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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    On annother thread, sonofzeal posted an ideal which got me thinking of making a party of "optomized" terrible PC classes. Here are the requirements:
    -Must stay 20 lvs in the class. No multiclassing or PrCs, as it can be proved that a dip into some very bad classes isn't nearly as bad.
    -Any WoTC book is usable.
    -You can take two flaws.
    -You can be any non-LA race (20 lvs in the class, remember?)

    Potential classes:
    Monk, Healer, Soulknife, CW Samurai, Favored Soul, Wu-Jen?

    Perhaps some of the classes from Incarnum or ToM?
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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    Honestly I'm not sure the Wu Jen deserves to be on this list. I mean, they're a full caster and have a fairly versatile spell list...
    And Favored Soul is hardly bad.
    Last edited by AmberVael; 2008-03-23 at 09:55 PM.

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    sonofzeal's Avatar

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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    Quote Originally Posted by BardicDuelist View Post
    Potential classes:
    Monk, Healer, Soulknife, CW Samurai, Favored Soul, Wu-Jen?
    See my post in that thread. I like the idea though, but here's the class list I'd suggest, in approximate order of increasing suckiness:

    ninja, fighter, hexblade, divine mind, marshal, monk, healer, spellthief, truenamer, soulknife, samurai
    Last edited by sonofzeal; 2008-03-23 at 10:30 PM. Reason: samurai

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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vael View Post
    Honestly I'm not sure the Wu Jen deserves to be on this list. I mean, they're a full caster and have a fairly versatile spell list...
    Yeah, and Favored Soul doesn't deserve to be here either - it's still CoDzilla, even if CoDzilla light. And Healer is not a bad alternative if your cleric is a pansy healbot (let's try again...) plays the class as the short-sighted idiots at Wizards expects it to be played (grr...) prefers healing to self-buffing.

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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    I don't know why people say the ninja sucks. It isn't particularly good, but I'd hardly put it on that list. Favoured Soul and Wu-Jen hardly deserve to be there either; they're full casters with good and decent lists, respectively. CW Samurai and Soulknife deserve another mention because they just suck so much.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    sonofzeal's Avatar

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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebo_ View Post
    I don't know why people say the ninja sucks. It isn't particularly good, but I'd hardly put it on that list. Favoured Soul and Wu-Jen hardly deserve to be there either; they're full casters with good and decent lists, respectively. CW Samurai and Soulknife deserve another mention because they just suck so much.
    I think Ninja makes it on because it's like halfway between a Rogue and a Monk, but lacking the principal merits of either - they're not as durable as Monks, and not as deadly in combat as Rogues. I've never seen a Ninja build that wouldn't have been nicer with Rogue levels. Feel free to show me one though.

    Definitely agreed about the others.

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    Zombie

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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    Arcane Gnomes from Dragon Magazine #291 get Use Magical Device as a class skill.

    Level 20 Arcane Gnome <insert class here>

    Optimize for UMD and you can have a Batman Samurai / Commoner / Truenamer / etc.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    Quote Originally Posted by BardicDuelist View Post
    Perhaps some of the classes from Incarnum or ToM?
    The Incarnum classes and the Binder from ToM are decent classes. They are very flexible and the CharOp fourm has shown that they can be pretty powerful. Not full caster powerful, but still very good.
    The Shadowcaster isn't a terrible class, but it is not great either.
    Truenamer is terrible only because of the poor scaling. It would be kinda nifty otherwise.
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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebo_ View Post
    CW Samurai and Soulknife deserve another mention because they just suck so much.
    Hey now. Even the awful Soulknife doesn't deserve to get put in the same category of suckiness as the Samurai.

    My list of the worst classes in the game, from worst to better, would go:

    Commoner
    Warrior
    Samurai
    Aristocrat
    Expert
    ...
    Soulknife
    Monk
    Swashbuckler
    Truenamer
    ...
    Ninja
    Marshal
    Adept

    That seems like a good stopping place -- the best class listed being the best of the NPC classes.

    Note that the Soulknife is quite a bit better than the Expert, and the Ninja is quite a bit better than the Truenamer. (Also that the Swashbuckler, although it sucks as a 20-level class, is fun to play and makes a great dip.)
    Last edited by Draz74; 2008-03-23 at 10:30 PM.
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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    Wait, what are Spellthieves doing on the suck list? They can do everything rogues can do, they can cast some spells (admittedly, not that many, but drawn from the Sorc/Wiz list), they can double the actions available for your other party spellcasters' spells, and they can cripple enemy spellcasters. OK, so they're not Beguilers, but they're still pretty darned good.
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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vael View Post
    Honestly I'm not sure the Wu Jen deserves to be on this list. I mean, they're a full caster and have a fairly versatile spell list...
    And Favored Soul is hardly bad.
    Agreed, the Wu Jen spell Snake darts is awesome. Magic missile that deals con damage in addition.
    No save for the damage like MM and Con damage helps. I've killed things with that spell.

    Favored Soul is a Cleric wannabe. He has to learn cure spells or be behind the Cleric. And MAD.

