Dwarven Defender Help

[CheshireCatAW]

My friend loves dwarves, they are his favorite character type and they fit his personality to a T. He really want's to go Dwarven Defender, as he feels it fits his concept extremely well, however, we both know that Fighter is kind of an "eh" class, and were wondering if we could get some suggestions on what he should try.

He was thinking Fighter 5/ Weapon Master 5 (I think that's what it is called, though I could be wrong)/ Dwarven Defender 10.

I have heard that the Book of Nine Swords would hold some promise, but I don't recall which class or discipline combination was suggested for a synergistic effect.

I think he'd really like some help with this, and I'd appreciate any help I could refer to him.

Many Thanks

[Adumbration]

What level are you starting? What books do you have? What are you looking for, more power, more fluff, a way of competing with casters?

[Cuddly]

The problem with the Dwarven Defender is that to use his main ability, he's not allowed to move, in a game where mobility is pretty ftw.

Finding a way to force enemies to enter melee with him and/or keep enemies from fleeing will be key.

[Nebo_]

"Look, it's a Dwarven Defender! Walk briskly away!"

He was thinking Fighter 5/ Weapon Master 5 (I think that's what it is called, though I could be wrong)/ Dwarven Defender 10.

No! Odd Fighter levels are not allowed, ever.

Dwarven Defender really aren't that great if your DM runs monsters with any sense at all. Mobility is far too useful to give up.

[kamikasei]

Isn't there a PrC in ToB which is basically Dwarven Defender for Crusaders? Same basic concept, but instead of just standing there you actually give them reasons to try and hit you and make trouble for them if they don't?

[Xefas]

There's already a dwarf-only "I'm an impenetrable wall of death when I'm standing still" class in the Tome of Battle. It's called Deepstone Sentinel. The earliest you can get into it is 11th level.

I suggest Warblade 10/Deepstone Sentinel 5/Anything 5

Just get the Stone Power feat, pump the Balance skill, and stock up on Stone Dragon maneuvers and at least one Stone Dragon stance.

[RTGoodman]

As Cuddly said, Dwarven Defender is not that great because if you're trying to defend, someone can just, you know, walk around you. Even if you end your Defensive Stance to move to them, you take a Str penalty and they can just move again if you use another DS next to them.

I'd highly suggest taking a look at the Knight class from Player's Handbook 2 if you have it. It has abilities that force enemies to attack it, which is ideal for a PrC focused on being defensive but not being mobile. Also, Knights get a ton of other defense-focused abilities and you can alleviate some feat problems by using one of the Knight bonus feats to get the required Endurance feat (which, in general, is bad).

Actually, now that I look at it, all of the required feats for DD are terrible. I'd at least see if you're DM would let you take Improved Toughness instead of Toughness, which is a little better.

For a build, maybe go Knight 6+/Exotic Weaponmaster X/Dwarven Defender 10. Maybe add a level or two of Fighter for some extra feats. Make Con, Cha, and Str your top priorities, and then maybe Wis. You don't really need more than 12 in Dex, since you'll probably be using full plate anyway.

If you use Tome of Battle, consider going with the Crusader class. It only has access to three of the nine martial schools, but one of them is focuses on helping allies and a lot of the other maneuvers and stances are very defensive in nature. With the way multiclassing works out for them, you can also try Knight 6/Crusader 4/Dwarven Defender, but spread the Crusader levels out so you can at least getf some higher level maneuvers and stances.


EDIT: Multi-ninja'd! But they did mention the Deepstone Sentinel, which I completely forgot. Of course, it requires 13 ranks in Balance, so you're sort of limited in what classes enter through. I know the Martial Adept classes probably all have it, but outside of that I'm not sure of any melee-oriented class that does.

[Admiral Squish]

I know this one! Knight from PHBII. Defense-based class designed to make sure the enemy doesnt go around you, and comes equipped with all those nifty knight's challenges for drawing in your foe. Armor spikes, improved shield bash, spiked shields for one big hedgehog effect.

EDIT: Damn, ninja'd. I think that's the first time I've ever been ninja'd.

