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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Rainbow Servant...how good?

    I've been browsing through Complete Divine, and the Rainbow Servant, or Savant, or something like that, anyway, it caught my eye.

    It's a prestige class for arcane casters, where, over ten levels, you get a few little things here and there, including, eventually, the ability to add all cleric spells to your spell list (you'd still need to learn them normally for your class though).

    The downside? You loose 4 caster levels over the 10 levels of the prestige class.

    But here's what I was thinking, do a mix with complete arcane...the warmage specifically, who automatically knows every spell on the warmage list, and casts them spontaneously. However, his spells are all combat orientated (except light). But, if he takes the path of the Radiant (Rainbow?) Savant (Servant?), he, at level 10 (of the prestige class), probably about level 15/16ish total, knows all his spells, and all the cleric spells, which would include the domains (I assume), which also covers a bunch of other wizard/sorcerer spells, and he casts these all spontaneously. A caster with acess to all cleric spells, almost all blasty wiz/sorc spells, and a bunch of non-blasty w/s spells. All for the cost of 4 caster levels.

    Would it work like that? Is it worth it? What do you think, People of the Playground?
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    Thumbs down Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    The cleric spell list does not include the domains; domain spells are explicitly added to the list of the individual clerics that take them.
    4 lost caster levels is a bit too much... all you get in the end is a cleric that does not need to prepare spells but:
    • has low BAB/HP
    • suffers ASF from armor
    • cannot turn undead
    • IS 2 FULL SPELL LEVELS BEHIND!!!

    so you'll have weak spells, a weak DC and are in a bad position for both blasting, save or die and buffing yourself into a tank; add to this that the skill points are not going to be great and you have some guy who is good at... nothing.
    I'd just play a Cleric.
    Last edited by Rad; 2008-03-21 at 06:55 AM.
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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    Actually, you get full casting. Read the text. In that case: overpowered. At level 10 getting the entire cleric spell list=winsome.

    And domains are not a part of the cleric spell list. You do however gain a couple domains as part of the class (good and law?).
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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    The cleric spell list does not include the domains; domain spells are explicitly added to the list of the individual clerics that take them.
    4 lost caster levels is a bit too much... all you get in the end is a cleric that does not need to prepare spells but:
    • has low BAB/HP
    • suffers ASF from armor
    • cannot turn undead
    • IS 2 FULL SPELL LEVELS BEHIND!!!

    so you'll have weak spells, a weak DC and are in a bad position for both blasting, save or die and buffing yourself into a tank; add to this that the skill points are not going to be great and you have some guy who is good at... nothing.
    I'd just play a Cleric.
    not entirely true, the RS gets a certain domain every time that he loses a +1 to existing class of spellcasting.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    If you want to be a Rainbow Servant, Warmage is probably the best class to do it with. Practised Spellcaster will let you keep up your CL.

    It's still not a great choice though. The big problem is that you won't actually get access to those Cleric spells until level 10 of the prestige class, which means level 16 overall. The game may well be over by then, and up to that point you'll be crippling yourself by your lost caster levels.

    But yes, if you can somehow claw your way up to that point, you will get full spontaneous access to the entire cleric spell list, and the versatility that gives does kind of make it worth it - no matter what problem you run into, you can pull out some obscure cleric spell to deal with it. Trouble is, the full casters can just solve the problem by brute force by using their 8th- and 9th-level spells, which you don't get.

    Still, you can't say that being able to cast over a thousand spells spontaneously isn't fun.

    - Saph
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and the final book in the series, Risen, is out as of December 2021. For updates, check my blog!

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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    Actually, this is totally incorrect. The Rainbow Servant gives you cleric spell ACCESS, not cleric spells. You can add them to you spellbook as a wizard, add them to spells known as a sorcerer using spells known slots, or gain them via eclectic learning as a warmage. You don't get all the cleric spells added to your list, which is a real shame.

    The major downside to this class is the lost 4 caster levels- a mystic theurge would actually be doing better here, and that's pretty sad. Those 4 lost caster levels are only by the table, though. If you read the text it tells you that you gain spellcasting at every level, and there hasn't been an errata made for it yet.

