Best Melee Fighter and/or Rogue with Core+PHB2+completes?

[Da King]

I need a effective Rogue and/or fighter character for my game. I don't trust the player after the BoED Samurai irritation and need a good character that will be appealing for him to play.Here is a complete list of the books available to our group:

Core
PHB2
Psionics Handbook
Complete Divine, Arcane, Scoundrel, Adventurer, Warrior, Psionics
Magic Item Compendium
Spell Compendium
MM4

The character must be Level 3 and use 32 point buy.

[Hal]

Depends on what you want him to do and how long you want him to be effective.

At level 3, a Duskblade can be an effective melee fighter, as channeling Shocking Grasp will net you 3d6 damage on top of whatever your weapon can dish out.

On the other hand, if you're just looking for something beefy, there's always a mounted warrior with Spirited Charge and a lance. One trick pony, maybe, but he'll be good for a while.

Not familiar with psionics, so I can't tell you what kind of build to make with that.

[Ascension]

Well, it depends on what sort of melee fighter/rogue you prefer. I, for example, would probably go with something like a rogue/swashbuckler build with an eye to eventually picking up daring outlaw, while someone else would go with a spiked chain tripper fighter, while yet another would build some sort of scout-dervish combo (not at level three, obviously, but later in the build).

Despite what many say, fighters have more options than power attack and rogues have more options than sneak attack multiple ways to optimize their sneak attack. Give us some idea of what the guy wants (other than his original plan for dual-wielding bastard swords. That really wasn't a good idea).

[Artanis]

I need a effective Rogue and/or fighter character for my game. I don't trust the player after the BoED Samurai irritation and need a good character that will be appealing for him to play.Here is a complete list of the books available to our group:

Core
PHB2
Psionics Handbook
Complete Divine, Arcane, Scoundrel, Adventurer, Warrior, Psionics
Magic Item Compendium
Spell Compendium
MM4

The character must be Level 3 and use 32 point buy.

How effective is "effective"? Because Cleric and Druid are a hell of a lot higher on the list than something like a Monk.

[Da King]

Okay, this needs some clarification. As at least one person already knows this player is obsessed with dual-wielding,(seriously, he never uses ANY other tactic) bastard swords, and "smiting evil with my holy radiance" Here's the earlier thread for a bit more information on my players and group.

Alright, how about a melee focused rogue, using a rapier as a primary weapon, and with a good charisma score for bluff/diplomacy? Is there some sort of fighter variant with lighter armor and more skill points he could play?

The way this character has to be effective is:
1)Able to do large amounts of damage in melee combat, but probably won't be able to hold their own for long periods of time
2) An effective manipulator and party "face"
3) Able to take on the role of skill monkey

Really, I'd like to leave most of this up to you. What do you think?

[Chronos]

Despite what many say, fighters have more options than power attack and rogues have more options than sneak attack multiple ways to optimize their sneak attack.

Optimal play for a rogue means you never make a sneak attack. Not that you make any other attack, either. More to the point, nobody else ever makes an attack against you, either. They might, however, eventually notice that all of their stuff is gone.

[Keld Denar]

I'd suggest an human rogue2/swashbuckler1. Get the feats Able Learner(H), Weapon Finesse(B), Craven(1st), and TWF (3rd). At 6th, take the feat Daring Outlaw from Complete Scoundral after 1 more level of rogue and 2 more of swashbuckler. After that, take 1 more level of rogue and the rest of your levels in swashbuckler. That'll net you good BAB, good skills (with Able Learner to keep all your rogue skills as class skills), and great sneak attack (full as a rogue, plus HD from Craven, +int from swashbuckler).

You'll be doing massive damage for your level from about level 6-7 compared to everyone around you. Even below then, you'll still get some good numbers.

Good Gaming!

[Artanis]

Okay, this needs some clarification. As at least one person already knows this player is obsessed with dual-wielding,(seriously, he never uses ANY other tactic) bastard swords, and "smiting evil with my holy radiance" Here's the earlier thread for a bit more information on my players and group.

