The Challenge of Chaotic Evil

[Calinero]

I've been itching for a bit to try out a chaotic evil character, but I am faced with a problem...most of the actions that immediately come to mind when I think of 'chaotic evil' involve doing things that would piss off a lot of the other players, and generally end up with me being a jackass. But, unless I am misinterpreting the alignment (which is entirely possible, I am fairly new), one of the defining aspects of chaotic evil is being able to wreak whatever mayhem you want. How do you do this without making an ass of yourself an alienating the party?

[Reel On, Love]

Chaotic Evil doesn't mean crazy. It doesn't mean you're willing to do anything. It doesn't mean you don't care about any consequences.

Read Matthew Stover's Heroes Die and Blade of Tyshalle. Caine, the Protagonist, is... well, most likely Chaotic Evil. He nevertheless manages to be a compelling and even sympathetic protagonist.

[EvilElitest]

Might makes right. I am strong, and thus i am the right to rule

Just one aspect of CE. It is a rather open alignment to many types of ideals
from
EE

[Saph]

It's kind of difficult. Chaotic Evil is the textbook 'does not play well with others' alignment. Many experienced players (me included) will flat-out refuse to play in a party with any Chaotic Evil character in the absence of a very good reason, for exactly the reason you've written down - being in the same party with someone whose character concept revolves around 'doing whatever mayhem he wants' is generally not fun.

If you still want to go through with it, my advice would be:

a) Check that the rest of the group's OK with you playing an Evil character.
b) The other PCs are off-limits. Do not kill, attack, or rob them, or do anything else likely to provoke an in-party fight.
c) Restrict your death-and-destruction episodes to situations where they won't cause too much trouble for the rest of the party.

If you do this, they may still not be all that happy with having a Belkar in the party, but they're more likely to put up with it.

- Saph

[Nebo_]

Chaotic Evil is ok. Just don't be a 'tard and you'll be fine. I've seen some wonderfully played CE characters that didn't go around raping and pillaging, or murdering people because they looked at him wrong.

[Calinero]

Thanks for the advice! True, I cannot think of many who would be happy with a Belkar in the party....one of the reasons I most respect The Giant is for being able to write Belkar well enough that my Willing Suspension of Disbelief isn't broken by the fact that Roy and co. allow him to stay in the party.

[Breaw]

Chaotic evil doesn't mean stupid. Chaotic, evil and stupid would be hard to play though.

The nice thing about CE alignment is that you aren't forced to do anything. Good deeds don't disgust you. A LG player really should step in if they see someone being mugged, but there's no reason for you to charge in and break up someone giving food and blankets to the homeless. You'll definitely feel a strong desire to oppose anyone trying to 'control' you, but there's no need to be overt about it.

In fact, your character might have a lot of fun (and you along with him) seeing what you can get away with without your party knowing. You'll need a pretty good group of players to ignore the things that their characters don't know, but they themselves do... but that's another matter all together.

If I can quote Belkar (when describing why he is going willingly with Miko) : "If I can kill it here, I can kill it anywhere."

I wouldn't try it with a pally in the party, but it general it can be a lot of fun to RP. If you do it right you'll have the party defending you if/when the peasants and town guard figure out what you've been up to, at least the first time!

[Solo]

Jayne from Firefly is arguably Chaotic Evil, but manages to get along with the others.

Most of the time.

[Zincorium]

Basically, the problems stem from the level of devotion to the alignment and the attention paid to how your actions will affect you.

Realistically, a chaotic evil person is not going to do anything they think will either get them killed, cause a loss of freedom, or impoverish them unless the reward is great enough to justify the risk. A mercenary who collects pay all campaign, while hanging back in the smaller fights, and then deserts the night before the final battle shows this kind of behavior.