[Cuddly]

I don't recommend Knight, if only because you have to put points in charisma, a score dwarves get a penalty to, and wouldn't have any use outside of the stupid taunt ability. Now, if you could somehow pick up some charisma to saves or something, it may be worthwhile.

Personally, I'd skip fighter and the other feat based martial classes in pre-ToB and look at a Deepstone Sentinel build. Many ToB maneuvers set DC based on str, rather than some worthless mental stat.

Fullplate is crap unless you get it made out of mithral, in which case, it's the next best thing to a mithral breastplate. Adamantine fullplate won't be useful for a dwarven defender, since damage reductions don't stack, RAW (though some of them really should). The +2 vs touch attacks from a higher dex can be really helpful, esp vs. enemies who have low BAB. For every one point of touch AC you get, a caster needs two levels to meet you with BAB.

[Admiral Squish]

For touch AC the solution is simple. IT takes three feats, but it's usually worth it. You need: Wild Talent, Heavy Armor Optimization (Races of Stone), and Deflective Armor (Also Races of Stone). This allows you to decrease the armor penalty from your fullplate by one, increase the AC bonus by one, and add all of that armor bonus and enhancement bonus to your touch AC. I'm not sure if it would work with mithril fullplate, since that's technically medium, but it should work out fine. You could skip on wild talet and just take a level or two in psychic warrior. Expansion would complement the DD's defenseive stance and the Knight's Bulwark of Defense VERY nicely.

[Chronos]

Actually, now that I look at it, all of the required feats for DD are terrible. I'd at least see if you're DM would let you take Improved Toughness instead of Toughness, which is a little better.

Yeah... Let's take a feat which is only marginally useful, and only if you're playing a small-HD class at low levels, and make it a prerequisite for prestige class with a d12 HD, typically entered through a class with a d10 HD, and restricted to a race that has a Con bonus.

[Azerian Kelimon]

It's useless until you introduce a classic feat: Superior/Master Toughness. Gimme TWO increases in the HD!

'Cause that's what Improved toughness is. An increase in the HD by one step. It's one of those feats you pick if you have spares, because it's a nice bonus.

[Person_Man]

Psychic Warrior 8/Deepwarden 2/Dwarvern Defender 10

Psychic Warrior for bonus feats and Expansion, which will greatly increase his reach. Inertial Armor fixes the Touch AC problem.

Deepwarden for Con to AC.

Dwarvern Defender is quite a weak PrC, but I won't argue with fluff choices. But just so you know, there are much better Dwarf-centric options out there. What books are you willing to consider?

[Keld Denar]

Not a Dwarven Defender, but still a very Dwarfly Dwarf
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1007894

Dwarven Urgosh Flurry Fury!
Dwarf 28 PB Str 16, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6
Final stats with items Str 26 (30 rage), Dex 10, Con 24, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6
1 Ranger1 Track, Endurance Favored Enemy: Arcanists (get 4 ranks in prereq skills, 2 ranks Kn:Relig xclass)
2 Fighter1 Power Attack (5th rank in Climb + Jump)
3 Fighter2 Hold the Line, Weapon Focus: Urgosh (5th rank Kn: Dung xclass)
4 Barbarian1 Spirit Lion Totem (5th rank in Survival class + 3 Craft:Weapon)
5 Barbarian2 Uncanny Dodge (3rd + 4th rank Kn:Relig xclass)
6 Deepwarden1 Track again... True Believer (Kn:Arc 3 ranks)
7 Deepwarden2 Stonewarden (Kn:Arc 4th rank xclass Spellcraft 2 ranks xclass)
8 Pious Templar1 Mettle (Spellcraft 3rd rank xclass)
9 Pious Templar2 Improved Init (Spellcraft 4th rank xclass)
10 Pious Templar3 Weapon Spec:Urgosh
11 Exotic Weapon Master1 Flurry of Strikes Trick
12 Pious Templar4 Leap Attack Melee Weapon Mastery: Slashing
13 Occult Slayer1
14 Occult Slayer2
15 Occult Slayer3 Slashing Fury
16 Occult Slayer4
17 Occult Slayer5
18 Pious Templar5 Battle Blessing
19 Pious Templar6
20 Pious Templar7