    By WotC's ruling, text trumps table, so *technically* it's a full spellcasting class. Good luck trying to run that by a DM.

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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xeo_Boy View Post
    By WotC's ruling, text trumps table, so *technically* it's a full spellcasting class. Good luck trying to run that by a DM.
    Especially since, on page 20 of Complete Divine, the PrC is listed as 'moderate spellcasting' - ie not full spellcasting.

    Honestly, I think you're better off just asking the DM nicely if he can rule it to be full casting. Given that you're choosing to play a Warmage in the first place, he might be sympathetic.

    - Saph
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and the final book in the series, Risen, is out as of December 2021. For updates, check my blog!

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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    Especially since, on page 20 of Complete Divine, the PrC is listed as 'moderate spellcasting' - ie not full spellcasting.
    How exactly does that trump the text in the PrC description?

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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    How exactly does that trump the text in the PrC description?
    *shrug* You can try and convince your DM to ignore both that and the table if you like, but in my experience DMs usually react better to being asked nicely than to being argued at. Hence my advice.

    - Saph
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and the final book in the series, Risen, is out as of December 2021. For updates, check my blog!

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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    I thought I'd read on another thread that this has been errata'd and that the table was right and the text is wrong.

    Losing 4 caster levels is borkage. Don't do it.

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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    There has been no errata on the Rainbow Servants text vs table debate.

    All foreign language versions of it has it as 6/10 spellcasting on both text and table, with the exception of one which had it as 10/10. It is commonly held to be a editing error and that it should be 6/10.

    ---

    An Illumian Warmage can enter into Rainbow Servant with Practiced Spellcaster, and 1 Flaw for Improved Sigil Krau. Thus he can get the 10th level ability at level 11.

    At level 11 he will have
    • ability to cast as a 7th level warmage thus 3rd level spells while a cleric would be casting 6th level spells, or a wizard 6th level spells.
    • access to all of the warmage spells
    • access to all the cleric spells spontaneously.
    • access to all the spells on the good, air, and law domains
    • any spell that isn't on the wizard/sorcerer list or bard list is cast as a divine spell, thus DMM cheese is possible.
    • at will detect evil, chaos, thoughts
    • can grow wings for up to 10 minutes per day.



    now would you rather play that form of warmage
    or a wizard
    or a cleric
    or a sorcerer with this spell selection.
    5th Sorcerer: Greater Blink, Moonbow, Teleport, Feeblemind
    4th Sorcerer: Enervation, Wings of Flurry, Orb of Acid, Greater Mirror Image
    3rd Sorcerer: Slow, Stinking Cloud, Fly, Ray of Exhaustion or Dizziness. He had haste until he swapped it out
    I won't even bother with 2nd and 1st, but let's just say that the warmage doesn't get Glitterdust or See Invisible or Ray of Enfeeblement and that Wings of Cover is absolutely cheesetastic.


    The sorcerer takes Heighten Spell, Empower Spell, Split Ray, and Twin Spell or Rapid Metamagic/Quicken Spell. There's even room for Sudden empower/maximize. He picks up Elemental Substitution, unless he waits for Archmage's Mastery of Elements. Maybe Chain Spell.

    http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=963854
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  12. - Top - End - #12
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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    Why is Warmage a better base class than Beguiler? Both get all the spells on their list, but Beguiler doesn't have to suck while he's waiting for the cleric access. Admittedly, it hurts to go from 6 skill points a level to 2, but better to have skilled and lost than never skilled at all.

    As for how overpowered this is, compare a high-level Rainbow Servant (with Warmage or Beguiler as the base), who can cast 8th-level spells, to a high-level straight cleric, who can cast 9th-level spells. Sure, the Rainbow Servant can spontaneously cast any cleric spell he wants of 8th level or lower, but so can the cleric, thanks to Miracle. Admittedly, the cleric can't do it nearly as many times per day as the Rainbow Servant, but realistically, how often will you need to? Usually, that one spell which you just absolutely must cast will be one that you anticipated needing and have therefore prepared. It's only for those times when the situation catches you by surprise that you need the spontaneity, and you can probably prepare enough Miracles to cover those situations. And the Miracle can also replicate 7th-level spells from any list whatsoever, and you can also prepare 9th-level cleric spells other than Miracle.