A complication occurs when the chaotic evil person has friends in the party. As friends, they're important (if distinctly secondary to the CE person) and generally have some kind of benefits stemming from association. They watch your back while you sleep, they share treasure they find lying around, etc. You'll take small risks to protect your investment and keep them around and happy. But if things get complicated, and you are expected to make sacrifices? Well, you're just not that kind of friend.

People who aren't your friends...

Well, they just don't matter beyond what they can do for you, or what you can use them to obtain. Killing them without reason makes you a psychotic, letting them die because they're not worth the effort to help is chaotic evil. They're not people, not like you and your buddies are people.

It doesn't mean you don't have a touch of class, you might still tip well so your drinks aren't watered down, you might let someone who insults you go with just a glare rather than the beating they deserve, but it's a facade. You'd cut all their throats for the gold in their pockets if you knew there wouldn't be any consequences.

[Calinero]

Yeah, I can see Jayne as Chaotic Evil....Mal is Chaotic Good. Whatever Jayne is, he's definitely chaotic. Depending on how much you like him, you could argue for either Evil or Neutral for him. It's a shame the show was cancelled before he could be developed more....

I think I'm seeing a common denominator here. I was under a misconception about the class...for some reason, I was thinking of Chaotic Evil as 'go around, being cliched evil and doing mean things for any reason whatsoever!' I forgot to factor in things like self-preservation, and sanity.

[Chronos]

Jayne from Firefly is arguably Chaotic Evil, but manages to get along with the others.

Most of the time.

Eh, I'd be more inclined to call him Chaotic Neutral. He knows he's not good, but he's sort of disappointed in himself for not being good. See the end of the episode "Jaynestown", for example.

[Solo]

Eh, I'd be more inclined to call him Chaotic Neutral. He knows he's not good, but he's sort of disappointed in himself for not being good. See the end of the episode "Jaynestown", for example.

He turns in River and her brother into the feds knowing they experimented on her, turned her schizophrenic, and mutilated her brain, and probably would continue to do so,.

Chaotic Neutral behavior?

[The Extinguisher]

Don't be stupid evil. You should be fine.

Try being passive agressive chaotic evil. That might be fun.

[Dode]

You are free, free of all morality or judgment.
Never be bound to a higher authority.
Never be bound to your word.
Never be bound by mercy or friendship.
Never be bound by the rights of others.
Fulfill your destiny no matter what it costs to anyone else.

[The_Snark]

One of the more successful Chaotic Evil characters I've played was a character seeking immortality. Not in the sense of agelessness—they'd already found that; immortality in the sense of being completely free from the fear of death. The character was more than a little unbalanced, and slightly paranoid; not in the sense of suspecting everyone was plotting against her, but in the sense of knowing (through experience and by way of having seen way too much death in her early days) that eventually, no matter what you did, something was going to get you. To try to avoid that, the character had been essentially shedding various limitations and weaknesses; the need to sleep, a defined shape, aging... the character was basically trying to get rid of everything that limits people.

I hadn't actually set out to make a Chaotic Evil character, but when considering alignment, I decided she was unpredictable and really didn't care about any sort of code, set of rules, or laws, which tends to mean Chaotic to me; similarly, the character wasn't very concerned with the wellbeing of other people. If they weren't doing anything, watch them; if they might be planning something, it was time to start employing mind control, kill someone, or just leave. The character was not incapable of having friends (and in fact was often rather lonely, owing to being an eccentric wandering shapeshifter). It worked well in a party, and it came across very well; she was the party's wild card, with nobody ever quite sure how she'd react to a given situation.

So it's definitely possible. Just make sure that your CE character will have a reason for staying with the group and not backstabbing them, and that they have a reason for tolerating the character, and it can be very interesting.

[AslanCross]

IMO, a CE PC without being Chaotic Stupid or psychotic would be very similar to an NE PC, except with the minor difference of deriving pleasure from tormenting your so-called friends once in a while.

You keep others around only because they're useful to you. You like tormenting them (ala Belkar) and only help them when it suits your needs. Sometimes you will go out of your way to offend them, but it still is possible to gain your (grudging) respect if the said person shows an admirable quality (shrewdness or strength, depending on your character).

