Druid: Shifter, Tamer or just go simple?

[Anukuta]

I am playing a Frostburn-type wild campaign as a (modified)mountain subtype Catfolk (Races of the wild, +1ECL)

I start as a lvl 4 Druid (other players in the campaign will start lvl 5), we have a Cleric (self-buffer fighter type, doesn't want to be a main healer) and an archery-type Ranger.

We play tested a small story to test our characters (and teach a new recruit how to play) and we now have a week to make any modifications we need for the main campaign.

From what I can tell we are missing an offencive spellcaster, a main (stand off) healer (rogue wouldn't fit into this wild campaign setting). Obviously as a druid I could compensate for this lack, however I was planning on taking the 'Tamer of beasts' prestige class (from Masters of the Wild). I realise we really don't need more tanks and martial classes but I had this goal all along when I created her.

My question is: Should I swallow my own wishes and resign myself towards becoming a spellcaster/healer type druid or could I play as a martial druid (with the intentions of becoming a Tamer of beasts) without completely destroying the party balance.

Obviously I know the DM could compensate this himself with an NPC. What will (most likely) happen is the other players will complain about loosing XP from it and look at me cross eyed and possibly blame me for not leaning towards a caster/healer-druid (even though there's a perfectly good Cleric in the party). *cough*sexism*cough*.

Should I keep working towards my goals?

[Keld Denar]

Play what you want...its a game. The point of games is to have fun.

That said, don't look at caster druid as a handicap. You can do some really nasty things by harnessing the forces of nature to destroy the defilers. Even with low level spells, you can pump out some nasty damage.

Summoning. You can spontaneously convert memed spells to summons. Look though the MM for a few summons that do nasty things. The main things to summon at low levels are wolves(dire) and hippogriffs. Augemented Summoning and Greenbound Summoning make your summons break the power curve.

If you want to get really creative....pimp out produce flame.....
Take TWF
Take Empower Spell
throw 2x touch attack spells that do (1d8+CL)x1.5 a round. It might not be the most powerful thing at level 20, but it'll sure rock the sox off anything you fight at level 5, and will outdamage call lightning in a heartbeat.
I've seen it in action, a 5th level druid pumping out about 25 damage a round with it.

Alternately, you can 2hand power attack with an Empowered Flameblade. Since the multiplier goes on AFTER the constants are all added (see the Magic Missile example for more details), you get 3:1 return on your PA with a touch attack. Sure, you don't get your STR to damage, but since wields like a scimitar (a 1handed weapon, not light) you can 2hand it and PA with it. Silly? Sure.... Fun? HELLYEA!

[Tempest Fennac]

How is the Catfolk that your using different to a normal Catfolk? Have you considered using the Spontaneous Vigor Druid variant to offset the Cleric not being the main healer to a small degree?

[Chronicled]

Best way to be a healer? Heal after battle with a wand of Cure Light Wounds. Very cheap and efficient, and what I recommend here. This lets you supply healing while having the character you want, AND lets you make the rest of the party pay up for their healing. Everyone chips in on the wand, or the cheapskates don't get their heals.

And if they look at you askance, tell them that they're perfectly welcome to roll up a healer. Or point at the cleric and his spontaneous healing. My first character was a cleric who was relegated to healbot. I vowed afterwards to never do that again, nor make anyone else do that.

[Tempest Fennac]

would a Wand of Lesser Vigor cost the same? It would probably work out slightly better for healing as long as you had at least a minute or so between encounters.

[Chronicled]

would a Wand of Lesser Vigor cost the same? It would probably work out slightly better for healing as long as you had at least a minute or so between encounters.

It would, if druids got lesser vigor on their spell lists. Ideally, a cleric/favored soul/healer/etc will have the wand, and everyone will pitch in. Or the DM can enact something like what I tried recently (see my recent thread "Report: Players rolling all the dice and other houserules" if you're curious, since I don't feel like rewriting it).

[Tempest Fennac]

According to http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules...ells-Druid.pdf , Druids have Lesser Vigor as a level 1 spell. I'll check the thread in question now thanks.

[Chronicled]

According to http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules...ells-Druid.pdf , Druids have Lesser Vigor as a level 1 spell. I'll check the thread in question now thanks.

