Alchemists?

[RagnaroksChosen]

So i was pondering last night what an Effective Alchemist Build might look like or weather it would be viable. I would assume at lower levels it might be however I wasn't sure about higher levels. With the amount of random books out there I wonder if there would be enough alchemical devises to be decent in combat.

If this was already explored in another thread could some one direct me to that one...

Thanks,
RagnaroksChosen

[ZekeArgo]

So i was pondering last night what an Effective Alchemist Build might look like or weather it would be viable. I would assume at lower levels it might be however I wasn't sure about higher levels. With the amount of random books out there I wonder if there would be enough alchemical devises to be decent in combat.

If this was already explored in another thread could some one direct me to that one...

Thanks,
RagnaroksChosen

Honestly? Just play a wizard/cleric and flavor him as using potions and ungent mixtures rather than "casting spells."

Otherwise you'll be spending gold and XP just to be able to, well... get gold and xp.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Honestly? Just play a wizard/cleric and flavor him as using potions and ungent mixtures rather than "casting spells."

Otherwise you'll be spending gold and XP just to be able to, well... get gold and xp.

since when does craft alchemical items use exp? I meen mabye i missed it in the PHB...


Well since people make basketweavers wasn't shure if there was a way to optimise an alchemist...

[Kyeudo]

If you want to be a viable combat alchemist, you need to have access to Magic of Eberron. The Alchemical Savant PrC allows you to be a potion chucking firebomber with a little preperation and is fairly easy to enter.

I think there is an alchemical tactical feat in PHB2 called Mad Alchemist that you might want to look into, and I think there is a feat in Races of Eberron that allows you to get two direct hits with one alchemical item.

Hope this helps.

[Aquillion]

Artificer would be a good start. You'd get a crafting reserve, the ability take things apart for materials to brew more potions, and the ability to brew a potion of anything.

[RagnaroksChosen]

ooo i wil have to look into thouse..
Iknow there are some setting specific stuf fin Iron kingdoms (d20) that has some alchemist stuff i just wanted to see if i could find a decen build to play in a game as a player with most resonable gms.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Artificer would be a good start. You'd get a crafting reserve, the ability take things apart for materials to brew more potions, and the ability to brew a potion of anything.

Totaly forgot about the artificer... ill av to go see if i can "Aquire" the ebberon main book.

[DementedFellow]

since when does craft alchemical items use exp? I meen mabye i missed it in the PHB...


Well since people make basketweavers wasn't shure if there was a way to optimise an alchemist...

It's not in the PHB, it's in the DMG. Basically when you craft anything, even a scroll, you pay for the cost to make it in gold and then 1/25th of that cost is in XP.

The Artificer can make a great alchemist for the purposes of what you may have in mind, however, brewing a potion typically is stuck to whatever spells are available at 0, 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spells. Unless someone can direct me to a feat that increases the spell levels you can brew (and I'll love you if you do), then you can't make a potion of anything; you'll just be stuck making a potion of quite a bit regardless.

[Kyeudo]

It's not in the PHB, it's in the DMG. Basically when you craft anything, even a scroll, you pay for the cost to make it in gold and then 1/25th of that cost is in XP.

That only applies to magic items, not to mundane alchemical items. Get your facts straight.

[shadow_archmagi]

So erm... if you drink the Potion of Solid Fog... what happens?

What about Fabricate? Scorching ray? SUMMON MONSTER!? Grease!? Black Tentacles of Forced Intrusion? Fireball?

[DementedFellow]

That only applies to magic items, not to mundane alchemical items. Get your facts straight.

Oh my. I misread the whole thing entirely. When I think of alchemy, I think of the magical potion-making portion only.

My bad.

[Collin152]

Oh my. I misread the whole thing entirely. When I think of alchemy, I think of the magical potion-making portion only.

My bad.

Odd. When I think of alchemy, I think strange glyphs, circles, and turning lead into gold.
Not this crazy caveman-chemistry nonsense.

[Tsotha-lanti]

An alchemist would just be a spellcaster with a focus on Brew Potion; the actual alchemy is pretty useless.

There's an alchemist PrC in Magic of Faerûn, I think. You end up being able to brew 9th-level spells into potions.

DementedFellow: Actually, potions have nothing to do with alchemy; Brew Potion is an item crafting feat. Craft (Alchemy) is only involved in making things like tanglefoot bags (all pretty worthless).

