you're just as bad as they are...maybe

[Jayngfet]

I'm making a world where archons and devils collectivly (as a society) act almost identical, concentrating on the lawful element and taking over huge swatches of the material plane, I've finished with the devils and was wondering...


Just how bad can I make archons (lawful neutral types) who kill everyone who registers evil or steps too far out of line.

just how vindictive and fanatic can I make them(the more apparently evil the better I want them to make -blocked by godwins law- cringe)


how far is too evil and going too far.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Make them active Modrons. The bureaucratic insanity is worse than any attack.

[Corsec1337]

Think Spanish Inquistion. Nothing says evil and good like the grand ol' Inquistion.

[Azerian Kelimon]

But NOBODY expects the spanish inquisition!

*Commence hurricane of Python references and jokes*.

[Tempest Fennac]

I'm pretty certain they were just LE. I doubt that actual LG beings would want anything to do with Devils, but LN beings possibly would cooperate with a plan like that.

[an kobold]

Well, since you are focusing on the law, have them use a massive bureaucracy as suggested earlier. Have blocks full of courthouses and holding pens for prisoners. Trials should not be just show, but not much more either. For example, maybe have four different archons and a human paladin cast detect evil on an accused criminal and wizards scrying the events of the crime in question. And if the criminal is evil or guilty of the crime, no hesitation. It's clear they did it and/or are evil, off with their head. Maybe have two doors at the back of each courtroom. One leads to the streets, for the rare occasion an accused is innocent. The other leads to the elemental plane of fire or some other suitably nasty place . No mess, no disposal, it's the other planes' problem now.

[UglyPanda]

Just go with Archons who just consider that policing the universe is their job and that nobody should keep them from doing it. They kill at the first sign of resistance and beat enemies into submission if they are needed alive. More and you end up with dictators, which are clearly Lawful Evil. Also, are you trying to beat your players over the head with moral relativism, or do you just want annoying Archon NPCs?

[Learnedguy]

But NOBODY expects the spanish inquisition!

*Commence hurricane of Python references and jokes*.

Let's not go there. It's a silly place

[Xefas]

There are two substances...Golden Ice and Eternal Torpor. The first is a crystalline poison that deals 1d6 Dex damage initially, and 2d6 after one minute. The second is a nondescript substance of some kind that spreads like a disease and deals 1d6 dex damage every day.

They both only effect creatures of an evil alignment.

Have legions upon legions of the weaker Archons mining Golden Ice in the Fourth Heaven (the Crystal Heaven) and a smaller amount with Craft (Afflictions) creating Eternal Torpor in some other Heaven.

Then, the stronger Archons go to the Material plane and start purging the wicked via biological warfare. The stealthy ones sneak in and deposit the Eternal Torpor in wells/reservoirs/etc and watch it spread like wild fire. Then, the main force shows up and rains clouds of Golden Ice down on everyone, causing their nervous system to seize up from all the dex damage.

If there's anyone left alive, a third force comes in later and cleans up (coup de graces) all the people who are already spasming on the ground in near-paralysis. You can tell they're the evil ones because the two substances only effect people of an evil alignment.

The best part is the mental image of a town that's just been ransacked by the Archons. It's probably glittering and glowing from all the celestial crystals dropped on it, mingled with the mourning of the people who had loves ones who were only mildly evil. All the jolly old uncles who died because they engaged in Gluttony, all the strapping young lads who died because they couldn't keep their Lust under control, all the otherwise good mothers who just happened to be Envious of something their neighbors had that they didn't.

So mildly evil...but so equally dead and rotting in the gutters next to the murderers and rapists.

[droyer]

There are two substances...Golden Ice and Eternal Torpor. The first is a crystalline poison that deals 1d6 Dex damage initially, and 2d6 after one minute. The second is a nondescript substance of some kind that spreads like a disease and deals 1d6 dex damage every day.

They both only effect creatures of an evil alignment.

Have legions upon legions of the weaker Archons mining Golden Ice in the Fourth Heaven (the Crystal Heaven) and a smaller amount with Craft (Afflictions) creating Eternal Torpor in some other Heaven.

