Playing the Batman

[AmberVael]

Okay, I've seen hundreds of threads and topics talking about "wizards are amazing" and how they can avoid everything, and seen demonstrations in duels and vs threads that they can generally have a much higher chance of winning than any other class.
Quite honestly though, I've seen and heard all this, but I've never been shown an example. True, for the most part it is theoretical, but surely someone out there has played the batman wizard in a format that can be displayed across the internet? Play by post game, perhaps?
I'm curious to see just how well it really pans out, how untouchable, amazing, and versatile a wizard can be. I've seen wizards played and used before, but nothing like the claim of their full potential. I'm a wee bit doubtful that they're truly everything that people have said they are. Seeing all I have, I'm not going to argue that they aren't any good (or one of the best) but I'm skeptical of them having a counter to everything and being able to maintain that all day (or until they decide to rest).

So, anyone have a real example besides vaguely posted stats or PvP duels?

[Frosty]

I am just about to start playing one. In the teens forl evels, not level 20, so I can't quite use all the cheap tricks yet. But, with the ability to Spontaneously cast any spell from the divination school, I can really be prepared for the next day's challenges. The trick is that you don't need to go all day by yourself. You have 3 other lackeys to help you stretch your resources out. You can also summon a Magnificent Mansion when you're completely empty.

Also, very importantly, you can scribe scrolls and use wands. Scrolls are like extra spell slots that you can only use once, but they're cheap enough to replenish as you go. With a decent amount of scrolls and wands, you can go through the day with no problems. You won't be using it all up at once, but with them, you're not deathly afraid of being completely empty.

[rockdeworld]

I just want to mention that really nothing is ever everything that people say it is.

Edit: Sorry, you said besides PvP duels, so ignore this if you want.

Spoiler

Show

Take this example fight between a L20 wizard and 4 L20 fighters.

Fighters: 200 HP, Wizard 40 HP

Initiative
Fighter 18
Fighter 22
Fighter 16
Wizard 10

Round 1
Wizard: Celerity + Time Stop for 4 rounds (a 6th level spell)

---Time Stop Begins---

Round 1-1
Wizard is Dazed

Round 1-2
Wizard uses Greater Rod of Metamagic (Quicken) and Greater Rod of Metamagic (Maximize) to cast 2 Maximized Delayed Blast Fireballs, delayed until immediately after the end of Time Stop (less than 3 rounds).

Round 1-3
Wizard does the same thing as above, except that the 2nd Fireball isn't maximized. Now there are 4 Fireballs, 3 Maximized, and all 4 7th level spell slots are used up.

Round 1-4
Wizard casts Quickened Mirror Image (Level 8 Spell) and Prismatic Sphere.

---Time Stop Ends---

All 4 Fireballs go off, with save DCs of 22. The Fighters have a will save of +11, so they each save on 2 of them, the first two fireballs.

The first 3 fireballs were maximized for 20*6 = 120 damage, and the fourth deals on average 60 damage. The fighters each take 60+60+120+60 = 300 damage.

The 4 fighters die before getting a chance to even act. The wizard used the following spell slots: 6th, 7th, 7th, 7th, 7th, 8th, 9th.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Okay, I've seen hundreds of threads and topics talking about "wizards are amazing" and how they can avoid everything, and seen demonstrations in duels and vs threads that they can generally have a much higher chance of winning than any other class.
Quite honestly though, I've seen and heard all this, but I've never been shown an example. True, for the most part it is theoretical, but surely someone out there has played the batman wizard in a format that can be displayed across the internet? Play by post game, perhaps?
I'm curious to see just how well it really pans out, how untouchable, amazing, and versatile a wizard can be. I've seen wizards played and used before, but nothing like the claim of their full potential. I'm a wee bit doubtful that they're truly everything that people have said they are. Seeing all I have, I'm not going to argue that they aren't any good (or one of the best) but I'm skeptical of them having a counter to everything and being able to maintain that all day (or until they decide to rest).

So, anyone have a real example besides vaguely posted stats or PvP duels?

The problem is that it's hard to convince someone you don't know that you won't ruin their fun. I've played a couple games as such a Wizard in person, with a very good friend DMing who knows me, knows the kind of crazy things I do and also knew that I would not do it if I was killing anyone else's fun.