Hmmm. Must have been Paladins I was thinking of, then.

[Tempest Fennac]

I'm not a big fan of the idea of other classes being able to healthemselves (I like playing healers, and I don't see how being able to recover such a large amount of HPs can be explained with fluff for most classes).

[Chronicled]

I'm not a big fan of the idea of other classes being able to healthemselves (I like playing healers, and I don't see how being able to recover such a large amount of HPs can be explained with fluff for most classes).

Don't count HP loss as physical injury until it starts dipping into the negatives, perhaps?

For example, in my recent campaign, the barbarian took 3-4 decent hits, but still had 30ish/90+ HP left. Since there was an hour and a half between that encounter and the next, he had time to catch his breathe, and "walk off" the bruises (at 1 HP/minute).

[Tempest Fennac]

Admittedly, I tend to see HPs as a straight measure of how injured you are (I know there was a thread about whether they should be seen as a "luck" reserve or not).

[Anukuta]

My concern is when we are in the heat of battle, that the cleric will be pig-headed and/or in no position to heal himself without causing myriads of AoO. Our cleric does not have the option of spontaneously casting cures he inclicts.

I do carry around a Cure.light wand, but this came out of my own character-rolling money and I hate the fact that I had to spend my own starting gold to be the darned healer. (Going to make them pay for the cost out of their own share when we have to buy another one, since I am *seriously* the only one using it).

I am aware that the druid's spellcasting can become lethal.
I just have trouble deciding if:

A-Should continue to level as a druid constantly (to gain spellcaster levels and just general progression
B-Eventually take 'The Tamer of beasts' prestige class (which I would really like).

That's the big stick in my road. I *WANT* to play as one. But do you guys think that it doesn't give me any benefits to do so and that I'm better off as a druid in any case.

The Tamer of Beasts let's me:
Req: Handle Animal 10
Feat: Skill Focus (Animal empathy)
Benefits:
-Take up more Animal companions (Total max HD of creatures = druid levels + ToB levels x2) and can eventually take 'Beasts' and/or Magical Beasts as animal companions.
-They get bonuses: become more intelligent (from Int 4 up to 12), + natural armor + attack and skill checks.
-They Share saving throws with me, an empathic bonds, can inspire greatness on them(lvl20).
-I can see/smell/hear through any of them at any time and distance.
-Can use the Command spell at will on any animals/creatures that shares the same type as one of my animal companions.
Cons
-Spellcasting progression is +1 every 3rd level
-No Wildshape progression whatsoever
-Good saves become: Fort and Refl. Will becomes a bad save.


I presently have the: Natural bond feat (Complete adventurers) and Skill focus (Animal Empathy). Since we will be riding alot in the wilderness and meeting most likely animals I put alot of skills points in them (it's served me well too).

Tamer of Beast prestige class will be something I can only get at level 8. So between then and there I have a feat and my wild-shape class ability that will come into effect.
I *can* switch out my feats before we start the main campaign. I want to keep 'Natural Bond' but if a large number of you think that the prestige class is crap I would like to know what to replace the Skill focus with.

Thanks

[Tempest Fennac]

I wouldn't bother due to a lack of WS and Spell progression if I'm honest (they seem to be a lot more useful then having a ton of companions).

[Anukuta]

So between the prestige class and able to cast higher level spells. The spells seem to be more important considering?

I'd also just like to point out that once I can tame Magical beasts, these creature might also have special attacks or abilities. I'm also thinking along the same lines as the Cleric is and being able to *buff* a whole army of animals/beasts/mag.beasts with the 'share spell' class ability the druid has could be real interesting too.

[Tempest Fennac]

I was thinking that Wild Shape and Spell progression are too powerful to really give up (that PrC does have some neat features, though). Another point: would the DM respond to this by putting up battle difficulty in a way that would annoy everyone else in the party?

[Anukuta]

I think you convinced me right there just by the simple fact the DM might hike up the CR! lol

However I think I *will* take up a few levels in the prestige class (1-3) and probably keep leveling the druid for wildshape and spell progression.

