF and THF, the crappiness of shields, the caster/non-caster divide... c'mon, man.

[kpenguin]

Well, what about the Orc Double-Axe? Should orcs get proficiency with them for free?

Actually, considering how sparse and flavorless the orc racial traits are, I might think about adding that in.

[Reel On, Love]

Well, what about the Orc Double-Axe? Should orcs get proficiency with them for free?

Actually, considering how sparse and flavorless the orc racial traits are, I might think about adding that in.

Making the Orc Double Axe a Martial weapon for orcs and half-orcs would actually make them worse, because it might encourage some of them to USE one.

[Kizara]

No, not with a spiked chain. Only the Elven lightblade, thinblade, and courtblade, because those are the weapons in question (like the Gnome Hooked Hammer and the Dwarven Waraxe).

It's not a serious balance issue. The courtblade isn't really strong. Compare it to the 2d4, 18-20 falchion. 2d4 is 5 average damage. 1d10 (Courtblade) is... 5.5 average damage. Wooo. It's also finesseable... but characters using Weapon Finesse are inferior to characters using their Strength by default, anyway, and using a two-handed weapon tends to be a disadvantage for'em anyway.

It's honestly not a big deal. As is, all three elven Xblades aren't worth one feat (Improved Weapon Familiarity) when put together.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency is a crappy feat at the *best* of times. You could make *all* exotic weapons Martial and the game wouldn't bat an eye. Calling it a "serious balance issue" even compared to, say, the disparity of TWF and THF, the crappiness of shields, the caster/non-caster divide... c'mon, man.

My first 'question' was to make a point, I understand the issue.

I feel that it would be short-sighted to just make a blanket ruling that all races essentially get Improved Weapon Familiarity for free, as those weapons are generally better then their counterparts.

That being said, non-human races are generally at least mildly shafted, so this, while not as irrelivant as you seem to protray, might be a beneficial shift.

As for disparities in the game, I certinally agree with you, and I have made other changes in my game to attempt to improve the situation.

[Eldariel]

I personally like to just give all races free 'Improved Weapon Familiarity', since the only reason WoTC didn't is because they can't start to change PHB-races in splatbooks (or rather don't realize how good Humans are compared to the next and how trivial those proficiencies would be). Note that Elven Proficiencies are of no use to characters who get free Martial Weapon Proficiencies already, so it's just fair towards Elven Fighters and the like (which are supposed to be deadly, but are really lackluster in D&D) that their extensive training goes beyond that of the Wizards and Bards giving them proficiencies in the Elven Exotic Weapons.

Basically, Martial Weapon Proficiency and Treat Exotic as Martial don't overlap to any degree, so it really does nothing for a race to have both; such weapons give a slight powerboost to a bunch of classes that are lacking it right now. Also, everything that makes non-Human races just a bit stronger is good for the game just because Humans pretty much own the house right now.


It's neither here nor now, but I think the game works much better when making Humans the guideline; Strongheart Halfling, Whisper Gnome, Lesser Tiefling and Lesser Aasimar seem to be on approximately the right powerlevel (and Elves, but that's because there're so many Elven subraces that you'll always find one that has enough bonuses to relevant skills to work out). This change helps, however little (generally the shift is 1 point of damage, relevant early on and totally trivial in the midlevels), to shift the balance towards the races with racial exotic weapons.

[asphen fox]

There you go! All I was thinking though was that they could've at least placed a side note on the (insert race) (insert weapon type) weapons that the races who have their name on the weapon can treat it as a martial weapon. It's just being lazy.

[Ashes]

I remember reading somewhere, I think it was Complete Warrior, that any race had familiarity with any weapon that had their race's name in it. Problem solved.

[Eldariel]

I remember reading somewhere, I think it was Complete Warrior, that any race had familiarity with any weapon that had their race's name in it. Problem solved.

That's just the feat we're talking about, Improved Weapon Familiarity. Normally they don't; that's why we want to award the feat for free to all races.

[Keld Denar]

Ok, go to Races of Stone. Look for the Dwarven Warpike. Take a good, hard look at it.

2d6 base damage
Reach
Tripping Weapon
Set for a Charge
x3 critical

If you made that change, not a single dwarf with a level of any class that grants martial weapon proficiency would ever take anything but that. Its probably one of the strongest 2handed melee weapons printed.