The Problem with PbP games are:
1) Most start at fairly low level and level once or twice before they die.
2) Go to the first ECL 7 or higher game you see, try and get accepted with a Build of Wizard 5/Incantatrix X. Tell me how that goes. No matter what your backstory, no matter what you where going to do with those abilities, they will think you will destroy the game.

PbP is just low power, because you can't really trust strangers on the internet, and playing a high power DnD game requires trust.

Also: Rockdeworld, weirdest two characters I've ever seen. Wizard with low Init? A save DC of 20? That would mean 17 int, the absolute minimum to cast the spell.

[AmberVael]

*snip*
The fighter dies before getting a chance to even act.

Congratulations. You just proved that a wizard can kill a fighter in a PbP duel.
Which is exactly what I said I didn't want. I know that a wizard can do that (if properly prepared. If not properly prepared, it would likely take a few rounds for them to obliterate the fighter instead of one.)

My curiosity is how well do they work in a campaign, which you have to admit is substantially different.

CoV: I'm aware that is a common thing not to allow stuff like that (or to just stop playing), but I figure someone (I mean, Frosty is apparently about to do it) has done it before. We've got hundreds and hundreds of PbP games just here, really.
Maybe it's a vain hope for me to want to see a Batman wizard played, but I'll keep waiting for someone to post a link.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

CoV: I'm aware that is a common thing not to allow stuff like that (or to just stop playing), but I figure someone (I mean, Frosty is apparently about to do it) has done it before. We've got hundreds and hundreds of PbP games just here, really.
Maybe it's a vain hope for me to want to see a Batman wizard played, but I'll keep waiting for someone to post a link.

I would love to be that example, I check as often as I can in the Finding Players section for anything approaching a game I could play that type of character. Right now, if something came up, I would play the Wizard that is the first character in my post over in the Ideal Party thread.

[Bag_of_Holding]

'Getting prepared ahead of time' is a very, very difficult thing to achieve. Even with the usual arsenal of divination spell list (and perhaps Spontaneous Divination, too) you'll always need the DM's cooporation or else all is in vain. So buy your DM some pizza, take him/her to a movie and if all else fails just look behind that impregnable wall known as DM screen.

Seriously, it' all theoretical that a given wizard will know anything about the future! Heck, even Divination or Augury spells are all in Cleric spell list, not Wizard. So until you get Foresight at 17th level (or use a scroll, perhaps?) and even with that spell you can't even possibly know what's going to happen to you/your party within the next 24 hours. So it's all theoretical as far as I'm concerned.

If you ask me, I'd say the name 'Batman' is NOT something so cool and so powerful, but an excuse for having all the crucial spells in a PvP simulation. No more, no less.


p.s. I'd be only too happy to find out that I'm wrong. Maybe someone can point out a proper spell to look into the future, perhaps?

[Solo]

I would love to be that example, I check as often as I can in the Finding Players section for anything approaching a game I could play that type of character. Right now, if something came up, I would play the Wizard that is the first character in my post over in the Ideal Party thread.

Well, count me in for any games with Batman. I'll probably play a Sorcerer.

Screw taloring my spells to fit the situation, I'm hitting the situation with my spells so hard that it runs away and cries.

[Ascension]

Starting next Sunday I'm going to be playing a semi-batman sorcerer in a four man party with two PC fighters and an NPC healer. In an attempt not to completely overshadow the fighters (which will be hard) I'm going to focus entirely on buffs, save-or-sucks, and battlefield control. No blasting, summoning, or save-or-die-ing because I want the fighters to have a chance to do some damage.

I'll let you know how it goes.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

'Getting prepared ahead of time' is a very, very difficult thing to achieve. Even with the usual arsenal of divination spell list (and perhaps Spontaneous Divination, too) you'll always need the DM's cooporation or else all is in vain. So buy your DM some pizza, take him/her to a movie and if all else fails just look behind that impregnable wall known as DM screen.

Seriously, it' all theoretical that a given wizard will know anything about the future! Heck, even Divination or Augury spells are all in Cleric spell list, not Wizard. So until you get Foresight at 17th level (or use a scroll, perhaps?) and even with that spell you can't even possibly know what's going to happen to you/your party within the next 24 hours. So it's all theoretical as far as I'm concerned.

