Outsider Warforged, how does it work?

[Bag_of_Holding]

Let's say a warforged character has gained Half-fiend template, thus becoming an Outsider rather than a construct. Does it retain its living consturct subtype hence most of its normal traits? Or would it just become an outsider with augmented construct subtype, losing almost all of its original racial traits?

Ruling on SRD seems to indicate the latter, but I just wanted to know what other people thought about 'em.




edit: 'how' not 'out'...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Let's say a warforged character has gained Half-fiend template

Question. How? Half-fiend can be applied to a living corporeal creature, not a corporeal living construct.
Small but important distinction.

[Bag_of_Holding]

Question. How? Half-fiend can be applied to a living corporeal creature, not a corporeal living construct.
Small but important distinction.

Oh well, for argument's sake let's say it has somehow became an Outsider, how about that?

[Nebo_]

Question. How? Half-fiend can be applied to a living corporeal creature, not a corporeal living construct.
Small but important distinction.

Constructs are creatures, too.

Subtypes are almost impossible to lose, so you retain the 'living' subtype, against all reason. Unless the template says that you lose all original subtypes, then you keep them.

[Collin152]

Question. How? Half-fiend can be applied to a living corporeal creature, not a corporeal living construct.
Small but important distinction.

Living construct.
Half-fiend can be applied to any living creature.
Where is the issue?

[Admiral Squish]

Oh well, for argument's sake let's say it has somehow became an Outsider, how about that?

An imp got caught in the gears of the creation forge, and before the artificers could pull it out, out comes our friendly little warforged half-fiend.

By RAW, it would lose all the features of living construct. However, by logic, it would just gain half-fiend traits on top of everything else. Whatever the DM decides.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Living construct is a template that removes many of the benefits/disadvantages of being alive. I'm AFB right now, but I think it removes the ability to add templates. Even if it doesn't specifically, Warforged don't breed. By RAI you would have to do a lot of creative manipulation to explain how you became half-anything.

[Nebo_]

Living construct is a template that removes many of the benefits/disadvantages of being alive. I'm AFB right now, but I think it removes the ability to add templates. Even if it doesn't specifically, Warforged don't breed. By RAI you would have to do a lot of creative manipulation to explain how you became half-anything.

No, it isn't. 'Living' is a subtype, not a template. He's asking a question according to RAW, not your RAI. Please don't make assumptions and try to pass them off as fact.

[Collin152]

Living construct is a template that removes many of the benefits/disadvantages of being alive. I'm AFB right now, but I think it removes the ability to add templates. Even if it doesn't specifically, Warforged don't breed. By RAI you would have to do a lot of creative manipulation to explain how you became half-anything.

An Archfiend did it.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

No, it isn't. 'Living' is a subtype, not a template. He's asking a question according to RAW, not your RAI. Please don't make assumptions and try to pass them off as fact.

After a quick search for the wording, Living Construct is a subtype that was not accounted for in the original printing of Half-fiend. A Warforged is a construct, and therefore counts as a construct for the purposes of applying templates. "Living Construct", as written, has no effect on whether or not a Warforged is alive other than in the situations that it states.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

An Archfiend Wizzerd did it.

Fix'd, by an archfiend.

[Collin152]

Fix'd, by an archfiend.

Being a wizard doesn't make him any more fiendish, and therefore no more likely to sire a half-fiend...

[Mewtarthio]

Fiends are avatars of Evil, composed entirely of hatred and destruction. How can they breed with humans?

For another explanation:

• Evil Artificers spent a whole lot of money building a construct meant to emulate a fiend.
• An unfortunate fiend got his arm chopped off in the Warforged Factory, and it got mixed in with the other stuff.
• Magic. They used magic to infuse gunk from the lower planes into a Warforged at its construction.

[Nebo_]

After a quick search for the wording, Living Construct is a subtype that was not accounted for in the original printing of Half-fiend.

That's where most of the weird crap in D&D comes from: not accounting for things that are printed later.

A Warforged is a construct, and therefore counts as a construct for the purposes of applying templates. "Living Construct", as written, has no effect on whether or not a Warforged is alive other than in the situations that it states.

Again, Half-Fiend applies to a living creature. What part of "Living" doesn't mean living to you?

[Dode]

A Psuedonatural Warforged, according to e-tools is an Outsider (Living Construct) and is doable.

A Half-Fiend Warforged isn't.

The difference is that one can be applied to "any living corporeal creature" and the other says "any corporeal creature". I suppose it depends on how literal you take "Living Construct" subtype to be.

[Collin152]

A Psuedonatural Warforged, according to e-tools is an Outsider (Living Construct) and is doable.

A Half-Fiend Warforged isn't.

The difference is that one can be applied to "any living corporeal creature" and the other says "any corporeal creature". I suppose it depends on how literal you take "Living Construct" subtype to be.