    In fact, it gets even worse when you realize when each class gets this ability. A warmage or beguiler doesn't get 8th-level spells until level 16, which (with RS's lost caster levels) doesn't come until character level 20. But the cleric can cast Miracle at character level 17.
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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    so in sum rainbow servant stinks, unless paired with another class in gestalt so you don't see caster level loss.

    Now this build will rock in gestalt with these three houserules

    1) One is that Rainbow Servant can be other alingments instead representing freezing cold marshes controlled by witches instead of good casting rainforest drealers. Or allow to hexblades to be lawful good.
    2) The other is that paladins can multiclass freely.
    3) Sanctified One of Kord works with Cold damage instead of fire.
    Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Sanctified One of Kord 1/
    Paladin of Tyranny 4/Hexblade 4/Warmage 4 during the levels you lose caster level through rainbow servant

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    1)Precocious Apprentice
    3)Eschew Materials
    6)Cold Casting
    9)Frozen Magic
    12)Cold Spell Specialization

    Lower the temperature, you add the cold descriptor to all your spells, adding +2 caster level and +2 damage dice if you lowered the temperature to under -20 F. (Which any divine spellcaster should be able to do)
    All your cold damage is divine damage bypassing resistance.
    Cast as a warmage and a cleric
    Cha to saves twice plus mettle
    Minus to your enemies saves and ac.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    I figured out how I'd use Rainbow Servant in gestalt not too long ago. The build kept the full Beguiler or Warmage casting, and at 16th level got its huge power jump with all cleric spells. However, even before that it wouldn't be markedly underpowered due to the Factotum levels. I chose to go with Beguiler since even though it and Factotum have a couple overlapping abilities, you only need Int, and several of their abilities mesh together really well. The Factotum gets up to level 16 abilities, so you don't miss out on Improved Cunning Defense. The basic progression looks like:

    Factotum//Beguiler
    Factotum//Beguiler
    Factotum//Beguiler
    Factotum//Beguiler
    Factotum//Beguiler
    Factotum//Beguiler
    Rainbow Serpent//Beguiler
    Rainbow Serpent//Factotum
    Rainbow Serpent//Factotum
    Rainbow Serpent//Beguiler
    Rainbow Serpent//Factotum
    Rainbow Serpent//Factotum
    Rainbow Serpent//Beguiler
    Rainbow Serpent//Factotum
    Rainbow Serpent//Factotum
    Rainbow Serpent//Beguiler
    Beguiler//Factotum
    Beguiler//Factotum
    Beguiler//Factotum
    Beguiler//Factotum

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Why is Warmage a better base class than Beguiler?
    Because Beguilers are a better class. :P It's the same reason that warmages take Arcane Disciple, while beguilers generally don't. When your spell list has as many great spells as the beguiler's does, it isn't worth going to the trouble of expanding it.

    It's true that a Beguiler/Rainbow Servant would be stronger . . . but if you're a beguiler, there's no reason for you to take Rainbow Servant in the first place. (Unless you really really like couatls.)

    - Saph
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and the final book in the series, Risen, is out as of December 2021. For updates, check my blog!

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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    So first of all we currently have:

    Rainbow/Radiant

    Servant/Savant/Serpent

    I'm sure from those combinations we could be talking about some other PrCs, let's cut the name game down a bit?

    Secondly, why does everyone talk about it as if it were a 6/10s casting class? Let's be honest here. If the DM rules that it is a 6/10ths class, no one in any D&D game anywhere is ever going to use it. If we accept that it is a 10/10 casting class, some people might use it.

    Same thing for the person talking about Warmage/Beguiler finicky spell list descriptions. Either Rainbow Servant isn't an option, or it allows you to use it's spells.

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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    Couldn't you just take Favored Soul if you want spontaneous Cleric casting?
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Couldn't you just take Favored Soul if you want spontaneous Cleric casting?
    No. The appeal of Rainbow Servant is that it lets you spontaneously cast ANY cleric spell if you're a warmage/beguiler. Favored Soul lets you pick cleric spells like a sorcerer, which is not nearly as good. Having all the highly situational spells whenever needed (Consecrate, for instance) is what we're aiming for.