Also, I've come up for some really incredible uses for double weapon such as the orc double axe, and have even posted them here. Take a look at the class Exotic Weapon Master in CW and look at the Flurry of Strikes ability. Now, realize that nowhere in that ability does it say you have to TWF with the double weapon to gain the benefits of Flurry of Strikes. Basically, an extra 2handed power attack at full BAB for a meer -2 penalty, which by the time you get it (around level 7-8) is almost irrelevant.

[Thinker]

Ok, go to Races of Stone. Look for the Dwarven Warpike. Take a good, hard look at it.

2d6 base damage
Reach
Tripping Weapon
Set for a Charge
x3 critical

If you made that change, not a single dwarf with a level of any class that grants martial weapon proficiency would ever take anything but that. Its probably one of the strongest 2handed melee weapons printed.

Compare it to a Guisarme.
2d6 (7) v 2d4 (5)
Reach v Reach
Trip v Trip
Set v nothing
x3 v x3

So it does 2 more damage and has the worthless ability to be set against a charge. I don't think that is a big deal.

[Chronos]

Also, I've come up for some really incredible uses for double weapon such as the orc double axe, and have even posted them here. Take a look at the class Exotic Weapon Master in CW and look at the Flurry of Strikes ability.

Does weapon familiarity qualify one for Exotic Weapon Master, though? It says that that race treats the weapon as martial, not that it only treats the weapon as martial when it would be to the character's advantage. And as a martial weapon (for a character of that race), it wouldn't qualify for the PrC.

[Keld Denar]

I'd say it counts like a virtual feat, similiar to a rangers bonus feats. You don't actually have the feat, don't actually need to prequal for the feat, you can use it as a prereq for other feats, but for all intents and purposes, you have the feat. That seems to me like it follows the precidance and isn't that unbalancing in regard to power level...

[bosssmiley]

To be fair, I know plenty of Chinese people who aren't proficient in the Chinese Dao. I'd imagine it works on the same principle. :P

They're just telling you that to lull you into a false sense of security.

Given that an exotic weapon proficiency is nothing more than a waste of a perfectly good feat slot I'm happy to let players sub in racial exotic weapons for their default weapon proficiencies. You think it makes your character a little cooler? Why not, it's all good.
Exception: double weapons. They're all just minchkinish @rse!

[AslanCross]

This is D&D... We're talking about warriors here... Not just plain old people, ne?

Actually, look at it this way. Dwarves and gnomes have weapon familiarity. They are not automatically proficient with the Dwarven Waraxe and the Gnome Hooked Hammer. They do automatically receive the proficiencies as Martial Proficiencies if they're fighters (or any class that gets Martial profs).

Elves, no matter what their class is, are proficient in the shortbow, longbow, rapier, and longsword. I find that a pretty good tradeoff, honestly. Therefore, an elf commoner would be proficient with the longsword, while a human commoner wouldn't be.

Though yes, I know it would be cooler to be proficient in the Elven blades. Just swap out the appropriate weapons for the elven blades. Of course, you have to clear this with your DM.

[Collin152]

Therefore, an elf commoner would be proficient with the longsword, while a human commoner wouldn't be.

I'm a genius: Elven armies.
Ignoring the fact that elves are never commoners. Seriously.

[AslanCross]

I'm a genius: Elven armies.
Ignoring the fact that elves are never commoners. Seriously.

...I think that'd come from the fact that they have a relatively low birth rate and at the very least don't breed like humans do. They need everyone in society to do something apart from growing or selling food, I guess.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

I have nothing productive to add to what's already been said, though I would like the take the time to proclaim that the banter in this thread makes me so happy to be a DnD nerd. If I weren't, lines like: "Making the Orc Double Axe a Martial weapon for orcs and half-orcs would actually make them worse, because it might encourage some of them to USE one." wouldn't make any sense, and the that thought is completely unbearable.

[Collin152]

...I think that'd come from the fact that they have a relatively low birth rate and at the very least don't breed like humans do. They need everyone in society to do something apart from growing or selling food, I guess.

I don't care much for that reason for non-elven-overthrown worlds.
I prefer civil-war and self-genocide.

[asphen fox]

Though yes, I know it would be cooler to be proficient in the Elven blades. Just swap out the appropriate weapons for the elven blades. Of course, you have to clear this with your DM.

Already did... I told him to check Complete Warrior again for the weapon familiarity thing and he apparently didn't because he said that Elves get it too according to the book. After my closer inspection of the pages.... Elves don't even get it. I asked him again if it's final... He said Yes. I totally love his lazy attitude at times. :)) It gives my character a more Elven feel.

[Arbitrarity]

Double weapons are awful :/. I like the IH solution: Both sides are treated as if they were wielded in two hands.