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    Default Unofficial 4ed Demo

    Well, I was browsing another RPG portal and I stumbled upon this, which is claimed to be an unofficial 4ed demo that allows you to create you own 1st level character. I'm currently reading through it, and I hope it wasn't posted anywhere yet. Generally, it looks like it's been pasted together from various materials WoTC put up here and there. So despite my early enthusiasm, only few new things here.
    Last edited by Morty; 2008-03-26 at 04:46 PM.
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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    Nice find! I don't have access to the WOTC site during the day, and this helps immensely to put everything into one place. Thanks for the link!

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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    Yeah, that's the PHB Lite that was by ENWorlders; I think someone posted a link to it a few days ago here.

    There is also a monsters compilation and a few fan made modules based on the info available.

    I'm using it for a demo game or two to show my D&D group what it's all about.

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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    Here's a quick question - when was the Halfling bonus on saves vs. fear revealed. I like it (and its very Kender-esque), but I hadn't seen that anywhere besides the "PHB Lite" posted earlier.
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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    Quote Originally Posted by rtg0922 View Post
    Here's a quick question - when was the Halfling bonus on saves vs. fear revealed. I like it (and its very Kender-esque), but I hadn't seen that anywhere besides the "PHB Lite" posted earlier.
    I believe it was revealed at D&DXP.

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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Friendly View Post
    There is also a monsters compilation and a few fan made modules based on the info available.
    Could you link those please?
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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    Monster compilation

    Modules:
    Raiders of Oakhurst (Olgar Shiverstone et al) http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=220317
    Second Son (Mike Shea et al) http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=220473
    Return of the Burning Plague (Chris Nightwing et al) http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=220679

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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    Thanks! These should be an interesting lunch break read.
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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    This is fascinating. I'm just glancing over it so far to see what it says on questions I'd had. Is it implied that a Wizard's cantrips are all available as at-will powers all at once? That's pretty sweet.

    I'm very much liking features like "if you use light armour or less, you can add either Dex or Int" and the ability to choose between different abilities adding to defences. Apparently Wizards are now absurdly SAD...

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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    Apparently Wizards are now absurdly SAD...
    Weren't they always? Spending year after year shuttered away from the world with no friends but the long dead authors of the musty tomes they must study. So lonely, so lonely.

    I'm sorry, I just couldn't help myself.
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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    Apparently Wizards are now absurdly SAD...
    Not necesarrily. Remember that what we see here is just what the authors of this documents put together from WoTC materials. For all we know, there might be some wizard class features or spells that require other mental stats.
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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    Quote Originally Posted by M0rt View Post
    Not necesarrily. Remember that what we see here is just what the authors of this documents put together from WoTC materials. For all we know, there might be some wizard class features or spells that require other mental stats.
    Absolutely; let us not forget the much maligned Golden Wyvern Adept feat which allows you to omit a number of squares of an area spell up to your WIS mod.

    Also, assuming Wizards have a somewhat limited skill selection as they do in 3e, they may need those extra stats to get boosts to their untrained skills. From what we have seen the skill monkey is dead and everyone is the skill monkey.

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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    [QUOTE=kamikasei;4110783]
    I'm very much liking features like "if you use light armour or less, you can add either Dex or Int" and the ability to choose between different abilities adding to defences. /QUOTE]

    This bothers me. While I generally rally like the fact that intelligence finally can have some use in combat, and I usually tend to play light armored guys (ranger), I don't know, why the hell you can't use Int with heavy armor too.

    It would be even more logical - with plate armor you don't dodge blows so much, you rather take them in the place's where they won't do any harm, keep joints of armor away from opponent, keep enemy with pick away, and enemy with halberd close.

    And generally they simplified armor a lot. Few characters were ever using medium armors, indeed, but i think that they've gone too far. At least I hope that they will be more types of armors, both light and heavy.
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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    I think we are going to see higher end powers for Defenders that include increasing their AC bonus from Armor. I also think that Heavy Armors are going to be significantly greater than their light friends. (well that's already obvious from the PHB-lite; the weakest heavy armor is twice as much armor as the best light armor)

    I think the decision to not allow Dex/Int for Heavy is a balance one. Since they eliminated ASF, it would be too abusive to have the Wizard in Full-Plate with a better AC than the Fighter in Full-Plate. As I said above, I think we are going to see replacement bonuses for characters that are "supposed" to use heavy armor.