Alright, how about a melee focused rogue, using a rapier as a primary weapon, and with a good charisma score for bluff/diplomacy? Is there some sort of fighter variant with lighter armor and more skill points he could play?

The way this character has to be effective is:
1)Able to do large amounts of damage in melee combat, but probably won't be able to hold their own for long periods of time
2) An effective manipulator and party "face"
3) Able to take on the role of skill monkey

Really, I'd like to leave most of this up to you. What do you think?

Oh, THAT Samurai


Lessee...Rogue would be an obvious choice for a dual-wielder. However, if he insists on dual-wielding Bastard Swords, a Rogue probably wouldn't work very well (if at all). In that case, a Psychic Warrior would probably be a better choice. There's probably more, but those are the first two that spring to mind.

[Person_Man]

Is this a one shot campaign, or will it go on for a while? Some feats and class combos are great at low levels, but suck at higher levels.

Anywho, consider Halfling Knight. Put yourself on medium sized mount, and stay on it everywhere you go. Your first level feat can be Power Attack. You get Mounted Combat for free at 2nd level. Take Ride-By Attack as your 3rd level feat, and pick up Spirited Charge as your 5th level bonus feat. At 6th level pick up Leadership and use it to get a real mount. Pick up an Animated Shield, and use your lance two handed.

This will give you high AC, high mobility, high damage, and a few nifty special abilities. Test of Mettle at level 4 is particularly uber against many enemies when combined with Ride by Attack.

[Draz74]

Duskblade seems like a good fit for the type of player who wants a dual-wielding, smiting type warrior. It's flashy and doesn't require too much strategy to play well. I'm sure there are some non-cheesy Duskblades out there, but to me, that seems to be the natural leaning of the class. (Meaning "cheesy" in a fluff sense, not in an overpowered sense. The player seems to be the type who would have a flashy, shallow character appeal to him.)

Rogue/Swashbuckler also seems like it would appeal to his bluster, even without any magic. It can incorporate TWF more easily than a Duskblade, and will still be a good, cocky build if the player likes to show off. At level 3, I'd say it should be a pure Rogue. But it should only get as high as Rogue 4 or so before it switches to Swashbuckler -- make sure to dangle the Insightful Strike ability in front of your player as a tempting target. And of course make sure he knows about Daring Outlaw, waiting for him at Level 6.

Personally, with this selection of books, I'd go for Psychic Warrior or Knight. But it seems like the player would get bored with a defensive type like the Knight, and might find ways to abuse the Psychic Warrior ("whoops, forgot how many PP I used up that battle. I'll assume I only used 3.").

[SadisticFishing]

Hey, Person_Man, I like that halfling build, but when you say "real mount" what do you mean?

[Ascension]

Rogue/Swashbuckler also seems like it would appeal to his bluster, even without any magic.

I would protest since I'm currently working on one, but even I have to admit I'm doing it for the sheer "coolness" of it all. Pumped CHA to 14 and dumped WIS, too, even though it hurts me in the long run. Just did it for the flair.

The great thing about classes with precision damage is the fistful of d6s (or, in rare cases, d8s) you get to throw when things go well for you. Other sources of damage are more reliable, less situational, etc., but there's a special feeling of awesomeness in throwing a ton of dice.

For maximum numbers of dice (and max skill points), you'd want to go scout/rogue with swift ambusher and improved skirmish, but due to the nature of skirmish a scout is generally (not always, but generally) better at range, which isn't for this guy, since he wants to hit things with swords.

[AslanCross]

Hey, Person_Man, I like that halfling build, but when you say "real mount" what do you mean?

I think he means an intelligent mount as a cohort, and not just a generic riding dog.

OP: I'd go with the bandwagon and also suggest Duskblade. He can smite with spells. Also, the Arcane Strike feat is very good for smiting.

[PollyOliver]

For maximum numbers of dice (and max skill points), you'd want to go scout/rogue with swift ambusher and improved skirmish, but due to the nature of skirmish a scout is generally (not always, but generally) better at range, which isn't for this guy, since he wants to hit things with swords.

