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    BisectedBrioche's Avatar

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    Default [PrC] "You scratch my back, I'll stab yours..."

    The Shadow's Advocate

    The young rogue moved silently through the cave, the guards had spotted him on his way in but as he always said (quietly, to himself) "If they see you, then you're the last person they see". He had been promised an excellent pay-off if he managed to steal some items from his employer's rival. He'd already dodged many of the traps and he'd disarmed the rest, ready to reset before he left. As he approached the first chest and effortlessly opened the lock he realised something felt wrong. Moments later his suspicions where confirmed when he was sent flying by a blast. He looked up from the ground to see a familiar figure looking over him.

    "Why did you bother sending me here if you could get in anyway?", he stuttered.

    "Occasionally, I like to test my security tested. It keeps the guards on their toes and weeds out the poorer ones.", came the reply, "Now, I'm afraid I like to keep descriptions of myself to a minimum...."

    He was the last person the rogue ever saw.


    Hit Die: d6

    Class Skills:
    Bluff, Spot, Liston, Gather Information, Craft (trap), Profession (Con Man), Knowledge (any 3), Move Silently, Hide, Sleight of Hand, Speak Language, Disguise, Forgery, Diplomacy, Intimidate
    Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int modifier

    Requirements

    Alignment: Any non-chaotic
    Feats: Deceptive, Persuasive
    Skills: 8 ranks in either Bluff, Sense Motive or Forgery and at least 5 ranks in the other two
    Special: Must have defeated an opponent purely through trickery rather than attacking them directly. Must have successfully built and used a trap on a foe.

    The Shadow's Advocate
    {table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

    1st|+0|+1|+1|+2|Conceal Morals

    2nd|+1|+1|+1|+3|Backstab, Analysis, Manipulator

    3rd|+1|+2|+2|+3|Set up, Innocent Suggestion

    4th|+2|+2|+2|+4|Master Bluffer, Conceal Philosophy

    5th|+2|+3|+3|+4|Exactly as I planned, False Leadership

    6th|+3|+3|+3|+5|Thanks for the help fool!

    7th|+3|+3|+3|+5|Fall Guy

    8th|+4|+4|+4|+6|Exactly as I planned 2/day

    9th|+4|+4|+4|+6|I'll be back!

    10th|+5|+5|+5|+7|You're too clever for me[/table]

    Conceal Morals/Conceal Philosophy (Ex) The Shadow's Advocate may make their alignment appear to be any other on the good/evil axis at will, should they choose. This fools all supernatural and spell-like abilities however it may be identified by a sense motive check opposed to the Shadow's Advocates character level plus their ranks in sense motive. Starting at level 4 they may also do this on the law/chaos axis.

    Backstab (Ex) If the Shadow's Advocate already has sneak attack as a class feature then its progression continues as if they had gained another level in whatever class they took. If they do not have it then they gain it and progress as a level one rogue from this point.

    Analysis (Ex) The Shadow's Advocate may spend a day studying someone, making a gather information check equal to the target's charisma plus their character level. If successful then they gain a +2 bonus on all Bluff, Disguise, Forgery, Diplomacy and Intimidate checks made against the target. They must make a successful check each day after to continue benefiting from this bonus. If they fail a check then the target becomes suspicious of them and they take a -1 penalty for these checks.

    Manipulator (Sp) The Shadow's Advocate may add half their levels in Shadow's Advocate (rounded down) to all Bluff, Disguise, Forgery, Diplomacy, and Craft (Trap) checks.

    Set up (Sp) Whenever they make a skill check, the shadow's advocate may delay the effect for up to 1 hour, they may choose any length of time as long as it does not exceed this but they may not cancel the effect. This is a spell-like ability and can be suppressed by anti-magic effects, in which case the effect happens immediately. The effects include but are not limited to; people's behaviour being influence by bluff, diplomacy, etc, items being crafted are prepared but will not function until the duration has ended.

    Innocent Suggestion (Sp) A number of times per day equal to their charisma modifier the advocate may use suggestion as a spell-like ability with a caster level equal to their levels in shadow's advocate.