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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    It's looking like at most ANYONE is going to need 2 high attributes (prime stat stat+con), though I think the paladin needs 3 (Str+Cha+Con). But, yeah, most people only need one.

    A always, I'm liking some things I'm seeing (pg. 33: You fall in lava, you die. No save. WHOO!), disliking others (the move away from "real-world" armors - no 1/2-plate, studded leather, or chain shirts now), and am ambivalent about the rest. Same as any other gaming system.
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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordguy View Post
    (pg. 33: You fall in lava, you die. No save. WHOO!)
    ZOMG 4e IS BECOMING MARIO
    Last edited by kamikasei; 2008-03-27 at 11:02 AM.

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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordguy View Post
    It's looking like at most ANYONE is going to need 2 high attributes (prime stat stat+con), though I think the paladin needs 3 (Str+Cha+Con). But, yeah, most people only need one.
    Rogue have three listed key abilities, so given WoTC's trend to streamline and standardise classes, it's possible that all of them will have three "key abilites" that most of their exploits/prayers/spells depend on.
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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    It's like 4e is on Coccaine, Extasy, and Meth all at once. And then it took stupid pills on top of it. I think I'll stick with 3.5 instead.
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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    Quote Originally Posted by Triaxx View Post
    It's like 4e is on Coccaine, Extasy, and Meth all at once. And then it took stupid pills on top of it. I think I'll stick with 3.5 instead.
    Quite the in-depth analysis there. Why not just have posted "4e sucks! 3e rules!11" instead and been done with it?

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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    I'm confused about this Ranger power:

    Careful Attack Ranger Attack 1
    You study the enemy, looking for a gap in his
    defenses. Only when you find it do you strike.
    At-Will ✦ Martial, Weapon
    Standard Action Ranged weapon
    Target: One creature
    Attack: ranged or melee vs. AC
    Hit: 1[W] damage.
    How is this any different from a normal, basic attack? Standard Action, targets AC, does 1W damage (W is the new abbreviation for weapon damage. 2W is twice the weapon's base damage, and so forth).

    So... yeah. Am I missing something?
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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Friendly View Post
    From what we have seen the skill monkey is dead and everyone is the skill monkey.
    This kinda makes me sad, really. I mean, sure, 2 + INT is absurdly low, and fighters needed more class skills, but... I like skill monkeys.

    [hyperbole]If we're going to give everyone skills, then we should give everyone magic! And turning! And armor and weapon proficiencies! Heck, forget using different classes, we should ALL play factotums! ALL of us![/hyperbole]

    ...seriously, though, the all-factotum team would be kinda cool. And you'd only need one feat. For everyone. Font of inspiration x infinity. It'd simplify the game immensely. And since crunch doesn't depend at all on fluff, you could just have your factotums specialize slightly and flavor themselves as clerics or wizards or rogues or what-have-you. It'd be awesome![/stealth hyperbole]
    Last edited by Ascension; 2008-03-27 at 03:39 PM.
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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonmuncher View Post
    I'm confused about this Ranger power:



    How is this any different from a normal, basic attack? Standard Action, targets AC, does 1W damage (W is the new abbreviation for weapon damage. 2W is twice the weapon's base damage, and so forth).

    So... yeah. Am I missing something?
    It falsely forget to list the inherent +4 to hit.

    The Pregen character Ranger gets +4 to hit over his basic attack. I believe the Demo guide maker believed they would errata that +4 out so he took it out now himself.

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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    Well, this demo has actually changed my mind about 4ed... Before I thought it was utter crap, and now I'm intrigued to see the changes. So, now I'm not sure will I play it even. I still think it's apsurd to have stupid core classes like Warlord (I woke up one day and decided I'm gonna be a... Warlord? It just doesn't fit. Why do prestige classes even exist then), and the fluff changing is blasphemy (Nine Hells 'sank' into Elemental Chaos. What the devil?)... Did they change the way actions are in 4ed? I didn't run into anything describing move and standard actions... And what is with wizards - how do spells work? All I see is some rather weak spells as daily uses of 'powers'...
    Common sense is not so common.