You throw significantly fewer dice, but you might also consider swift hunter. If you stay mostly in ranger you get close to full BAB, some spells, and an animal companion. Plus you can get TWF for free. Going with the archery tree for manyshot would make triggering skirmish so much easier, but TWF is flashy and fun. An anklet of translocation at low levels and a belt of battle or tumble check at high (I don't remember the DC, though) will help him move the requisite ten feet and still get off a full attack. Plus, you can use skirmish on your favored enemies, even if they're immune to precision damage.

But, yeah, duskblade does sound like it would be good.

[SadisticFishing]

I think he means an intelligent mount as a cohort, and not just a generic riding dog.

Yeah, figured that, but like... of what sort? Medium intelligent mounts are odd to come by. Any examples?

[Illiterate Scribe]

Yeah, figured that, but like... of what sort? Medium intelligent mounts are odd to come by. Any examples?

A dwarf?fillah

[Chronos]

I think he means an intelligent mount as a cohort, and not just a generic riding dog.

Or more to the point, I think, something that won't die whenever something level-appropriate looks at it cross-eyed. A non-class-feature horse or riding dog still only has one or two HD, and even if you make your save against that AoE spell, it won't. Paladins and druids have pets that advance as they do, and rangers to a degree (plus, of course, a bunch of other classes and PrCs), but for everything else, to get a mount that survives, you need to get some exotic creature, and to get those, you usually need to take it as a cohort.

[Frosty]

Forget Tumble. Dip a level into Cleric, take Travel Devotion, and you're set for life on Skirmish damage. Or, dip a level into barbarian and get Pounce. Take the whirling frenzy variant so you get an extra attack.

[Eldariel]

Thug Fighter exists for 4+Int skillpoints, but he unfortunately loses 1st level bonus feat and thus isn't very good. Eh, just houserule Fighter up to 4+Int points per level; that's not going to break anything wide open.

If he wants to dual wield, have you suggested Dervish to him? I've played one and the whole Sword Dancer-stuff is pretty fun for a while and you can actually do something with your turns as you've got Elaborate Parry, Combat Expertise and potentially Power Attack too to actually do something else than just full attacking the opponent. Dualwielding Bastard Swords is an almost considerable option for Power Attack :P (provided that you use Exoticist Fighter Variant which gets those Exotic Weapon Proficiencies for free; else there's still no way to make it work) - almost. I mean, if he's really hellbent on dualwielding Bastard Swords, he'll never have a better character than a Power Attacking Dervish based of Exoticist Fighter and either Swashbuckler (for Int to damage) or Scout (for Skirmish-damage) or hell, Rogue (for Sneak Attacks, provided that he has some other mook up there to flank for him).

[Hal]

The way this character has to be effective is:
1)Able to do large amounts of damage in melee combat, but probably won't be able to hold their own for long periods of time
2) An effective manipulator and party "face"
3) Able to take on the role of skill monkey

Really, I'd like to leave most of this up to you. What do you think?

Well, I maintain my vote for Duskblade, but it's not a perfect fit for what your player wants. Duskblades definitely fit the first category. Manipulator? Well, their SLA spells certainly give them options other classes don't have, but Charisma tends to be a dump stat for them, and I don't think Diplomacy or Bluff are class skills, so they're never going to be an effective Diplomancer. The third category is so so, as their high Intelligence is going to lead to a lot of skill points to throw around. What's nice is that all Knowledge skills are class skills for the Duskblade, so they can be a very effective "scholar" sort of character.

FWIW.

[Da King]

I like the halfing knight idea, as well as the duskblade and swashbuckler/rogue.
Also, the character doesn't have to be a good manipulator, but I'd like it because it would encourage the player to role-play more. (or at least lie more)

[The Gilded Duke]

A pretty effective warrior is a Ronin/Warchanter with leap attack and shock trooper.

Ronin gives you Bonzai charge which lets you lower you sacrifice up to your BAB in AC to add to your damage. Warchanter gives you inspire recklessness which lets you sacrifice up to your BAB in AC to add to attack. Then use leap attack and shock trooper to sacrifice your AC up to your BAB to get 3x damage.