    Master Bluffer (Sp) An advocate may give up one use of innocent suggestion to use charm person as a spell-like ability with a caster level equal to their levels in shadow's advocate.

    Exactly as I planned (Sp) Once per day the advocate may give up a use of Innocent suggestion in order to predict otherwise random events, as long as said event will take place within a week. They may choose one event determined (mechanically) by the roll of a d20. The DM must then make the roll and use the result (which they inform the player of). Just because the advocate is aware of the result of the event doesn't mean it will happen. For example the player could ask "What will the result of the disarm attempt be when someone tries to disarm the trap just outside my door" however it does not mean that anyone will actually try to disarm the trap within a week, it will only give them the result if they do. At level 8 they gain an extra use per day.

    False Leadership (Ex) The advocate gains the advantages of the leadership feat with some exceptions;
    • The advocate uses his cohort as a proxy to deliver orders to followers
    • Their cohort and followers may be of an opposing alignment to the advocate but may not be of opposing alignments to one another.
    • The followers are not aware that they are following the advocate and will not answer to direct orders from him, unless the cohort pretends the advocate is his cohort.


    Thanks for the help fool! (Ex) When an advocate makes a skill check he may add half the ranks of any single individual within 30ft + (5 x Cha modifier) to his own for the purpose of that check.

    Fall Guy (Sp) The advocate may designate any of his followers or his cohort as a "fall guy". All of his followers will believe he is the real boss regardless of evidence to the contrary (the fall guy included). This is a spell like, mind affecting enchantment. They will still take orders given to the cohort however they believe that they come from the fall guy rather than the advocate. When confronted with evidence that they are not quite in control of their actions then the fall guy is entitled to a will save to shake off the effects with a DC equal to the advocate level plus his charisma score.

    I'll be back! (Su) If the advocate is reduced to 0 hp or less then he may immediately drop to -10. At this point he appears to be dead, however after 1d6 hours, days or weeks (at his own discretion) he regains 1 point of help and starts returning to health as if he was at negative hit points and stable.

    You're too clever for me (Su) The advocate has told so many fake stories and lies that all knowledge checks made in regards to an advocate will result in false information 99% of the time. If a 1% is rolled then it will be clear (although the information gatherers are not aware quite how) that the information is accurate.
    Last edited by BisectedBrioche; 2008-03-24 at 03:59 PM.
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    Default Re: [PrC] You scratch my back, I'll stab yours...

    ooh, a PRC built around being a Magnificient Bastard? I likes it!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dsurion View Post
    I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.
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    My Homebrew:Synchronized Swordsmen,Dual Daggers,The Doctor,The Preacher,The Brawler
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    Default Re: [PrC] "You scratch my back, I'll stab yours..."

    I like it. However, there are a few things that could use some work.

    First, change the Charisma requirement. No PrC should use an ability score as a prereq. Also on the prereqs, add some feats, up the skill requirements, or something. Currently this class can be taken at 3rd level. PrC's shouldn't be available till 5th+ Level.

    I would suggest a Good Reflex save and/or the good will save.

    On to the abilities, most are pretty good although I have a few minor things. First, on the abilities clarify whether the ability is (Ex/Su/Sp) in the name. Very minor thing, but helps add a little touch in the formating.

    Next on Thanks for Help Fool! lower the range to 30ft or 30ft + 5ft per point of Cha bonus.

    Anyway, like the class and it's pretty well done.

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    Default Re: [PrC] "You scratch my back, I'll stab yours..."

    Quote Originally Posted by watsyurname529 View Post
    I like it. However, there are a few things that could use some work.

    First, change the Charisma requirement. No PrC should use an ability score as a prereq. Also on the prereqs, add some feats, up the skill requirements, or something. Currently this class can be taken at 3rd level. PrC's shouldn't be available till 5th+ Level.

    I would suggest a Good Reflex save and/or the good will save.

    On to the abilities, most are pretty good although I have a few minor things. First, on the abilities clarify whether the ability is (Ex/Su/Sp) in the name. Very minor thing, but helps add a little touch in the formating.

    Next on Thanks for Help Fool! lower the range to 30ft or 30ft + 5ft per point of Cha bonus.