Then, the stronger Archons go to the Material plane and start purging the wicked via biological warfare. The stealthy ones sneak in and deposit the Eternal Torpor in wells/reservoirs/etc and watch it spread like wild fire. Then, the main force shows up and rains clouds of Golden Ice down on everyone, causing their nervous system to seize up from all the dex damage.

If there's anyone left alive, a third force comes in later and cleans up (coup de graces) all the people who are already spasming on the ground in near-paralysis. You can tell they're the evil ones because the two substances only effect people of an evil alignment.

The best part is the mental image of a town that's just been ransacked by the Archons. It's probably glittering and glowing from all the celestial crystals dropped on it, mingled with the mourning of the people who had loves ones who were only mildly evil. All the jolly old uncles who died because they engaged in Gluttony, all the strapping young lads who died because they couldn't keep their Lust under control, all the otherwise good mothers who just happened to be Envious of something their neighbors had that they didn't.

So mildly evil...but so equally dead and rotting in the gutters next to the murderers and rapists.

You forget that committing a deadly sin isn't necessarily evil. I mean, a child who wants a toy another child has isn't evil although he is envious.

[Jimp]

But NOBODY expects the spanish inquisition!

*Commence hurricane of Python references and jokes*.

Except that everybody knows that nobody expects the Spanish inquisition. That's why the French inquisition catches everyone off guard!

Bonus cookies to anyone who gets the reference

[Xefas]

You forget that committing a deadly sin isn't necessarily evil. I mean, a child who wants a toy another child has isn't evil although he is envious.

Yeah, but if you play it that way, then it's harder to drive home the "All Paragons of Goodness are Actually Evil in Disguise!" thing.

In my games (and I assume how it's intended to go), it's never a question of Archons actually being so overbearing and fanatical that they appear evil, because...they aren't. That's just a poor stereotype brought about by all the people who want to play Miko-paladins. In reality, the greatest tenant of Lawful Good is respect for life- all life. An Archon respects all life no matter the alignment, being a pure physical manifestation of such tenants. That's why they would never ally themselves with the devils.

However, in the original poster's world, the Archons are meant to be overly fanatical and are apparently insane enough to team up with the forces of Hell.

Given that he's already skewed good into being evil, I see no reason why he wouldn't skew neutrality into being evil as well.

[Mewtarthio]

I'm reminded of something from the Civilization IV mod Fall From Heaven. It has a religion called The Order which is psychotic Lawful personified. At it worst, it's compared to a complete and total dictatorship, except they're even worse since they've got magic. If you take an oath in the name of their god in the presence of one of their servants, the servant reports back to a diviner who can tell if you will ever violate that oath. Their High Priests have a spell that magically quashes all dissent and malcontent in a city. The penalty for lying is death; the penalty for harboring demon cultists is to have your entire city burned to the ground and every inhabitant put to the sword. Or maybe they'll be merciful and hold an inquisition to purge any faiths except for their own.

From the in-game manual, a good description of their creed:

Spoiler

Show

The aspiring acolyte is taken to the roof of the basilica or temple, alone with the ranking Confessor. It is a ritual, but one the acolyte has never before observed, and so also a test. Below them lies the city, with its teeming inhabitants. Merchants, soldiers, farmers, laborers, nobles, each on his own task.
"Look out, my son," commands the confessor, "and tell me what you see."
"Order," replies the young acolyte calmly.
The confessor smiles. "How do you see order here? Each man follows his own will."
"Order is brought by the law. As we follow the code of Junil, we are able to cooperate with one another, bringing about the ultimate expression of order, civilization. Each man's works contribute to the greater good without him knowing it, so long as those who harbor ill will are constrained by the law."
"What is the greatest temptation of the faithful of Junil?"
"Mercy."
"Why?"
"The children of mercy are redemption and injustice. To show mercy to the murderer is to show contempt for the slain, and to grant mercy to the thief is to impoverish his victims. The redemption of a foe is the greatest achievement, but by forgiveness without contrition one is only allowing future suffering. The brother who grants mercy to all sees compassion as his strength; in truth pride is his weakness and the seeds of future misery are sown in the community. Thus mercy must remain the discretion of the gods."
"And so what is your greatest calling?"
"Obedience. Unquestioning Obedience." This exchange complete, the acolyte will be bathed and blessed, a full member of the Order.