Bishop (CE ranger NPC) in Neverwinter Nights 2 was like that. I hated his guts, but he wasn't a psychotic murderer and had his own struggles despite being a repulsive, chauvinistic, selfish jerk.

[TheCountAlucard]

I think I'm seeing a common denominator here. I was under a misconception about the class...for some reason, I was thinking of Chaotic Evil as 'go around, being cliched evil and doing mean things for any reason whatsoever!' I forgot to factor in things like self-preservation, and sanity.

Heh, glad to see you've seen the light. Even demons, the shining paragon of chaos and evil, are usually fairly smart about how they go about doing things. If they go on a killing spree, they're gonna do it in a way that doesn't get them killed.

You've got to keep in mind, there are a hundred or more ways to play the same alignment. In my evil campaign, two of my players have made Lawful Evil characters, and they behave in very different ways.

[Konig]

I personally define chaotic evil is the ultimate 'selfish' alignment. A CE character still isn't, as many have said, stupid. He's his own first priority, but that doesn't preclude working with others. I'd define the mentality as being something like...

• I'm evil. That means I sin. I might focus on lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, envy, wrath or pride, or I might embrace all of these sins on a daily basis.
• I'm chaotic. That means I prioritize freedom over structure. I change, I adapt, I am more creative than logical, I act by whim rather than long term plans.
• I'm an adventurer because it's more money, fame and power than I could get doing a simpler job. Money, fame and power get me whatever else I want.
• I adventure with others because adventuring is dangerous, and if I'm in a team of 4, that's just 3 more bodies keeping me alive.
• If it doesn't inconvenience me unnecessarily, I help my teammates. If they owe me one, that's a favor I can use later.
• A living ally is more beneficial than a dead one.

[Proven_Paradox]

One thing that I think several people here have said that I disagree with is about chaotic evil and the concept of friendship. Yes, you should be number one, and their needs are secondary to yours, but I see no reason to say that CE characters cannot form bonds of friendship, especially with NE or CN characters who don't mind their occasional destructive acts. After adventuring with the NE rogue for a few months, I think it's perfectly reasonable for the CE barbarian to come to enjoy his company, drink with the man, maybe even come to trust him. He might even put himself at some marginal risk for him (though he wouldn't die for him). Evil doesn't mean friendship is impossible. Just harder. Same for love, actually.

[Konig]

I agree there. Of course, the nature of said friendship & love would differ somewhat.

A BBEG with a daughter might adore his daughter, but might be cruel to her as a reaction; perhaps attempting to instill the same harsh lessons he believed forged him into the man he is today. He might spoil her, exposing her to a sort of hedonistic lifestyle. He might practice a warped kind of parenting depending on what his particular philosophy or mindset is. An unhealthy heart breeds unhealthy relationships.

[Calinero]

I vaguely remember one of The Giant's articles mentioning how he completely threw off some players in a campaign he was the GM of, by introducing two main villains who worked together. The PC's tried to play them against each other, not believing that the two could honestly be friends....but they were. It didn't make logical sense, it didn't benefit either of them...but even evil people can have friends.

As for me, though, I think it would be difficult enough to play a CE person without factoring in friendship as well. Trying to make a CE character in love seems far too difficult, at the moment. I'm going to wait until I have more experience (the real kind, not the XP kind!) before tackling anything like that.

[Kekken]

The online Alignment test is full of questions that can be answered by all sorts of "normal" people.

In fact, just for a test, I decided to try it out with the frame of mind of one of the Fated from Plansecape. In otherwords, "look out for number one, never give or accept charity, and only respect authority so long as it adbvances your own agenda."

I got chaotic evil. Duke Rowan Darkwood, Factol of the Takers, would definatly be Chaotic Evil, and yet he is also one of the most respected (and yes, even admired by many) cutters in Sigil.