    Anyway, like the class and it's pretty well done.
    OK, I've replaced the cha requirement with the deceptive feat.

    The will save is good, it just onyl goes up to 10 levels.

    I've added the ability types and changed the range of TftHF. Thanks.
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    Default Re: [PrC] "You scratch my back, I'll stab yours..."

    Agree with above. Also, why no 8th level ability? Just struck me as odd.

    Love the flavour, by the by- I don't see enough classes based on trickery instead of interesting ways of whacking stuff over the head.
    Last edited by Imrix.; 2008-03-23 at 02:06 PM.

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    Default Re: [PrC] "You scratch my back, I'll stab yours..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Imrix. View Post
    Agree with above. Also, why no 8th level ability? Just struck me as odd.

    Love the flavour, by the by- I don't see enough classes based on trickery instead of interesting ways of whacking stuff over the head.
    I couldn't think of anything.

    Most of the "scheming" would be done with existing mechanics (I've included bonuses to diplomcay and the like) and the player's imagination.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    confused Re: [PrC] "You scratch my back, I'll stab yours..."

    ...
    My name is merely Ducard, but I speak for Ras al Ghul
    Sweet PRC.
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    *high fives*
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    Default Re: [PrC] "You scratch my back, I'll stab yours..."

    Cool. The changes are good. Now the 8th dead level also bothered me and for an easy fill you could put Uncanny Dodge or Evasion to help represent their Rogueness and ability to not be touched.

    That or come up with another unique power. Although I probably would still add Uncanny Dodge to represent their sense of awareness, etc. and give them a slight combat boost. Speaking of which, you might want to up the BAB to 3/4. Just a suggestion to keep this open for people who like to get their hands dirty.

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    Default Re: [PrC] "You scratch my back, I'll stab yours..."

    In Fall Guy, is the save number of Advocate levels + Cha mod or is it total character level plus Cha mod? But otherwise it's really cool. I totally want to see if my GM will let me use this. Though something for level 8 would be cool.
    Last edited by Colt; 2008-03-24 at 07:16 AM.
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    Default Re: [PrC] "You scratch my back, I'll stab yours..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Colt View Post
    In Fall Guy, is the save number of Advocate levels + Cha mod or is it total character level plus Cha mod? But otherwise it's really cool. I totally want to see if my GM will let me use this. Though something for level 8 would be cool.
    Total character levels, including SA levels.

    There's no ability for level 8 because I couldn't think of any that would fit.
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    Default Re: [PrC] "You scratch my back, I'll stab yours..."

    Perhaps an upgraded version of "Exactly as I planned"? Maybe take it to 2/day? It is a rather useful skill if you're making huge evil plans.
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    Default Re: [PrC] "You scratch my back, I'll stab yours..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Colt View Post
    Perhaps an upgraded version of "Exactly as I planned"? Maybe take it to 2/day? It is a rather useful skill if you're making huge evil plans.
    Seconded.

    Great class, I love it and may play it when I get the chance.
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    Default Re: [PrC] "You scratch my back, I'll stab yours..."

    I can't really think of a way of upgrading Exactly as I planned....
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    Default Re: [PrC] "You scratch my back, I'll stab yours..."

    The requirements are too low, with the only requirements being a feat with no pre-reqs, an alignment, five ranks in three skills, and a special thing that a level one character can do...a rogue, a bard, or anyone else with forgery, sense motive and bluff as in-class skills can meet the prereqs at third level. The minimum requirement (generally) is fifth level, up at least one of the skills to 8 ranks.

    But apart from that, brilliant. Bloody brilliant.
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    Default Re: [PrC] "You scratch my back, I'll stab yours..."

    What's wrong with taking "Exactly as I planned" to 2/day? I think it wouldn't be too overpowered. but yea, the pre-reqs are a bit too low.
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    Default Re: [PrC] "You scratch my back, I'll stab yours..."

    Fine then. I've upped the pre-reqs and added Just as I planned 2/day. The empty space was annoying me TBH.
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    Default Re: [PrC] "You scratch my back, I'll stab yours..."