If you ask me, I'd say the name 'Batman' is NOT something so cool and so powerful, but an excuse for having all the crucial spells in a PvP simulation. No more, no less.


p.s. I'd be only too happy to find out that I'm wrong. Maybe someone can point out a proper spell to look into the future, perhaps?

I think this is a major misconception about what Batman is. Yes sometimes he finds out what he is dealing with and then comes prepared. But a large part of the concept of Batman (as Solo has impeccably demonstrated with Ozymandius) is that Wizard spells are so good, and so all purpose, and Wizards have so many of them that a Wizard just prepares.

He doesn't prepare for something. He prepares a series of spells that allow him to instantly deal with 90% of situations in a way that heavily favors him, and to buy time for the other 10% so that he or his party can deal with them after forcing favorable conditions.

Solo, I would love to play a game with your Ozymandius and my ridiculously convoluted Wizard that needs a name. All we need is a crazy powerful Cleric and Druid and Beguiler and we can set about proving all the myths (nay Legends) of caster superiority.

[Solo]

Starting next Sunday I'm going to be playing a semi-batman sorcerer in a four man party with two PC fighters and an NPC healer. In an attempt not to completely overshadow the fighters (which will be hard) I'm going to focus entirely on buffs, save-or-sucks, and battlefield control. No blasting, summoning, or save-or-die-ing because I want the fighters to have a chance to do some damage.

I'll let you know how it goes.

If you haven't already done so, check out the relentlessly self-promoted Solo's Stupendous Sorcerer Stratagems, linked to below.

And good luck on the game.


Say, if ya'll are going to play batman wizards, why not invite Sir Giacomo to play as the party monk?

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Say, if ya'll are going to play batman wizards, why not invite Sir Giacomo to play as the party monk?

We could invite him instead of the Druid. I mean, since Monks are so amazing that they can do 300 damage a round against equal CR enemies (as long as those enemies are Barbarian Chargers with Shocktrooper and no Karmic Strike/Robilair's Gambit who just got finished charging someone else.)

[Frosty]

I think this is a major misconception about what Batman is. Yes sometimes he finds out what he is dealing with and then comes prepared. But a large part of the concept of Batman (as Solo has impeccably demonstrated with Ozymandius) is that Wizard spells are so good, and so all purpose, and Wizards have so many of them that a Wizard just prepares.

He doesn't prepare for something. He prepares a series of spells that allow him to instantly deal with 90% of situations in a way that heavily favors him, and to buy time for the other 10% so that he or his party can deal with them after forcing favorable conditions.

Solo, I would love to play a game with your Ozymandius and my ridiculously convoluted Wizard that needs a name. All we need is a crazy powerful Cleric and Druid and Beguiler and we can set about proving all the myths (nay Legends) of caster superiority.

Since I am going to to play a batman, or try to, can you enlighten me as to the spells you would prepare to deal with 90% of the situation? Assume you're level 13 or 14, and you've banned Necromancy, Enchantment, and Evocation. So no timestop, foresight, etc yet.

I'm goin to assume one would want lots of stuff like Solid Fog, Evard's Black Tentacles, Grease, Web, some save or dies, and some damage spells.

[shadow_archmagi]

If you haven't already done so, check out the relentlessly self-promoted Solo's Stupendous Sorcerer Stratagems, linked to below.

And good luck on the game.


Say, if ya'll are going to play batman wizards, why not invite Sir Giacomo to play as the party monk?

I read your sorcerer guide. As I stumbled upon it just as I was planning a chaotic good likable/friendly merchant sorcerer, the idea of using almost entirely nondamage spells was appealing to me. This is (as best as I remember) his first encounter.

Is THIS the sort of thing you mean?