You have to pick up exwp Bastard Sword to get into Ronin so he still has an excuse to use his favorite weapon. Also, Warchanter in general has neat abilities, including a better version of Kia shout or whatever that Samurai has.

[SamTheCleric]

Hmm, Some kind of rogue/dervish with Telling Blow and Improved Critical while dual wielding scimitars would be kinda nice. Lots of crits... lots of sneak attack damage to those crits.

[Indon]

As at least one person already knows this player is obsessed with dual-wielding,(seriously, he never uses ANY other tactic) bastard swords, and "smiting evil with my holy radiance"

He'll love wielding a pair of these. Yes, it's expensive, but to be honest, it's not really worth what it's listed as by RAW. Mechanically, it's a +2 Short Sword with a +1d6 weapon enhancement and a souped-up Bane enchantment - I'd price it between a +4 and a +5 weapon.

From there, I'd say a Rogue would be a fine class.

[Da King]

What exactly is shock trooper? I've seen it mentiioned so many times and I don't know what book it is in. Probably CW, which I don't own but
Samurai Mcdualwield does.

[Zincorium]

What exactly is shock trooper? I've seen it mentiioned so many times and I don't know what book it is in. Probably CW, which I don't own but
Samurai Mcdualwield does.

Shock trooper is a tactical feat, and as such is located a bit after the regular feats in complete warrior, don't hesitate to ask a player to see the book before you allow a feat. Tactical feats have a lot of prerequisites but have several different uses for a single feat slot. Overall, they're a good idea.

The first two uses of shock trooper focus on bull rushing, which without the book Dungeonscape and it's fighter replacement levels aren't generally worth it.

However, the third use changes the penalty to power attacking from to-hit to armor class under very specific circumstances. It's powerful, yes, any combatant which makes use of power attack would be amiss without it, but it's still got some pretty severe limitations and drawbacks.

[Draz74]

What exactly is shock trooper? I've seen it mentiioned so many times and I don't know what book it is in. Probably CW, which I don't own but
Samurai Mcdualwield does.

Shock Trooper for your viewing pleasure.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Rogue -1 or 2, Variant Psychic Rogue (Wizard's web article) or Psychic Warrior -2.

Ranger or Rogue -1 or 2, Variant Seer -2 or 1 (Action Points in a non action point game possibly going Slayer) .

[Paul H]

Hi

The Halfling mounted combat idea isn't a bad one. Just take Druid, with Mtd Combat & Ride-By Attack.

Your Wolf Animal Companion gets extra 2HD (total 4HD), +1Str/Dex, extra feat, etc. Can buff, cast shillelagh & charge!

Of course, the best trapsmith/locksmith is a spellcaster - the not so humble Beguiler. This is one class where small is best. Especially Gnomes.

EG;

Gnome Beguiler

Str 12 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 8

AC 18 (Mithril Chain Shirt), Dex & Size

54 Skill Points (racial/size bonuses include +4 Hide, +2 Listen)

Feats:
1) Spell Focus Illusion
3) Dazzling Illusion (CM pg 41)

Spells/Day - Spont Caster 6/6 (Inc Int bonus) DC for Illusions 15+lvl (Gnome+Int+SF) Cloaked Casting can increase this to 16+lvl.

Dazzling Illusion allows you to dazzle all (non-blind) enemies within 30' when casting any illusion spell. (You're effectively an Illusion/Enchantment specialist)

Loads skills/skill points/spells. Spont (full) caster. Armoured Mage. D6 HP/lvl. Even Trapfinding!

Enjoy
Paul H

[CASTLEMIKE]

Nice PC. Thought this was a super feat if all enemies were dazed for 1 round but not sure if it is worth taking 2 feats for the -1 to hit for 1 round unless Spell Focus Illusion is required for a PRC.

Dazzled
The creature is unable to see well because of overstimulation of the eyes. A dazzled creature takes a -1 penalty on attack rolls, Search checks, and Spot checks.