Modeling Cyrano (Or Questions About CHA)

[Ascension]

I ask this question because the CHA stat is generally assumed to cover both physical attractiveness and force of personality. Cyrano de Bergerac is a character with more force of personality than you can shake a stick at, but a decidedly unoptimal physical appearance.

My question then, is this... How would you model Cyrano in D&D? Is he a low-CHA character who maxed out his diplomacy, bluff, perform (poetry), and perform (comedy) skills (possibly with skill focus in one or more of them), thus starting with a penalty but overcoming it through training? Or is he a high-CHA character who's just misunderstood?

Of course, I realize a better question would be... Why is the CHA stat for every race based off of the human standard? Orcs may appear ugly and uncouth to human eyes, but I imagine they're attractive to each other. Do you model this with racial situational modifiers to CHA and CHA-based skill checks in your games?

In my opinion, the objective beauty of D&D is just as obnoxious as its objective morality is to some. I probably should've started a separate thread for it.

I also can't believe Perform checks can be made untrained when Knowledge checks can't, when it's much more believable for a highly intelligent person to have picked up some random bits of trivia about a wide variety of things than it is for a charismatic person to know how to play a little on any instrument, but that's definitely another issue for another thread...

[GammaPaladin]

A better question is "Why don't they split the dang stat?". Having it represent both is retarded, to be honest.

[Zincorium]

Charisma isn't dependant on a person's physical appearance, Cyrano has the instinctive understanding of dealing with people and likable personality that is typical of a high-charisma person. He communicates.

As long as you operate under the (in my mind mistaken) assumption that physical appearance is a meaningful part of charisma, problems like the ones you've noticed will plague you. It's better to dissasociate any notions of physical beauty (which vary wildly from person to person) from the stat.

Orcs, like dwarves, don't receive much intimacy from people around them while growing up, with dwarves it's simply emotional distance stemming from their own upbringing, whereas with orcs any display of emotion other than rage will earn them a savage beating by their parents or peers.

Both examples lead to a loss of empathy and openness, they are simply unable to deal with others, including members of their own races, as well as humans because they are relatively emotionally crippled. Even the most charismatic and outgoing individuals will still have that insecurity holding them back.

[drengnikrafe]

I'd like to first point out the flaw in the stat seperation thought.
So, you suggest one stat to be called "charisma", and one stat to be called "Beauty". And just what would "beauty" do for you? Not a whole lot.

Now, to your Perform Vs. Knowledge...
It is moderately reasonable to assume that knowledge checks could go to people without that exact knowledge, and I believe (don't hold me to this one) that anyone can make a check for common knowledge (DC 10 or less). If you want to know something obscured, it's reasonable to assume you must know something about it, which would be indicated by knowledge ranks. You honestly think that just because you're a moderately intelligent person, you will arbitrarily know that the Archmage Kidrlen's childhood nickname was Clinker if you know nothing special about magic?
As for untrained perform, I do not consider myself a charasmatic person. Both in the physical and mental aspects, I rarely get along very well, and if people like me it was a lucky strike from my fair intelligence. Even I, however, can pick up a guitar and read off a tab sheet, and play a decent tune. With no training whatsoever, I can still do it. Thus, perform is plausable untrained, and knowledge, both intra-game and meta-game (the purpose of ranks in knoweldge would become all but useless if it became unrequired), is not.

[Chronos]

Of course, I realize a better question would be... Why is the CHA stat for every race based off of the human standard? Orcs may appear ugly and uncouth to human eyes, but I imagine they're attractive to each other.

Sure, orcs are attracted to each other, right up to the point when one of them offends the other, and they get into a fight to the death over it. Dwarves would have the same problem, except that they've ordered and regimented their life to the point where you can't have fights to the death spontaneously break out (instead, you have clans shunning each other and passive-aggressively making life miserable for each other for centuries after the original feuders are dead).

While physical appearance is one way that charisma can manifest, it's not the only way, nor by far the most important way. And even when charisma does manifest in physical appearance, it's usually in things like bearing and poise. The same scar that would be disfiguring on a low-charisma person might look tough and professional on a high-charisma character.

This also ties into Intimidate being based on charisma. A charismatic person is good at getting other people to react to em the way e wants. Ordinarily, most people want other people to like them, so ordinarily, charismatic people come across as likable. But sometime, folks want to be feared, or respected, or whatever, and high-charisma folks are good at getting that, too.

[MisterSaturnine]

Charisma isn't dependant on a person's physical appearance, Cyrano has the instinctive understanding of dealing with people and likable personality that is typical of a high-charisma person. He communicates.

I think that's the crux of it--Cyrano would have fairly high charisma. Other people don't tend to react badly to his appearance. The only person that is truly repulsed by Cyrano's appearance is Cyrano. Basically, he has high Charisma but he doesn't think he does.

[Ascension]

Stat separation is probably a good idea. Beauty probably shouldn't have a numerical or mechanical value whatsoever, especially since it's not something about which there is any sort of objective standard (and not everyone who deserves a CHA penalty gets it... neither the non-sociable culture nor the human-standard-of-beauty explanation has any excuse for the Hobgoblin not having a racial CHA penalty).

Plus, divorcing CHA entirely from beauty would go a long way towards explaining why the Acherai (IIRC) has a 14 CHA.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

I tend to treat games in such a way that Charisma really isn't charisma at all. It is Wizard's inept name for Presnce. Regardless of the source of it (looking rediculously attractive or having a powerful personality) it's all about what it is that makes people notice you and gives you your interpersonal power. So Uberchargers look like dumb brutes, and the only reason folks don't discount them simply as such is because they just tore down a castle wall with a heavy bit of metal. On the flipside, a diplomancer can walk into a room wearing nothing but a fluffy bathrobe/plushy slippers and folks can FEEL it.

[Ascension]

On the flipside, a diplomancer can walk into a room wearing nothing but a fluffy bathrobe/plushy slippers and folks can FEEL it.

So Hugh Hefner is a diplomancer? That would explain some things...

[MisterSaturnine]

So Hugh Hefner is a diplomancer? That would explain some things...

A diplomancer who uses the BoEF liberally.

[GammaPaladin]

Stat separation is probably a good idea. Beauty probably shouldn't have a numerical or mechanical value whatsoever, especially since it's not something about which there is any sort of objective standard (and not everyone who deserves a CHA penalty gets it... neither the non-sociable culture nor the human-standard-of-beauty explanation has any excuse for the Hobgoblin not having a racial CHA penalty).

Plus, divorcing CHA entirely from beauty would go a long way towards explaining why the Acherai (IIRC) has a 14 CHA.

Yeah, eliminating "appearance" as a numeric stat altogether is what I was getting at. It really serves no useful purpose whatsoever.

[Tengu]

Charisma represents the ability to make other people do what you want, subconsciously or consciously, and thus the reasons to possess high or low charisma vary from character to character. Cyrano, of course, would possess high charisma, just like many real world politicians who inspire and lead masses despite not looking very attractive (Churchill, anyone?).