    Sweet merciful baby Jesus...this is BRILLIANT!

    The only thing here I can think to tidy this up a bit is transform backstab into a static sneak attack upgrade (+1d6 at 2nd, +2d6 at 4th, so on so forth)... makes it look smother and more professional IMHO...aside from that... you win an interwebs! :P
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    Default Re: [PrC] "You scratch my back, I'll stab yours..."

    Quote Originally Posted by TARDIS View Post
    Sweet merciful baby Jesus...this is BRILLIANT!

    The only thing here I can think to tidy this up a bit is transform backstab into a static sneak attack upgrade (+1d6 at 2nd, +2d6 at 4th, so on so forth)... makes it look smother and more professional IMHO...aside from that... you win an interwebs! :P
    If I did that it would be hard to tell if levels in rogue (or other sneak attacking classes) stacked for determining sneak attack damage.
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    Default Re: [PrC] "You scratch my back, I'll stab yours..."

    I like this. Backstabbing people is fun! I really like "I'll Be Back!". Does this mean that all action-adventure show villains have the Shadow's Advocate PrC?

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    Default Re: [PrC] "You scratch my back, I'll stab yours..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtouched View Post
    I like this. Backstabbing people is fun! I really like "I'll Be Back!". Does this mean that all action-adventure show villains have the Shadow's Advocate PrC?
    No, they just take the Card Carrying Villain feat;

    Card Carrying Villain [General]
    You are without doubt a villain. You're out to get everyone and kick their little dog.
    Prerequisites: Deceptive, Non good alignment
    Benefits: +1 to all intimidate checks. If you have an evil alignment this cannot be discerned. All animals you attack are incapacitated for 1 round.
    Special: If you see a dog, you must make an unarmed strike against it.
    Last edited by BisectedBrioche; 2008-03-26 at 03:16 PM.
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    Default Re: [PrC] "You scratch my back, I'll stab yours..."

    Oh, wow! I love this! I do have one question though:

    If you used Exactly as I Planned to predict (let's use your example) the result of an attempt to open a door, and for whatever reason, the player used it against another player, would the player attempting to open said door not roll at all, or would there be another mechanic I'm missing?
    Some Stuff I've tried brewing:

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    Dark Mind- Evil split personality template
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75765

    Eldritch ghost- Warlock/Ninja PrC
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...eldritch+ghost

    Student of the Fox- Class based on kitsune
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77615


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    Default Re: [PrC] "You scratch my back, I'll stab yours..."

    Quote Originally Posted by StoryKeeper View Post
    Oh, wow! I love this! I do have one question though:

    If you used Exactly as I Planned to predict (let's use your example) the result of an attempt to open a door, and for whatever reason, the player used it against another player, would the player attempting to open said door not roll at all, or would there be another mechanic I'm missing?
    You have to roll to open doors?

    EDIT: It occurred to me that you meant disarming a trap on a door. I still don't understand what you mean though.
    Last edited by BisectedBrioche; 2008-03-27 at 07:33 AM.
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    Default Re: [PrC] "You scratch my back, I'll stab yours..."

    Err... oops, ya disarming a trapped door. Suppose you use Exactly as I planned to determine the result of an attempt to disarm said door. Now suppose that another player attempts to disarm the door. Normally the player attempting the disarm would roll to see the result of his attempt, but wouldn't Exactly as I Planned already have determined this result?

    Or maybe I'm misreading something.
    Some Stuff I've tried brewing:

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    Dark Mind- Evil split personality template
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75765

    Eldritch ghost- Warlock/Ninja PrC
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...eldritch+ghost

    Student of the Fox- Class based on kitsune
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77615


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    Default Re: [PrC] "You scratch my back, I'll stab yours..."

    Quote Originally Posted by StoryKeeper View Post
    Err... oops, ya disarming a trapped door. Suppose you use Exactly as I planned to determine the result of an attempt to disarm said door. Now suppose that another player attempts to disarm the door. Normally the player attempting the disarm would roll to see the result of his attempt, but wouldn't Exactly as I Planned already have determined this result?