From chapter 2 of Reflections on the State Cults, by Elder Methyl of the Luonnatar

And a description of their military tactics:

Spoiler

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When the messenger brought word that the Lanun refused our demand to surrender, the High Inquisitor sighed sadly, then ordered our army back from the walls. The commanders protested this apparent retreat, but the High Inquistor replied, "Wait, and see." He climbed a hill which overlooked the pirate raiders' seaport, and began to pray.
It started slowly, thin streamers of smoke rising from the rooftops, but quickly hungry tongues of flame were licking the sky, rising higher and higher. Within a minute, the entire town was on fire, and still the flames rose, spinning with increasing speed about a central axis. The great pillar of fire stretched to the zenith, spinning like some hellish cyclone of flame--even a quarter-mile from the walls, we could feel the wind created as it sucked up the surrounding air into itself.
The most horrible part came after the pillar collapsed and dissolved. That's when it started to snow--except it wasn't snow, not at midsummer. It the ashes of the town and its inhabitants, drawn up by the pillar of fire, and scattered for a half-mile round about what once had been a thriving seaport, and was now a great crematorium.
That was when I started to have doubts about serving the Order.

--From A Diary of the Lanun Campaigns by Kell Magoran

[Corsec1337]

But NOBODY expects the spanish inquisition!

*Commence hurricane of Python references and jokes*.

So glad this came after my post. I really wanted to fit it in myself but couldn't.

I truly beleive that the perfect thing you want to look at is the Spanish Inquistion. They didn't kill everyone they caught. It's actully a relatively small number. They still did horrible things so I just see it as the perfect example of a LG organization thats evil.

[ashmanonar]

But NOBODY expects the spanish inquisition!

*Commence hurricane of Python references and jokes*.

It's only a model.

[Tokiko Mima]

I'm reminded of something from the Civilization IV mod Fall From Heaven. It has a religion called The Order which is psychotic Lawful personified. At it worst, it's compared to a complete and total dictatorship, except they're even worse since they've got magic. If you take an oath in the name of their god in the presence of one of their servants, the servant reports back to a diviner who can tell if you will ever violate that oath. Their High Priests have a spell that magically quashes all dissent and malcontent in a city. The penalty for lying is death; the penalty for harboring demon cultists is to have your entire city burned to the ground and every inhabitant put to the sword. Or maybe they'll be merciful and hold an inquisition to purge any faiths except for their own.

Excellent point here. Take your average archon and subtract mercy, forgiveness, charity, and compassion and the result will inevitably be as evil as the worst fiend of the Lower Planes. I'd also add a healthy dose of racist bigotry e.g. "You scum swilling mortals only get in the way of Heaven."

You realize you're setting up a world full of nothing but despair right? Unless the players make some big changes or there is another covert force in this, they might often feel like just giving up in a world where there is no line at all between Virtue and Vice.

[FlyMolo]

. An Archon respects all life no matter the alignment, being a pure physical manifestation of such tenants. That's why they would never ally themselves with the devils.

Sorry, that's tenets.

But yeah, this sounds really depressing.

[dspeyer]

There's other forms of bad goodness besides (or in addition to) overzealous smiting of the moderately wicked.

For example, there's the taking-care-of-the-child-races approach, epitomized by the Vorlons. The path we're leading you on is the best one (maybe it really is), and you can't see it because you haven't achieved our perspective. Anyone who strays will be gently but inexorably corrected. Anyone who seeks to tempt our children off the path will be destroyed utterly.

This can be subverted into the we're-only-making-you-stronger approach, epitomized by the Watcher's Council. These forces of self-proclaimed good never fight evil themselves. Instead they raise up champions among the mortals, supplying them with exactly the power they need to defeat evil by great personal sacrifice, but never the little extra bit that would allow them to have a life to. These 'good guys' are also notorious for not giving straight answers and leaving their champions to discover traps and betrayals on their own.