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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbash View Post
    Well, this demo has actually changed my mind about 4ed... Before I thought it was utter crap, and now I'm intrigued to see the changes. So, now I'm not sure will I play it even. I still think it's apsurd to have stupid core classes like Warlord (I woke up one day and decided I'm gonna be a... Warlord? It just doesn't fit. Why do prestige classes even exist then), and the fluff changing is blasphemy (Nine Hells 'sank' into Elemental Chaos. What the devil?)...

    Did they change the way actions are in 4ed? I didn't run into anything describing move and standard actions... And what is with wizards - how do spells work? All I see is some rather weak spells as daily uses of 'powers'...
    You have 3 basic actions every turn:
    Minor, Move, and Standard. Similar to Saga.

    Wizards use same mechanics as everyone else except 1. They get more than 1 daily at 1st, but have to choose after they rest which they prepare.

    Example Wizard has sleep or Acid Arrow:
    Sleep: if
    it hits: makes them slowed (movement lowered to 10 feet) until make save and at end of turn they roll save as normal for the secondary effect, if they do not make their save against the secondary, they are unconscious.
    Unconscious =auto hit/critical in melee. So easy killing. Still slowed... but I doubt that matters

    If Miss: slowed till make save.

    Pro: They are slowed no matter what. Standard action to cast, no HD limit.
    Cons: They have to fail save to be unconscious, so it affects them the turn after at least. 1/day use.

    Acid Arrow: If
    Hit: 2d8+5 damage + ongoing damage =5 (they get a save at end to not take more each round). Plus a secondary target (s). Since you take the ongoing before a save, actual damage = 2d8+10.
    Secondaries: 1d8+5 with ongoing 5 also.

    Miss: 1/2 damage that hit would deal, ongoing 2 (save end).

    Pro: area damage if hit primary plus ongoing damage. Even if miss deal damage over time.
    Con: one target hit if miss primary, not AoE anymore. Only have 1/day use.

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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbash View Post
    Well, this demo has actually changed my mind about 4ed... Before I thought it was utter crap, and now I'm intrigued to see the changes. So, now I'm not sure will I play it even. I still think it's apsurd to have stupid core classes like Warlord (I woke up one day and decided I'm gonna be a... Warlord? It just doesn't fit. Why do prestige classes even exist then), and the fluff changing is blasphemy (Nine Hells 'sank' into Elemental Chaos. What the devil?)... Did they change the way actions are in 4ed? I didn't run into anything describing move and standard actions... And what is with wizards - how do spells work? All I see is some rather weak spells as daily uses of 'powers'...
    1. There are no prestige classes in 4e. (Though yeah, I'd have preferred Marshal, since that's what the Warlord is based on.)

    2. The Nine Hells are in the Astral Sea. The Abyss is what sank into the Elemental Chaos.

    3. Actions work pretty much the same. Full-round actions, standard actions, move actions, minor actions, and free actions. And the spells aren't complete, these were only taken from the pregenerated characters that were used in D&D Experience. Cantrips are at will, while there are some spells that can be used per encounter and others per day.


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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbash View Post
    Well, this demo has actually changed my mind about 4ed... Before I thought it was utter crap, and now I'm intrigued to see the changes. So, now I'm not sure will I play it even. I still think it's apsurd to have stupid core classes like Warlord (I woke up one day and decided I'm gonna be a... Warlord? It just doesn't fit. Why do prestige classes even exist then), and the fluff changing is blasphemy (Nine Hells 'sank' into Elemental Chaos. What the devil?)... Did they change the way actions are in 4ed? I didn't run into anything describing move and standard actions... And what is with wizards - how do spells work? All I see is some rather weak spells as daily uses of 'powers'...
    Wizard powers are "spells". Wizard daily powers are no weaker or stronger than anyone else's daily powers.

    "Warlord" is what the class is called. The character might consider himself a "warrior", a graduate of a military academy, a tactician, etc. I don't see how waking up and wanting to be a Warlord is any different from waking up and wanting to be a Paladin or a Wizard or a Ranger or a Marshal.

