Touch AC problems

[Kantolin]

Phew. Alright, I'm quite tired of my armoured characters not having even a decent touch AC. I don't mind my reflex save being a gaping hole in my defenses, but I'm tired of having my Touch AC be a second hole in my deisre to go defense.

Is there some reasonable method to have an armoured unit get a competent touch AC, while still having a high normal AC?

[sonofzeal]

Rings of Protection help, as do Mithril armor and Gloves of Dex. One potentially powerful way is a two-level dip in Wilder, which lets you add your Cha bonus to Touch AC, gain two 1st lvl powers, and use most dorjes and psicrystals without UPD checks. It'll also qualify you for Psionic feats, such as Psychic Weapon and Deep Impact. All in all, not a bad trade.

[Frosty]

Umm...have a very specific build? Have a build that utilizes Sorcerer, Monk, Swordsage, Arcane Duelist, and Wilder levels? You can probably buff your Touch AC into the 50s. This way you give Cha to AC 4 times.

[koldstare]

The only thing at is not inc in touch AC is Armor, Shield, and Nat Armor.

You could always get deflection, insight, divine, dodge, morale(or 1 of many other types) to increase your AC and Touch AC.

[Ascension]

Dex based class + Mithril breastplate. Large armor bonus, large max dex bonus, counts as light armor. If you've got the money to buy one and you're in any of the dex-based classes there's NO reason not to get one.

[Moogle0119]

If you're a Fighter type you could grab Combat Expertise and the Improved version as well (from Complete Warrior). Both add dodge bonuses to your AC, which means since it's a dodge bonus it also adds to your Touch AC. That's probably the easiest quick fix besides buying a better Ring of Protection or completely retooling your tank and changing characters.

[Isomenes]

Deflection bonuses should be kept pretty high, for starters (duh). Beyond that, I seem to recall a special kind of armor that let you keep your entire Dexterity bonus, even better than mithral, due to its construction and your familiarity with it. Or was it a feat? Furthermore, I saw a feat in PBII (Shield Ward) that allows you to apply your shield bonus to touch AC. With a shield boosted by magic vestment and a cat's grace, this gets it up to at least 21 (assuming you have a good Dexterity modifier): 10 + 3 (Dex) + 2 (Cat's grace) + 5 (deflection) + 3 (shield ward) = 23.

Or am I smoking something?

Obviously this requires magical or divine support. But I suspect ToB has some nice AC tricks as well.

[Zincorium]

Ascension- the only thing that a mithril breastplate instead of mithril chain shirt gives you is one more armor point and one less possible dex point, and for that you're spending 3000 gold. Considering you can get a +2 mithril chain shirt for the same price as a nonmagical mithril breastplate, and have less of an armor check penalty (0 instead of -1), it's not worth it to go for the mithril breastplate unless you lack the neccessary dex modifier and have enough cash that 3000 isn't meaningful.

Later on, celestial armor is a major boon for high-dexterity characters that still want to wear armor. I suppose it's theoretically possible to make it out of mithril instead of silver/gold, but if you've got a +10 modifier, your DM probably isn't going to give any ground on interpretation.

[bigbaddragon]

If you are a psionic or can multiclass into a psionic class you could take Heavy Armor Optimization from Races of Stone and than take psionic feat Deflective Armor (same book) which gives you your armor bonus (including any enhancement bonuses) to your touch AC if you are psionically focused and wearing heavy armor.

[Proven_Paradox]

Isomenes's already mentioned it, but I recommend the Shield Ward feat. The Shield Specialization feat it requires isn't so nice, but Shield Ward makes it better. If you'd rather skip the prereq, Parrying Shield helps your touch AC, but doesn't get you quite as much milage in other areas.

[holywhippet]

It won't help against spells, but deflect arrows and snatch arrows can save you from thrown items that work on touch AC like alchemists fire etc.

[Craig1f]

There really is no way to give a non-dexterous character a high enough touch ac to be reliably effective against touch attacks.

You'll notice that a fully-dexed character in padded armor has the same AC as a character with +1 dex in full-plate. there's a reason, and it's because dexterity rules.

Make a scout, give them high dex, give them combat expertise, rings of deflection, and you'll have a high touch-ac.

[Frosty]

Sure there is. Look at my first post. I can make a character with a dex of 10 that has over 50 touch AC. Cha to touch AC 4 times with even a modest CHA of 30 is touch AC 50 before items. And the best thing is, since you're not wearing armor, you have no max dex bonus. If you can somehow also get an insane dex score, you can boost your touch AC even higher.

[SadisticFishing]

Wilder also lets you grab that Armor feat from Races of Stone that lets you add your armor ac to touch when you're psionically focused.

[Proven_Paradox]

Frosty: I'm not sure that abilities like that stack. I -know- they don't if they have the same names (for example, AC bonus from monk + AC bonus from swordsage != x2 wisdom to AC. Similarly, AC bonus from monk + AC bonus from Fist of the Forest != wis + con to AC.) If they don't have the same name, then I'm not sure, but I think even if they did you'd have a hard time finding a DM that'd allow it.

[lesserarchangel]

Frosty,

I'm not sure multiple versions of the same ability modifier to Touch AC stack - it seems quite broken (e.g. why should a 2nd level character get +6 to AC just from Charisma?). If it is in fact the case, I have an idea for a character concept based on MC Hammer ... (and I got ninja'd)

Regarding the original post: boost all the bonuses that do stack - dodge, deflection, luck, morale, insight, divine, etc. If you can find an Artificier, so much the better. I also recommend making your character small, although it doesn't do much for your offensive or meat-shielding abilities. The Dex bonus is linear, but the bonuses to AC grow exponentially with size category, so I have an idea of a reduced-person melee-optimized pixies.