What you get:
Con to AC (AC 37 with +5 mith fullplate and +5 animated shield, 41 vs giants)
Mettle
7th level PT casting as swift actions (spells like Righteous Fury and Rhino's Rush)
Mind Blank
Spell Reflection 2x/day
40 movement in Mith Fullplate while Hasted.
Pounce
DR 2/-
Very strong fort save, decent will save, weakish reflex save (meh)
Full 20/20 BAB
Smite Attack (good for final iterative)
Always set for a charge (Hold the Line) + Double damage from Urgosh spike
Best part is: with Haste, feats, str, and +5 weapon, attacks at +30, +30, +30, +30, +25, +20, +15 before misc buffs.

The trick is to use the Urgosh as a normal 2handed weapon. Its still a double exotic weapon and thus qualifies for EWM Flurry of Strikes. So, you get the extra attack at -2 with all of the 2handed weapon goodness. Stack on the extra attack at -5 from Slashing Fury for 2 extra attacks at -7. WF and MWM and Haste offset that by 4 points to a meer -3 modifier on your full attack sequence. Once you get stuff like Bardsong and Recitation added on, you can freely PA for almost all of your BAB and do massive damage.

[Telok]

Personal suggestion, if the Dwarven Defender fits you may as well go with it.

Suggested build would be Fighter 2, Psychic Warrior 2, Warblade 4, Dwarven Defender 10, anyPrC 3.

Two fighter bonus feats, two psychic or fighter bonus feats, two first level psychic powers, three maneuvers of first or second level, two third level maneuvers, one stance of first level, one third level stance, and all ten levels of defender.

Feats: Dodge, Improved Toughness (DM permission), Endurance, Heavy Armor Optimization, Deflective Armor, Shield Specialization, Shield Ward, EWP-Whip Dagger. You will be very hard to hit with anything except spells.

Spiked Armor, Whip Dagger, psionic Expansion, and a selection of maneuvers for offense. Be sure to keep some throwing weapons or a bow with you too, the feat Brutal Throw may help.

The thing about Dwarven Defenders is that they aren't an attack class, they don't run around beating the crap out of things without regard to their allies. What they do, and do well, is defend their allies by standing in front of them. Because Defenders don't move real fast those allies may have to scoot around and reposition themselves, but there's this nice safe area near the Defender to do that in.

D&D isn't a competition between players and DMs trying to kill each other all the time. It's a cooperative game played by a group of (usually) friends who are having fun. You don't need a maximized, optimal, uber-character to play or be effective.

[CheshireCatAW]

Telok hit the nail on the head in his last paragraph. We have a close gaming group, and we like having strengths that minimize our friends' weaknesses. I don't think it'd surprise you to know that the Archer-Ranger and the Wizard love hanging around next to him.

Between the two of us, we have all 3.5 books, and a smattering of 3.0 ones. He does occasionally wish that he would do more damage, so if you have any suggestions for that, it would also be appreciated.

He likes the feeling of being the dwarf with the mountain plate. Huge defence/immovable object thing, but if you have any suggestions you think might jibe with that which include another PrC or classes, I'll take the suggestions.

Thank you to everyone who's offered their help so far, there's a ton of great ideas there that I'm going to have to stew over.

[streakster]

I'd be a DeepStone Sentinel. It's more dwarf than the Dwarven defender. Of course, the only one I ever built was a dwarf who could only say "dwarf" (You know Pokemon? If one was named Dwarf, that was what that guy sounded like) who, due to low scores, was functionally retarded. But it was tremondous fun anyhow.

Walking along: Dwarf, dwarf dwarf dwarf dwarf dwarf dwarf dwarf (To the tune of I've been working on the railroad.)
Attacking: DWARF!
Happy: Dwarf dwarf!
Inquisitive: Dwa...?

[Chronos]

Inertial Armor fixes the Touch AC problem.

Only for incorporeal attackers. Touch spells, trip attempts, etc., still ignore it, since it's an armor bonus.