    Why is the fluff-change blasphemy? A lot of the fluff sucked.

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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    It falsely forget to list the inherent +4 to hit.

    The Pregen character Ranger gets +4 to hit over his basic attack. I believe the Demo guide maker believed they would errata that +4 out so he took it out now himself.
    I'll actually be adding the +4 to attack back in the next revision (1.3). The errata should have been to remove only the +4 damage (from dexterity), but keep the +4 to hit.

    Keep an eye on this thread for the most up to date version. I'm taking errata and suggestions there to improve the document.

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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    Wizards use same mechanics as everyone else except 1. They get more than 1 daily at 1st, but have to choose after they rest which they prepare.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but does that mean that preparing spells stays much the same?

    There are no prestige classes in 4e.
    Ouch. This will hurt.

    "Warlord" is what the class is called. The character might consider himself a "warrior", a graduate of a military academy, a tactician, etc. I don't see how waking up and wanting to be a Warlord is any different from waking up and wanting to be a Paladin or a Wizard or a Ranger or a Marshal.
    I mislike most of core classes other than those from PHB (except for Scout, Warlock and some others). I just don't see how can anyone become a Marshal/Warlord/Whatever-mixed-class-they-made-up (hexblade or some such) at first level. That's why there are prestige classes, it kinda ruins their point if you can take it at first level.

    Why is the fluff-change blasphemy? A lot of the fluff sucked.
    Because, suddenly, there are no planes in Faerun just some alternate dimensions called Feywild and whatsnot. And suddenly, Tieflings aren't descendants of Demons/Devils but some ancient race that made a deal with demons. Suddenly, Faerun is Faerun only in name and characters they don't want to kill because they earn money off of them!
    Common sense is not so common.

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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbash View Post
    Because, suddenly, there are no planes in Faerun just some alternate dimensions called Feywild and whatsnot. And suddenly, Tieflings aren't descendants of Demons/Devils but some ancient race that made a deal with demons. Suddenly, Faerun is Faerun only in name and characters they don't want to kill because they earn money off of them!
    Yes, the fall of the planes is sad thing. The Great Wheel was... well great. Now we got some standard, boring stuff. Why?
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    Default Re: Unofficial 4ed Demo

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbash View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but does that mean that preparing spells stays much the same?
    The Daily ones, more or less. There are fewer spells; noncombat spells are largely in the realm of Rituals, which take a bit more time/quiet.

    Ouch. This will hurt.
    Why?
    4E now has "Paragon paths", which characters take simultaneously with their class progression. Every character picks one; you might be a Wizard/Spellstorm Mage or Fighter/Iron Vanguard once you hit 11th.

    As a bonus, these just have to be balanced against each other, not against various class abilities.

    I mislike most of core classes other than those from PHB (except for Scout, Warlock and some others). I just don't see how can anyone become a Marshal/Warlord/Whatever-mixed-class-they-made-up (hexblade or some such) at first level. That's why there are prestige classes, it kinda ruins their point if you can take it at first level.
    Like the PHB is better? Why can you be a Paladin at first level (when you can barely fight orcs), rather than it being a fighter/cleric prestige class? Why can you be a Druid at first level?
    I'm not sure how it "ruins the point" of a Marshal if you can be one from first level. A class is a set of abilities; a low-level Marshal has much fewer than a high-level one, just like a low-level Fighter is worse than a high-level one.

    Because, suddenly, there are no planes in Faerun just some alternate dimensions called Feywild and whatsnot. And suddenly, Tieflings aren't descendants of Demons/Devils but some ancient race that made a deal with demons. Suddenly, Faerun is Faerun only in name and characters they don't want to kill because they earn money off of them!
    Faerun is having a Spellplague to explain some of the changes. The cosmology may be changing somewhat, but is unlikely to change much. It's a campaign setting--what you're looking at is the default cosmology. It won't apply to Faerun any more than it will to Eberron.

    Faerun is changing somewhat, but not entirely. It's changed before and it will again. The 4e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting/Player's Guide will tell us how exactly things work, but you can bet that, say, Faerunian tieflings will still be demonic descendants rather than being eliminated and replaced with the new racial fluff.

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