These can both be seen as cases of the for-the-greater-good-eventually-somehow approach, best presented in Good Omens. Perhaps the only way for Good to triumph is to hold a great war with Evil, and this war must be held on the prime material plane which will surely be destroyed in the process. Small cost, right?

[Ninjalitude]

Let's not go there. It's a silly place

*Sings Camelot song just loud enough to make people next to him have murderous urges*

[Jayngfet]

Yeah, but if you play it that way, then it's harder to drive home the "All Paragons of Goodness are Actually Evil in Disguise!" thing.

In my games (and I assume how it's intended to go), it's never a question of Archons actually being so overbearing and fanatical that they appear evil, because...they aren't. That's just a poor stereotype brought about by all the people who want to play Miko-paladins. In reality, the greatest tenant of Lawful Good is respect for life- all life. An Archon respects all life no matter the alignment, being a pure physical manifestation of such tenants. That's why they would never ally themselves with the devils.

However, in the original poster's world, the Archons are meant to be overly fanatical and are apparently insane enough to team up with the forces of Hell.

Given that he's already skewed good into being evil, I see no reason why he wouldn't skew neutrality into being evil as well.

hmm... I think I misstated, they were supposed to work against the forces of hell but use similar methods, I had a well typed comment on how there were more good outsiders than evil and how they were trying to stop this, but it was eaten by data vampires, I have a plane to catch early tomorrow, when I get there I'll re-type it.

[Rutee]

You could call the Evil Good guys Grey, for purposes of this conversation, but on hearing that I have few reservations about the idea.

I think you've got something with this then, since it's not Black n' Gray Morality. I think even Gray will stop at killing those who've surrendered and are battered though.

[Jayngfet]

back...


...the situation is complicated, the material plane is about one thousand years old, the plane where most outsiders come from is little over eight hundred-fifty, one year ont the material plane is one round on the other plane, most people in ether plane are unaware of the other, but a natural portal opened up between the third and fourth layers of the other plane(for convenience's sake lets call the material plane plane A and the other plane B)

the demons and archons got to plane a on their way between layers, the devils led by the usual sadist, the archons led by a crazy lawful extremist, just before they spot each other, and get dumped on plane A a few thousand miles apart from each other, and lo and behold, this strannge new world is populated by things weaker than them! So now the archons are trying to "reform the chaotic souls", killing off the evil and trying to patrol towns and make decisions based on military traning, an inborn alignment, and a code designed for dealing with evil armies and weeding out the trecherous, regardless of laws and non archon thoughts (there are non combatant celestials who don't share opinions with the military that could be distracting), devils are going opressive empire, killing anything that objects to them and anything above seventh level, conscripting villagers into an army to take over this world and return home to wipe out celestials with their new army.


the problem is that the afformentioned archon leader is going made with power after a few decades unhindered by superiors or competition besides the occasional would be hero or minor devil on the edge of his territory, now he's going to try to completly overide the government and punish anything worse than purse snatchig with death, anything less with losing an ear or your nose (a fib could get you 40 lashes from a whip), the pit fiend in charge of the devils has gotten a lot of information on the archons and has been training his humans and devils like mad, working the nearby mines and smiths to produce as many weapons and armor as possible, and is resorting to gurella tactics on the edge of territory


however, a cavalry of archons, angels and eldarin have also stumbled into plane A, and are horrified at the situation of having a rouge army and the enemy terrorize the populace, so they too have resorted to gurella tacics, hitting devils and demons alike with extreme force (though they still cringe when fighting archons and humanoids), knowing that a messanger would take a melennia to bring help.

even with all this happening, the wilderness is still dangerous, full of evil wizards, clerics to dark gods, and even simple highwaymen, growing craftier to avoid detection from these enemies


the first group from plane B came about 90 years ago (long enough for half fiends and planetouched), the second group came about a decade before the campane.


so the result is a harsh law stretching from the entire nothern contenent to the end of the northeastern coast, whatever free villages in between setting up huge defensive walls and traning guards and minutemen, placeng laws on who can go so far out of town and where, so everyone is just as bad as everyone else.


and none of these organisations contain the current BBEG, or any major antagonists I can think of.