So yeah, as long as you're not cliche dancing-in-the-blood-of-infants and summon demons every other day, you should be fine. You're probably best of avoiding an chaotic evil cleric or blackguard, as they are more or less required to be evil for evil's sake, whereas other people can be evil for selfishness sake.

[Zeful]

Chaotic Evil is the embodiment of narcissism. Everything is about you.

I thought up a Chaotic Evil villain. He had a plan to get the McGuffin and that involved a little risk. He spent time and most of his spell power to defend his body while he magic jar'd into children to further his goals. He thought of every one else as a tool for his sole use.

[Occasional Sage]

Chaotic Evil is as hard to roleplay (well) as Lawful Good, and for many of the same reasons. I have a great deal of respect for your taking this on; like playing a character with a paladin-esque mindset, it's very difficult to do both convincingly and in a way that's fun for the group.

Good luck, and I hope you post about it!

[Dark Knight Renee]

First off, make sure your party is OK with you playing an evil character. Also, unless you actually plan on being over the top EVIL, make sure you let them know that you aren’t going for over the top, or you’re likely to be rejected out of hand. Don’t even mention that it’s chaotic evil, for the same reason.

An evil character doesn’t have to be out to wreck havoc – he’s out for himself or for his agenda, and lacks morals in achieving his goals. Mr. CE doesn’t, however, have to place himself first. He can easily have someone or something else as his No. 1 priority, and be it a cause, an item, or a person. In an adventuring party, an evil character may be care enough about his friends (party members) to do just about anything for them, even if everyone and everything else is fair game – especially when Good aligned friends aren’t looking, or when those friends are in trouble. If that’s his No. 1 priority, even an evil character can perform actions that appear, on the surface, altruistic. I think that many people forget this.

[Vuzzmop]

He turns in River and her brother into the feds knowing they experimented on her, turned her schizophrenic, and mutilated her brain, and probably would continue to do so,.

Chaotic Neutral behavior?

I believe you may be forgetting that this is one instance, in a universe in which the people within do not have to justify actions and reactions by strict moral and ethical axises. Funny thing is, I don't think Joss Whedon sat down at the script-writing table and thought "hmmm, i wonder what D&D alignment my characters will be today?"

[Dark Knight Renee]

I'm pretty sure that Jayne does, in fact, fall within the bounds of the Evil alignment. I'm also pretty sure that Mal does a much better job of keeping him in line than the OotS does with Belkar, which severely limits how much of it he actually gets to do and how much of it we see.

[Chronos]

He turns in River and her brother into the feds knowing they experimented on her, turned her schizophrenic, and mutilated her brain, and probably would continue to do so,.

Chaotic Neutral behavior?

I'm half-ninjaed (monked?) by Vuzzmop, in noting that that was a single incident, but also note that at the time, he didn't know the whole situation with River. He knew she was crazy, but he didn't know why. Even Simon only found out that they mutilated her brain at the same time that Jayne was turning them in.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

One thing to notice is that regardless of Jayne's alignment, he and Belkar have one thing in common:

They'd both get into a lot more trouble if they didn't have someone keeping them in check.

Remember, if Might makes Right to a Chaotic Evil person, then someone stronger then them should hold power over them:

So you can play your Chaotic Evil who has his most dastardly actions held of by a strong authority figure. Not that you might not try to betray them if it looks good enough, but you'll do what they want most of the time. (And maybe the Power of Plot will conveniently make your Chaotic side supersede you evil side at just the right moments to keep you working with your party instead of against them, *cough*Belkar*cough*)

[Jayngfet]

adventurer as a profession seems chaotic evil to begin with, there's a whole guild out there, most people just walk into the nearest orc town and burn it to the ground (according to cityscape orc and goblinoid cities are built around this being an eventuality), we can't all save the world from the demonic army hellbent on destruction, some of us belkar for a living.


if they get uppity just inform them of this.