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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronicled View Post
    I figured out how I'd use Rainbow Servant in gestalt not too long ago. The build kept the full Beguiler or Warmage casting, and at 16th level got its huge power jump with all cleric spells. However, even before that it wouldn't be markedly underpowered due to the Factotum levels. I chose to go with Beguiler since even though it and Factotum have a couple overlapping abilities, you only need Int, and several of their abilities mesh together really well. The Factotum gets up to level 16 abilities, so you don't miss out on Improved Cunning Defense. The basic progression looks like:

    Factotum//Beguiler
    Factotum//Beguiler
    Factotum//Beguiler
    Factotum//Beguiler
    Factotum//Beguiler
    Factotum//Beguiler
    Rainbow Serpent//Beguiler
    Rainbow Serpent//Factotum
    Rainbow Serpent//Factotum
    Rainbow Serpent//Beguiler
    Rainbow Serpent//Factotum
    Rainbow Serpent//Factotum
    Rainbow Serpent//Beguiler
    Rainbow Serpent//Factotum
    Rainbow Serpent//Factotum
    Rainbow Serpent//Beguiler
    Beguiler//Factotum
    Beguiler//Factotum
    Beguiler//Factotum
    Beguiler//Factotum
    Other than this appearing to involve brightly multicolored Lepidosauria, this build is brilliant.
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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    Secondly, why does everyone talk about it as if it were a 6/10s casting class?
    Because it's clear that there's a typo somewhere in the class, and it's clear where the typo is, so most DMs just accept the part that clearly isn't the typo, and ignore the part that clearly is?
    Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya View Post
    Other than this appearing to involve brightly multicolored Lepidosauria, this build is brilliant.


    I keep trying to add something witty, but the picture speaks for itself.

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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Because it's clear that there's a typo somewhere in the class, and it's clear where the typo is, so most DMs just accept the part that clearly isn't the typo, and ignore the part that clearly is?
    Or you could actually address my real point instead of taking it out of context.

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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    OK, so what's your real point? You asked why everyone assumes that it's a 6/10 class, and I answered you. If your real point was supposed to be that the class isn't worth it, then yes, everyone got that point long before your post.
    Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    OK, so what's your real point? You asked why everyone assumes that it's a 6/10 class, and I answered you. If your real point was supposed to be that the class isn't worth it, then yes, everyone got that point long before your post.
    Or my point could be that with two equally valid interpretations of the class, you should only address the one that is actually playable.

    Take Warhulk for example: If the table said +2 Enhancement bonus to Str and the text said whatever it says now, would you tell people, "Warhulk sucks, those bonuses don't stack with each other, they overlap, and you can replace the whole thing with an item that costs 4,000gp."

    Or maybe, you could only address the version that is actually worth looking at.

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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chosen_of_Vecna View Post
    Or my point could be that with two equally valid interpretations of the class, you should only address the one that is actually playable utterly broken.
    Fixed that for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chosen_of_Vecna
    If the DM rules that it is a 6/10ths class, no one in any D&D game anywhere is ever going to use it. If we accept that it is a 10/10 casting class, some people might everyone would use it.
    Fixed that, too.

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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    Or my point could be that with two equally valid interpretations of the class, you should only address the one that is actually playable.
    I'll keep that in mind, next time I see something with two equally valid interpretations. But Rainbow Servant isn't such a case. For the interpretation that it's 6/10 to be correct, all we have to assume is that the writer forgot to take the word "every" out of the boilerplate description applied to every prestige class that advances spellcasting. For the interpretation that it's 10/10, we have to assume that the writer just coincidentally happened to delete the text "+1 of existing arcane class" four times in the table, at exactly the levels at which the class happens to gain other abilities, and that the writer also accidentally described the class as "moderate spellcasting" in the section listing all the PrCs, and that the translators for the book all just happened to also say that it's only partial spellcasting. These two interpretations are not equally valid.
    Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    I'll keep that in mind, next time I see something with two equally valid interpretations. But Rainbow Servant isn't such a case. For the interpretation that it's 6/10 to be correct, all we have to assume is that the writer forgot to take the word "every" out of the boilerplate description applied to every prestige class that advances spellcasting. For the interpretation that it's 10/10, we have to assume that the writer just coincidentally happened to delete the text "+1 of existing arcane class" four times in the table, at exactly the levels at which the class happens to gain other abilities, and that the writer also accidentally described the class as "moderate spellcasting" in the section listing all the PrCs, and that the translators for the book all just happened to also say that it's only partial spellcasting. These two interpretations are not equally valid.
    Um, no. The word every would not have to be removed. The usual is:
    "X gains Y spellcasting at every level except A/B/C/D."