Although I won't go full-Tamer. I think that a tank-helping companion could really help in our campaign, well worth the sacrifice of those 2 spellcaster levels to do so. I will also have able bodied defenders around me while I cast (or move around to heal).

Up-to-date most of the *actual* fighting and damage dealing has been done by me buffing my companion and sending it in (especially since it moves much faster than a full-plate clad clunker). It's also saved an actual fight for us, by granting our cleric a flanking bonus on a creature we had ALOT of trouble hitting (due to high AC).

[Chronos]

My concern is when we are in the heat of battle, that the cleric will be pig-headed and/or in no position to heal himself without causing myriads of AoO.

Don't worry too much about that... Healing in the middle of a battle is almost never a good idea, anyway. You'll usually be better off killing the monsters first before they can do any more damage to you, and then worrying about healing afterwards when you've got the actions to spare. You'll occasionally be justified in dropping a Heal (or whatever your best healing spell is) in the middle of a fight, or maybe a Mass something (especially if you're fighting undead and can include them), but if you're ever needing to do that more than twice a day, you're probably doing something wrong.

Further on the healing topic, all three characters in your party can use a wand of Cure Light Wounds, and of course anyone can buy one. It'd be silly for them to complain about you not healing them, and it'd be hypocritical in the extreme for the cleric to complain that you're not playing your druid as a healbot. He's playing a cleric the way he wants to play one (which is perfectly fine), so why shouldn't you play a druid the way you want to play one?

On that Tamer of Beasts class, it looks like it's from 3.0 (Animal Empathy isn't a skill in 3.5; it got replaced by the Wild Empathy class feature), which might cause some wonkiness if you try to use it in a 3.5 game. The rules for druid animal companions have changed significantly between 3.0 and 3.5, which appears to be the main focus of that class.

[togapika]

Clerics can already cast heals spontaneously.

I don't feel that any cleric should be better than a fighter at being a fighter (not their job)
And no one should force you to play anything you don't want to.
If you had the plan already, tell one of your judgmental friends to suck it up and play a healbot.

[Anukuta]

On that Tamer of Beasts class, it looks like it's from 3.0 (Animal Empathy isn't a skill in 3.5; it got replaced by the Wild Empathy class feature), which might cause some wonkiness if you try to use it in a 3.5 game. The rules for druid animal companions have changed significantly between 3.0 and 3.5, which appears to be the main focus of that class.

We replaced the required ranks for 'Handle animal' ranks, the Skill focus (animal empathy) is still a feat in the 3.5 PH (+2 H.A and ride). I talked about it with my DM and we made the necessary adjustments for 3.5.

Also we talked at lengths about the Animal mastery (which grants me more total HD of creatures 2x my level, but no single creature with more HD than my character's current HD). The DM ruled that for every additional companion I would get it had to be 3HDs under my current main companion and that the 'natural bond' feat I have would only apply to my main animal companion but that the druid levels (as normal) would apply as a factor towards the additional companion's special abilities (ie. tricks, nat armor bonus etc..)

However, the bonus HDs granted by my druid class would count as the total HD of animals that I can control.

Hope this all makes sense....

[streakster]

You should play the Tamer. Why? Not 'cause its that great - it's not. Play it because you want to. They want a healbot? They can build one. It's not your job, just because you took a class with healing spells.

Also, the role of healer is one of the least necessary roles. There was a thread on the CO boards on how to get around not having a healer - here it is. Tell them to get some items if they're worried - a healing belt or an amulet of tears, or their weapon enchanted to drain the enemies heath and give it to them. You should play the character you want to play, and they can take care of their own desires for healing.

[Anukuta]

Pardon me Chronos, I meant the feat: Animal affinity.

[Chronos]

OK, just so long as you and your DM agree that some updating is needed, and how to do it. I just didn't want something to come up suddenly at the game table, and you go "Uh, oh, this doesn't make sense and I have no idea how this works", and have to stop the game to figure it out. But if you know what it is you want to do, and your DM is letting you do it, there's no problem.

[MightyIgoo]

Ah HA! When you were talking about your "Tamer of Beasts" PrC I thought it sounded familiar. Have you looked at the Beastmaster PrC in Complete Adventurer? It sounds like the same thing, updated to 3.5. Odd book to put such a class, but there you go.