    Or maybe I'm misreading something.
    Oh I see. The roll would be determined ahead of time and apply to the first attempt to disarm the trap. Basically the roll of the d20 will have been determined but the modifiers depend on who ends up disarming the trap (if anyone).
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    Default Re: [PrC] "You scratch my back, I'll stab yours..."

    this class is awesome!!! with that I'll be back ability it would make an excellent badguy
    "78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature."

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    Default Re: [PrC] "You scratch my back, I'll stab yours..."

    Conceal Morals/Conceal Philosophy (Ex) The Shadow's Advocate may make their alignment appear to be any other on the good/evil axis at will, should they choose. This fools all supernatural and spell-like abilities however it may be identified by a sense motive check opposed to the Shadow's Advocates character level plus their ranks in sense motive. Starting at level 4 they may also do this on the law/chaos axis.
    Shouldn't it be opposed by bluff? Bluff usually opposes sense motive unless this PRC is a wisdom build (in which case it'd be a little funky; sense motive opposing sense motive - it's like a battle of perceptions or 'I know that you know that I know that you know...').

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    Default Re: [PrC] "You scratch my back, I'll stab yours..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Bisected8 View Post
    Class Skills:
    [...]Craft (trap), Profession (Con Man)
    As far as I'm aware, this would be the only class in existence that gives only specific Craft and Profession skills as class skills. Craft (all) and Profession (all) should pretty much always be in-class - I consider those classes that don't have them to be erroneous, personally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bisected8 View Post
    The Shadow's Advocate
    {table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

    1st|+0|+1|+1|+2|Conceal Morals

    2nd|+1|+1|+1|+3|Backstab, Analysis, Manipulator

    3rd|+1|+2|+2|+3|Set up, Innocent Suggestion

    4th|+2|+2|+2|+4|Master Bluffer, Conceal Philosophy

    5th|+2|+3|+3|+4|Exactly as I planned, False Leadership

    6th|+3|+3|+3|+5|Thanks for the help fool!

    7th|+3|+3|+3|+5|Fall Guy

    8th|+4|+4|+4|+6|Exactly as I planned 2/day

    9th|+4|+4|+4|+6|I'll be back!

    10th|+5|+5|+5|+7|You're too clever for me[/table]
    You have non-standard Fort and Ref saves - they should be equal to 1/3 of level. Currently you have them equal to 1/2 of level - that progression does not exist. It should be 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 2, etc, not 1, 1, 2, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bisected8 View Post
    Backstab (Ex) If the Shadow's Advocate already has sneak attack as a class feature then its progression continues as if they had gained another level in whatever class they took. If they do not have it then they gain it and progress as a level one rogue from this point.
    I don't think this works the way you want it to. As I read this, RAW, someone who already has a Sneak Attack progression gains one extra level of whatever class that progression came from at 2nd level, and never again. Meanwhile, someone who did not have one could argue that they continue to gain Sneak Attack progression... even after they stop taking levels in this class.

    Every other prestige class in the game with Sneak Attack just gives its own progression. You should feel free to do so here. I understand that you were trying to prevent the situation where someone gets +1d6 SA two levels in a row by multiclassing, but you are not going to change the fact that that happens with one PrC; just houserule that this is how precision damage multiclassing works in your games, if you feel it is necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bisected8 View Post
    Set up (Sp) Whenever they make a skill check, the shadow's advocate may delay the effect for up to 1 hour, they may choose any length of time as long as it does not exceed this but they may not cancel the effect. This is a spell-like ability and can be suppressed by anti-magic effects, in which case the effect happens immediately. The effects include but are not limited to; people's behaviour being influence by bluff, diplomacy, etc, items being crafted are prepared but will not function until the duration has ended.
    What? I don't understand what this is doing at all. And it can't be a Spell-like Ability unless, ya know, it replicates a Spell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bisected8 View Post
    Thanks for the help fool! (Ex)
    Grammar nitpick: direct address is offset by commas, so this should be "Thanks for the help, fool!" Hardly a major issue, just pointing it out.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [PrC] "You scratch my back, I'll stab yours..."

    This would be tough to play in a 'standard' game with a 'standard' group, but awesome nonetheless. This is getting saved.

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