Spoiler

Show

Wizard the party has foiled twice before: Now, you've interfered with my plans for the last time! Prepare to die!
Sorcerer: Who are you? Can't we just talk about this?
Wizard: No! *whistles, teleports*
Wyvern: Rawr!
*everyone rolls init*
Paladin: 19
Wyvern: 1
Sorcerer: 3
Battlesorcerer: 15
Sorcerer says: Wait! I have a plan! Don't attack it yet! Don't even menace it!
Paladin waits.
Battlesorc waits.
Sorcerer Casts Rainbow Pattern. Wyvern fails will save.
Sorcerer lures dragon into middle of party via rainbow pattern.
Everyone readies actions.
Paladin full attacks.
Battlesorc uses sphere of flame
Sorcerer uses maximized ray of enfeeblement
Wyvern full attacks paladin.
Attack 6 hits for 1 damage.
Paladin full attacks wyvern.
Battlesorc uses sphere of cold.
Sorcerer uses heightened color spray. Wyvern fails will save.
Wyvern can't move.
Paladin full attacks *CRITICAL HIT*
Wyvern has died.

As you can see, I personally did no damage, but because of me neither did the enemy. I also managed to get it in range and flanked.

[kme]

Since I am going to to play a batman, or try to, can you enlighten me as to the spells you would prepare to deal with 90% of the situation? Assume you're level 13 or 14, and you've banned Necromancy, Enchantment, and Evocation. So no timestop, foresight, etc yet.

I'm goin to assume one would want lots of stuff like Solid Fog, Evard's Black Tentacles, Grease, Web, some save or dies, and some damage spells.

Take o look at this guide, IMO it is very practical and realistic. Near the end it also has spell selection and equipment for two different wizards at levels 5 10 and 15, so check them. They are focused specialists, and have exactly those schools banned.

[Renegade Paladin]

So, anyone have a real example besides vaguely posted stats or PvP duels?

No, because all these wonderful theories don't actually work in practice. You will not see a wizard dominating an entire campaign like that, because the DM can and will find monsters to foil whatever the wizard's shtick is. A wizard can be tremendously effective, but what he cannot do is dominate everything that comes his way by himself all day long. I've tried. It doesn't work. You only have so many spells prepared; you cannot conceivably prepare to beat everything that may come your way. Especially things like golems, which have very specific vulnerabilities, most of which would be uncommon as combat spells.

[Frosty]

But Orb spells still own them. No SR

Say, does anyone knwo of a way to be able to spontaneously cast one spell? I remember a feat called Signature Spell or something.

[Reel On, Love]

That's not true, RP. I certainly dominated my way through the Red Hand of Doom module. I even saved the rest of my party a bunch of times.

[Solo]

I read your sorcerer guide. As I stumbled upon it just as I was planning a chaotic good likable/friendly merchant sorcerer, the idea of using almost entirely nondamage spells was appealing to me. This is (as best as I remember) his first encounter.

Is THIS the sort of thing you mean?

Spoiler

Show

Wizard the party has foiled twice before: Now, you've interfered with my plans for the last time! Prepare to die!
Sorcerer: Who are you? Can't we just talk about this?
Wizard: No! *whistles, teleports*
Wyvern: Rawr!
*everyone rolls init*
Paladin: 19
Wyvern: 1
Sorcerer: 3
Battlesorcerer: 15
Sorcerer says: Wait! I have a plan! Don't attack it yet! Don't even menace it!
Paladin waits.
Battlesorc waits.
Sorcerer Casts Rainbow Pattern. Wyvern fails will save.
Sorcerer lures dragon into middle of party via rainbow pattern.
Everyone readies actions.
Paladin full attacks.
Battlesorc uses sphere of flame
Sorcerer uses maximized ray of enfeeblement
Wyvern full attacks paladin.
Attack 6 hits for 1 damage.
Paladin full attacks wyvern.
Battlesorc uses sphere of cold.
Sorcerer uses heightened color spray. Wyvern fails will save.
Wyvern can't move.
Paladin full attacks *CRITICAL HIT*
Wyvern has died.

As you can see, I personally did no damage, but because of me neither did the enemy. I also managed to get it in range and flanked.

Good thinking. I approve.

[Sir Giacomo]

We could invite him instead of the Druid. I mean, since Monks are so amazing that they can do 300 damage a round against equal CR enemies (as long as those enemies are Barbarian Chargers with Shocktrooper and no Karmic Strike/Robilair's Gambit who just got finished charging someone else.)

Keep at least a semblance of fairness in your posts up by keeping it core, OK?