[Anukuta]

That makes complete sense.

I would hate it if I was one of the other players at the table waiting for someone to figure out something like that.

Yeah, I think it's real odd how they made 2 prestige classes that resemble each other so much but one is obviously much better than the other: Tamer of beast v.s Beastmaster. Tamer wins completely over BM. Also, the BM doesn't even have 'any' spell progression at all.

I think the Beastmaster is an NPC-only prestige class or something... I wouldn't wish any player to play as one.

[Keld Denar]

Actually, its a version compatability thing, rather than 2 nearly identical classes. Around what....2001? D&D 3.0 was released to replace AD&D 2nd edition. About 3-4 years later, they released the revised 3.5 rulebooks which changed a lot of the game mechanics. With this release, whole new supliment books came out, such as the Complete series to replace the old set of splat books (Defenders of the Faith, Tome and Blood, Song and Silence, Masters of the Wild, Sword and Fist). Some of the classes, feats, and spells were kept, others were deleted, and still others were created new. Since the demands for a "pet" class were fairly common, a new pet class was created to jive with the new mechanics, similarly to how a new "shifter" class rose from the ashes of the previous one. Many of the class features were changed both to sync with the new mechanics, and others were changed for balance reasons.

That's why there are 2 different, yet similar, beast classes in 2 different books. If the newer one seems nerfed, thats because the old one was probably percieved as too unbalanced in light of the 3.0 rules. As version correction goes, it might have been "overbalanced" to the point where it is no longer a viable player class. Maybe in the next version (4.0 this summer) they will release a new "pet" class and we shall see how its mechanics match up with the other mechanics in the system.

Ask your DM about the permissability of 3.0 material in your game. Some DMs allow, but in my experience, most do not. Generally, people here don't like to give much advice concerning 3.0 mechanics because of this, and the fact that not everone still has their 3.0 books around to reference material. I know I don't.

Regardless, I'd say stay druid. Staying druid still advances your animal companion, but also advances your spellcasting fast (which gets you more and better buffs for your animal companion) and wildshape so that you can turn into an animal and kill stuff side by side with it.

[Chronicled]

Go for the Tamer. You said you'd prefer it, so that makes it the best choice. So what if you're sacrificing power--you're a druid! If anyone can sacrifice power and get away with it, it's you. Fun beats strong; if you don't enjoy your character, then what's the point of RP them?

[Phased Weasel]

Use a unicorn to heal! Druids are lucky in that one of their summons has some good healing before high level.

If you're a tamer of beasts, it's perfectly in character! Summon up a unicorn before the fight, and there's one cure medium and three cure lights taken care of. Plus, more warm bodies is always good.

[Anukuta]

I'm aware of all of this. I've been playing and DM-ing for a while as well.

The Beastmaster seems more of a substitution class (such as the harper scout, thief acrobat, etc...) a 'Ranger/Druid' template prestige class for other martial classes and I can see it benefiting a dual-wielding ranger but it seems to hinder a druid more than evolve it.

One 'gives you' the ability to have animal companions at 1st lvl. The other 'requires' you to be able to have animal companions to take it (since you need to be able to cast animal frienship). One limits you to a 'set' number of companions while the other could potentially lead to a 'swarm' of Dire Rats if you wished (lol ever heard of the pied piper of Hamelin? :chuckles:)

Although I know that the switch from 3.0 to 3.5 can be attributed towards these oddities, I consider both classes 2 different prestige classes rather than the Beastmaster being the revised version of the Tamer of Beasts in another source book.

PS.
I'm not particularly looking forward to 4e. Feels to me like a money grabber more than anything else. Felt that way towards 3.5 but still made the change... now I have to go for another edition? Nuh uh. Neither my DM nor any of the players I know will be switching. Especially since we are all poor college and university students.

[streakster]

4e never seemed just like a money-grabber to me. From what I've seen, it looks really neat and innovative. But I won't be switching, 'cause I'm with you in the finances department.

[Chronos]

(lol ever heard of the pied piper of Hamelin? :chuckles:)

Yeah, but it turned out it was just the Amazing Maurice and his Educated Rodents.