I forget. DO warforged have constitution scores?

[Nebo_]

I forget. DO warforged have constitution scores?

Yes, they even get a bonus.

[Chronicled]

I forget. DO warforged have constitution scores?

Yes, they do. And a Con bonus.

Edit: Gah, I almost beat you to the punch there, Nebo_.

[Collin152]

Yes, they even get a bonus.

Then they're alive. Simple as that.

[Nebo_]

Nemo_

>.< Nebo. And the _ is silent.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Again, Half-Fiend applies to a living creature. What part of "Living" doesn't mean living to you?

On a re-read, it doesn't say either way whether or not they count as living for the purposes of templates. They are constructs that "combine aspects of both constructs and living creatures", and the page goes on to list which immunities they do and don't get, but it never actually says if they should be considered living, construct, both, or neither for the purposes of templates or prestige classes. Annoying. Do the Eberron books ever go into more detail?
Edit:Ninja'd by Dobe.

[Chronicled]

>.< Nebo. And the _ is silent.

The letters are so close together... only an "n" to seperate them...

The _ was just for fun. To be fair, I didn't try and speak it aloud.

[Nebo_]

On a re-read, it doesn't say either way whether or not they count as living for the purposes of templates. They are constructs that "combine aspects of both constructs and living creatures", and the page goes on to list which immunities they do and don't get, but it never actually says if they should be considered living, construct, both, or neither for the purposes of templates or prestige classes. Annoying. Do the Eberron books ever go into more detail?

No, but nothing does. Humans for example have nothing that specifies that they're living creatures. It's common sense; just like logically deducing that a living construct is living.

[Collin152]

On a re-read, it doesn't say either way whether or not they count as living for the purposes of templates. They are constructs that "combine aspects of both constructs and living creatures", and the page goes on to list which immunities they do and don't get, but it never actually says if they should be considered living, construct, both, or neither for the purposes of templates or prestige classes. Annoying. Do the Eberron books ever go into more detail?
Edit:Ninja'd by Dobe.

They have a constitution score, and as such are living.

[holywhippet]

If I was going for an explanation of a warforged who is an outsider I'd say the builder was recruited for the blood war and made an army of them. Most were killed and the builder was assassinated by the other side. The parts used in construction all came from the lower planes which makes it an outsider.

[Nerd-o-rama]

The Warforged becomes an Outsider[Augmented Construct, Living Construct, Native]. It retains its original traits and adds the Half-Fiend ones.

What's the issue here?

[Solo]

They have a constitution score, and as such are living.

I'm pretty sure things with Con. scores are living, and things without are dead.

Undead and Golems, for example, have no Con score.

[Illiterate Scribe]

I also seem to remember that there's a spell that grants the 'half-fiend' template. I'll look it up.

Edit:Aha, got it - very quickly, as well.

From the Lost Empires of Faerun excerpt on teh web -

Nar Fiendbond
Transmutation
Level: Cleric 7, sorcerer/wizard 7
Components: V, S, M/DF, XP
Casting Time: 1 hour
Range: Touch
Target: One humanoid with Int 4 or higher
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

You turn the subject into a half-fiend by imbuing it with the essence of the infernal planes. The subject can have no more character levels than you do, and it must either be willing to undergo the transformation or be restrained in some manner. Upon completion of the spell, the subject can attempt a Will save to avoid gaining the half-fiend template. Failure (or a waived saving throw) indicates that the subject's form visibly changes, gaining physical qualities that show its fiendish nature (horns, tail, wings, and the like). In addition, the subject's type changes to outsider, and the moral component of its alignment changes to evil.

The newly created half-fiend also gains a +4 level adjustment, raising the XP required for it to achieve its next character level. For example, a 5th-level sorcerer who becomes a half-fiend by means of this spell becomes a 9th-level character who needs 45,000 XP to gain his sixth class level.

You cannot cast Narfiendbond on yourself.

Arcane Material Component: Precious gems with a total value equal to the XP cost of the spell.

XP Cost: 500 XP per character level of the half-fiend created.

So there's how we grant our warforged the template.

[JBento]

Solo is, as usually, right (though unfortunately without the jokingly manner I have come to expect and chuckle with). Presence or absence of a Constitution score is what defines a creature as living or not. This is RAW in Core - it's lurking in the PHB glossary I believe, though I'm AFB right now and can't confirm.

However, I don't think the Half-fiend template can be applied to a Warforged as it states it's an inherited template, and Warforged don't reproduce.

EDIT: @Illitterate Scribe: Target: Humanoid. No warforged allowed.

[Illiterate Scribe]

However, I don't think the Half-fiend template can be applied to a Warforged as it states it's an inherited template, and Warforged don't reproduce.

That's what Nar Fiendbond is for.