- Giacomo

[shadow_archmagi]

I'm begging you all, please, please make sure you send me a link to this.

I want to watch. It should prove epic.

[Solo]

You're invited. Join the party and we'll have four players.

[drengnikrafe]

I have an example of an incredible Wizard. My own, in one campaign.
My DM decided it would be funny if we faced 186 low level monsters with our 7th level characters. I prepared 3 fireballs, because my DM had warned me. Now, our fighter could take out 6 in a round, the rogue 2, the druid 3, the monk 5, and the bard 1, if he was lucky. First round, I cast sphere of invisibility, and the whole party gets to avoid a rain of arrows and magic blasts. 2nd round, I forgot I had wands of metamagic on me, so I fireball and kill a group of Kuo-Toa who were next, and were prepared to launch their lightning bolt. Saves a member from 10d6 damage. Third round, my party is getting eaten alive, everybody is approaching death, and I suddenly remember my abilities. "Hey, can I quicken, empower, expand, and maximize a spell all at once (It's a long story, and involves a lot of house rules)?" The ones that didn't die ran away, and quickly. I saved my whole party from certain TPK.

[shadow_archmagi]

That sounds wonderful. I would be honored to play with such respected giants in the playground.


What should I play? A sorcerer? Druid? Cleric?

[Solo]

Whatever you feel like.

We will need someone to heal us, though.

[JamesHowlett]

My curiosity is how well do they work in a campaign, which you have to admit is substantially different.

I know we all love our Wizards, but I don't think that anyone here has addressed the question.
From my experience, a Batman type wizard is pretty cool. They fit into the party really well if their player is willing to take more of a support role. Essentially, the party wizard and primary combatant have a great realtionship because Bats (at lest the ones I know) play it smart and beef up the fighter at lower levels, rather than just bombing the place. So, they end up being a very cool, very prepared bard...without the skills, the music, or being quite as charismatic.

At higher levels the Batman works like, well...batman. The DM has to find a way that isn't cheap to thwart the Wizard's divination (either by misdirection or spells... but spells are pretty lame) and then keep the game going.

It comes down to the DM. If they can be inventive enough then everybody is going to have their fair share at the table. Even the batman will fill his basic role, that of a powerful caster, in an ideal setting. I hope that kinda was the answer you were after...

[shadow_archmagi]

Whatever you feel like.

We will need someone to heal us, though.

Hmm. I'd really like to build a sorcerer, but I guess I'm obliged to make a cleric. Unless there is some sort of feat that lets me heal?

[Solo]

Play the sorcerer, I'll be the cleric.

[nerulean]

I've seen a pseudo-batman played to excellent effect. Taking conjurer with the abrupt jaunt variant, he was able to get out of any trouble that ever came his way, just as long as his turn in initiative had come once, but he seldom, if ever, had to actually use that. With the fog spell family, starting at grease and heading on upwards, he was able to stop opponents ever getting into melee with us, allowing the party to stand at a comfortable distance and blow the bejeezus out of everything from range. His personal favourite spells for doing this were the orbs of blowing your face off.

If anything ever got past that, not that it did, he had three immediate action summons per day to place in front of rampaging irritations so we could, as previously mentioned, blow stuff up at range. He also took a couple of ray spell debilitators such as ray of clumsiness just to make really, absolutely sure that nothing could ever land a blow.

He was good. So good that I'm really glad I took Eldritch Disciple levels. If I'd played plain cleric in that game like I'd originally planned, I would not have had a lot to do at all: I think I was called upon for healing spells a grand total of four times in the entire twelve-week campaign.

So yes, batman wizard is powerful. The group was cheerfully taking down two CR 18 monsters in an encounter, largely thanks to him. Of course, this was at twelfth level (the DM refused to let us get to thirteenth level, where his caster level would have jumped by two and his metamagicked spells would have become even more ridiculous) so everything was reasonably powerful, but he was in a class of his own. And yes, there are ways to counter it, but our unsuspecting DM just didn't know what had hit her when Zyar Lord of Magicks showed up.

[shadow_archmagi]

Keep at least a semblance of fairness in your posts up by keeping it core, OK?

- Giacomo

Core then. Great. Getting to work right now. Whats the stat determining system?