    or

    "X gains Y spellcasting at levels A/B/C/D/E."

    or

    "X gains Y Spellcasting at every (odd/even) level."

    So clearly the writer wold have to have added more things in.

    But my point is that no matter how much evidence there is of what the original intent of the author was, if a typo creates an actual playable class, that should be given more attention then if the author really intended to create yet another class that no one in the universe would ever use.

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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    The remainder of the post is written in standard logic form.

    Your argument is as follows:
    1. The error is intentional.
    2. This makes the class playable.
    Thus,
    3. This should be the proper interpretation.

    The arguments of other forum-goers:
    1. This is corrected on the chart and the foreign language versions of Complete Divine.
    2. The chart and foreign language versions are not meant to be different than the text.
    3. Either the text or the other versions are wrong.
    4. It is not possible for every other version to be wrong if other versions came later.
    so,
    5. The text is very likely wrong.
    thus,
    6. It's very likely intended to be a 6/10 spell-casting class.

    1. There are acknowledged errors that make other classes better.
    2. Players should not use these errors to their advantage.
    3. Rainbow servant's 10/10 progression is an error.
    Thus,
    4. Players should not use the 10/10 progression.

    1. Incredibly powerful classes should not be used in most campaigns.
    2. The 10/10 progression is incredibly powerful.
    Thus,
    3. Players should not use the 10/10 progression in most campaigns.
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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    Quote Originally Posted by UglyPanda View Post
    Your argument is as follows:
    1. The error is intentional.
    2. This makes the class playable.
    Thus,
    3. This should be the proper interpretation.
    I never asserted the error was intentional. (Then it wouldn't be an error.) I asserted that intention is immaterial and that whatever benefits play should be used in place of whatever hurts play.

    Quote Originally Posted by UglyPanda View Post
    1. Incredibly powerful classes should not be used in most campaigns.
    2. The 10/10 progression is incredibly powerful.
    Thus,
    3. Players should not use the 10/10 progression in most campaigns.
    The 10/10 progression is not incredibly powerful, it's just barely adequate if you happen to be a Beguiler/Warmage, notice that no Wizard or Sorcerer would ever take it.

    And who on earth would assert that you shouldn't play with powerful classes? That's what they are there for.

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    Default Re: Rainbow Servant...how good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    I'll keep that in mind, next time I see something with two equally valid interpretations. But Rainbow Servant isn't such a case. For the interpretation that it's 6/10 to be correct, all we have to assume is that the writer forgot to take the word "every" out of the boilerplate description applied to every prestige class that advances spellcasting. For the interpretation that it's 10/10, we have to assume that the writer just coincidentally happened to delete the text "+1 of existing arcane class" four times in the table, at exactly the levels at which the class happens to gain other abilities, and that the writer also accidentally described the class as "moderate spellcasting" in the section listing all the PrCs, and that the translators for the book all just happened to also say that it's only partial spellcasting. These two interpretations are not equally valid.
    Incidentally, there's two or three other PrC's in Complete Divine that have a similar discrepancy between Text and Table.

    Hmm...
    Bard-4/Fighter-1/Ur-Priest-3/Divine Oracle-2/Contemplative-10.... 15th level Ur-Priest casting, ur-priest caster level 17, 9th level spells available at 14th level onwards, plus some domains for the niftier arcane spells...

    ... my, that book is open to cheese.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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