[Frosty]

I've seen a DM who accepted that kinda thing. Granted, it was a...*high* power campaign (because ya know...killing DEMON lords ain't cake-walk), but the point is, they are *untyped* and *unnamed* bonuses. Untyped bonuses always stack.

Besides, a character so invested in Defense would not have very good offensive capability most likely. It's not like you're a Druid, where you can have your cake and eat it too. I don't really have respect who DMs who ban a lot of trivial things without banning or severely gimping Druids or Clerics for example.

[SadisticFishing]

Untyped bonuses never stack with other untyped bonuses of the same source though.

I never noticed that FotF and Monk AC bonuses don't stack, thank you! <3

[Bag_of_Holding]

Ghost Ward armour enhancement from MIC allows you to keep the enhancement bonus from your armour to your touch AC.


p.s. And of course, there's Scintilating Scale spell from SC, which converts your natural armour bonus to deflection bonus; a huge boon for dragons! AND it's only 2nd level sor/wiz spell, lasting in minutes rather than rounds. Very nice.

[Frosty]

They're not the same source. They're from two different classes. Sure they both key off of Wisdom, but that's irrelevant.

[Proven_Paradox]

They're not the same source. They're from two different classes. Sure they both key off of Wisdom, but that's irrelevant.

Actually, since they have the same name, I'm pretty sure they count as the same source. Both abilities that grant this are called "AC bonus," and thus do not stack. I am almost certain I've seen this as a RAW ruling before, but unfortunately lack the proper state of mind to seek it out at the moment.

Somewhat fuzzier are abilities that provide the same type of bonus but from a different name. Still, I personally would rule them as being the same source if they're based on the same score but with a different name. That's not the RAW, though, at least to my knowledge.

[Bag_of_Holding]

Unless the ability description specifically says that it stacks (like Fist of the Forest from Complete Cheese), it shouldn't stack.

[Frosty]

Untyped bonuses that do not stack typically say so. For example, Crusader Charisma bonus to Will saves specifically says does not stack with Paladin's charisma bonus to all saves.

And, if you're a Hexblade/UA-Variant-paladin/blackguard, you'd get Cha-to-saves like 3 times.

[Bag_of_Holding]

Untyped bonuses that do not stack typically say so. For example, Crusader Charisma bonus to Will saves specifically says does not stack with Paladin's charisma bonus to all saves.

Bloomin' Wizards! They have no love...


Meh, I'll just stick to "Ask your DM", what do you think?

[Frosty]

I always ask my DM. Most DMs have plenty of small houserules and interpretations, and that's perfectly fine. On this thread, I'm just promoting my own interpretation of this rule. I don't see it as too powerful in the sea of full-casters.

[Bag_of_Holding]

I always ask my DM. Most DMs have plenty of small houserules and interpretations, and that's perfectly fine. On this thread, I'm just promoting my own interpretation of this rule. I don't see it as too powerful in the sea of full-casters.

Oh yeah, that too... isn't that why they're known as Wizard of the Coast, not Monk of the Coast, huh? 'cuz that would be pretty funny...

[Person_Man]

Untyped bonuses that do not stack typically say so. For example, Crusader Charisma bonus to Will saves specifically says does not stack with Paladin's charisma bonus to all saves.

And, if you're a Hexblade/UA-Variant-paladin/blackguard, you'd get Cha-to-saves like 3 times.

Hexblade Resistance and Dark Blessing or Divine Grace stack by RAW. So a Hexblade/Blackguard or Hexblade/Paladin of Tyranny or Slaughter would work. It's actually a pretty common combo. But I don't know any DM who would allow a Paladin of Tyranny or Slaughter/Blackguard, since they're essentially the same exact thing, and it involves variant rules, which are extra cheesy.

Besides, its much easier to just take a few Swordsage or Warblade levels. Then you can take Action before Thought and the other maneuvers which replaces Saves with Concentration checks. It's quite easy to boost Concentration checks. Skill Focus plus one level of Exemplar will give you +7 and the ability to Take 10 on your check, for example. The only down side is that its an Immediate Action, which means you can only do it once per turn.



Inertial Armor: Some of the best armor in the game, because it counts for everything and scales.

Deepwarden 2: Con replaces Dex for AC, which counts for touch AC (but not flat footed).

Other people have already mentioned Parrying Shield and Deflective Armor.

I'd also mention that if you pump your Touch AC, Spell Reflection becomes a great idea. Note that you can have Spell Reflection AND Evasion or Improved Evasion (assuming you take another class after the first that grants it). Master Thrower or Thief Acrobat comes to mind. If you wanted to, it'd be pretty easy to put together a Skill Monkey who's untouchable. You wouldn't have anything offensive to do, but you wouldn't get killed either.

Finally, I'd mention that any high level build should have a miss chance of some sort from Greater Invisibility, Displacement, Blinking, etc.

[MorkaisChosen]

Shield Ward, Heavy shield with a decent enhancement bonus and shield specialisation (a prerequisite for Ward) give +3+enhancement bonus to Touch AC. Add a ring of protection (deflection modifier) and you can get a fairly impressive score.

[Kantolin]

Mrr. Most of these responses weren't what I was looking for, but they'll have to do it seems.

So thank you all - I'll take your suggestions/ideas to heart.