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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimp View Post
    The Incarnum classes and the Binder from ToM are decent classes. They are very flexible and the CharOp fourm has shown that they can be pretty powerful. Not full caster powerful, but still very good.
    The Shadowcaster isn't a terrible class, but it is not great either.
    Truenamer is terrible only because of the poor scaling. It would be kinda nifty otherwise.
    The Incarnate is below-average (Even the CharOp boards could only make it "close enough" to average classes like Healer or Warlock) and the Soulborn (effectively a warrior NPC for 6 levels before it even gets a soulmeld or Essentia) truly belongs with the Hexblade and Truenamer.
    Last edited by Dode; 2008-03-24 at 06:35 AM.

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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    Bizarrely though, with the restrictions given, Soulknife would be ok. Their main horrible weakness is their utter inability to multiclass. At all.

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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Favored Soul is a Cleric wannabe. He has to learn cure spells or be behind the Cleric. And MAD.
    Being worse than one of the most overpowered classes does not mean you're terrible - in Favored Soul's case, it actually means it's more balanced.

    Quote Originally Posted by GammaPaladin View Post
    Bizarrely though, with the restrictions given, Soulknife would be ok. Their main horrible weakness is their utter inability to multiclass. At all.
    No, their main weakness is that they don't have a set party role (partial BAB, light armor, no utility or casting... what is that supposed to be, anyway?) and that their main feature can be replaced by a magic item.
    Last edited by Tengu; 2008-03-24 at 06:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Favored Soul is a Cleric wannabe. He has to learn cure spells or be behind the Cleric. And MAD.
    I've seen a Favored Soul in action. They're no Batman or CoDzilla, but they are far beyond any of these other class suggestions being tossed out. They're balanced.

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    A party of bards would maybe not be the worst in combat, but they'd get killed very fast.
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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Narmoth View Post
    A party of bards would maybe not be the worst in combat, but they'd get killed very fast.
    Wouldn't even require any NPCs.

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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    Meh, I've seen evil and lawful incarnates do damage like you wouldn't believe.

    Airstep sandals + lightning braces + incarnum weapon + necrocarnum weapon + flyby attack can by horrible. They're not massive damage dealers like the 2H power attackers, but they are much more useful in a real game.

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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Narmoth View Post
    A party of bards would maybe not be the worst in combat, but they'd get killed very fast.
    If executed poorly. But if they are executed well, they'd be the most awesome Fantasy Rock Band you'd ever see!

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    4 bards with Dragonfire Inspiration and Harmonizing weapons can add +20d6 elemental damage per bard per hit if built right. +80d6 per swing can be pretty nasty in my opinion.

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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    If it's just quickest to die, CE Warlock, LG Paladin, NG Cleric, LE Monk. I expect exactly one to escape. No NPC's needed.
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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    All-Warforged party.

    CW Samurai - tank.
    Monk - skillmonkey.
    Artificer (must include Vow of Poverty) - arcanist.
    Artificer 2 (also Vow of Poverty) - "healing."

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    I am so bad at picking classes, it isn't funny. It's not funny so much that it has circled back thrhough curved space into being hilarious (yes, I failed physics).

    Let's examine a party that my first few characters would have made up - a human monk ("They're so cool! Look how fast they can run! And they beat people with their fists!"), a dwarven samurai ("TWO weapons?! Count me in!"), a soulknife ("Miiindblaaaade" :drool:) and a ninja (no explanation necessary).

    It might not be too bad. at least they can do moderate damage in combat, if given a head start.

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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    4 bards with Dragonfire Inspiration and Harmonizing weapons can add +20d6 elemental damage per bard per hit if built right. +80d6 per swing can be pretty nasty in my opinion.
    I agree, numbers always look bigger when you multiply them by four.

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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebo_ View Post
    I agree, numbers always look bigger when you multiply them by four.
    Unless they're negative numbers.

    Or zero.
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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Overlard View Post
    Unless they're negative numbers.

    Or zero.
    Well they might still look bigger, even with the unfortunate side effect of not actually being bigger.

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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Overlard View Post
    Unless they're negative numbers.

    Or zero.
    Or i.

    Still, especially in an urban setting, you could do a lot worse than four bards. Glibness, anyone?

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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Illiterate Scribe View Post
    Or i.

    Still, especially in an urban setting, you could do a lot worse than four bards. Glibness, anyone?
    Nevermind that you don't even need 4 with dragonfire inspiration. Two dragon inspirers, an inspire courage-focused, and a spellcasting focused bard makes one hell of a party, even outside of multiclassing.

    Bards are not a bad class, a little tougher/less obvious to tweak, but by no means bad.
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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    If it's just quickest to die, CE Warlock, LG Paladin, NG Cleric, LE Monk. I expect exactly one to escape. No NPC's needed.
    I dunno... A NG cleric and a paladin might have some long philosophical debates over what exactly constitutes perfect good, but they're not going to come to blows over it, and in fact probably wouldn't hesitate to team up if either were attacked. And with that team including the cleric, I'd expect both of them to survive.
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    Default Re: Terrible PC classes party (credit to sonofzeal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Illiterate Scribe View Post
    Meh, I've seen evil and lawful incarnates do damage like you wouldn't believe.

    Airstep sandals + lightning braces + incarnum weapon + necrocarnum weapon + flyby attack can by horrible. They're not massive damage dealers like the 2H power attackers, but they are much more useful in a real game.
    This is true. Incarnates have solid combat potential, in addition to huge utility. Soulborns are rather pathetic though - paladins, without the spiffiness you'd expect from paladins.

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