[dman11235]

Or you could use this class, made specifically for this reason, since all other attempts at alchemists have failed, at least with WotC stuff (artificer comes close, but no, not quite, it's not potions you're looking for exactly, but they are a bonus). It's even got a PrC linked somewhere there (the Mad Bomber, if anything it's in his sig). Overall it's really well done.

[shadow_archmagi]

So erm... if you drink the Potion of Solid Fog... what happens?

What about Fabricate? Scorching ray? SUMMON MONSTER!? Grease!? Black Tentacles of Forced Intrusion? Fireball?

I demand an answer.

[Collin152]

I demand an answer.

You die, else I kill you.

[holywhippet]

So erm... if you drink the Potion of Solid Fog... what happens?

What about Fabricate? Scorching ray? SUMMON MONSTER!? Grease!? Black Tentacles of Forced Intrusion? Fireball?

From the SRD:

You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures. Brewing a potion takes one day. When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level. The base price of a potion is its spell level × its caster level × 50 gp. To brew a potion, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one half this base price.

When you create a potion, you make any choices that you would normally make when casting the spell. Whoever drinks the potion is the target of the spell.

Any potion that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when creating the potion.

Fabricate - doesn't target creatures
Scorching ray - should work I suppose, would be a trapped potion basically
SUMMON MONSTER - nope, doesn't target anyone
Grease - doesn't target anyone either
Black Tentacles of Forced Intrusion - assuming it's a variant of the regular black tentacles spell, it won't work because it's a fourth level spell
Fireball - nope, it targets an area rather than individuals

[expirement10K14]

Arms and Equipment guide has the gnome calculus. It can launch potions and flasks at enemies like a crossbow.

[mabriss lethe]

I've been toying with a way to revamp the alchemy system, because, well... It's pretty useles. Haven't gotten very far, too much stuff on my plate as it stands. My biggest beef is that the only people who can learn alchemy are the ones who don't need it. sure, spellcasters fit the archetype, but I'd love to play a saboteur style rogue who brews up his own toys.

Of course, I think a lot of my distaste for alchemy in 3.5 comes from reading the malazan books of the fallen. Moranth munitions anyone? What I wouldn't give to see some stats on a moranth cusser.

Epic alchemy is even more of a waste as far as I can tell.

[Aquillion]

One thing you could consider doing is asking your DM to let you make one-shot consumable items using the guidelines in the SRD. While those guidelines are broken for many things, for one-shot consumables they work pretty well (or at least, they can't really be exploited much.)

[dman11235]

The problem with that is that they are WEAK. At level 20, doing 1d6 to a target is like, well, doing almost nothing. If you have SA or SS it's a bit better, but still it's terrible compared to a TWF rogue, or even a normal rogue.

[MammonAzrael]

It's terrible compared to a lv 20 commoner.

[holywhippet]

The problem with that is that they are WEAK. At level 20, doing 1d6 to a target is like, well, doing almost nothing. If you have SA or SS it's a bit better, but still it's terrible compared to a TWF rogue, or even a normal rogue.

Not really. Imagine this scenario - you are facing off against a level 10 wizard who's already cast a few strong buffing spells on himself with a level 4 rogue. Your action? Throw an achemists fire at him. Your attack roll is only 7, but add that your BAB (3) and your DEX bonus (3) and you end up with a total of 13. Not very high, but since it's only going against the wizards touch AC it connects. That's 1d6 damage immediately, but it also calls for a reflex save (DC 15) since the alchemists fire can potentially set the wizard on fire. A level 10 wizard only has a reflex bonus of +3 there's a decent chance he won't make the save and will take another 1d6 damage immediately.

Now it's the wizards turn, he can either take a full round action and attempt a reflex save (again DC 15) to put the flames out, or he can try to cast a spell. If he hasn't put enough ranks into concentration, that spell might simply fizzle. Denying the wizard a round in which to cast a spell is a very useful ability.

[Talic]

Let's assume that wizard has a dex of 14 (+2), and has wisely not shirked his concentration. He will pass reflex more often than not, and will nearly always pass concentration. Further, if a wizard has decent buff spells up, then you're dealing with miss chances (blur, mirror image, etc), resistances (protection from energy, resist energy, etc), or targeting difficulty (invisibility, etc.)

However, back to the topic. Races of the Wild has a Halfling rogue Substitution progression. Extra D6 with thrown weapons and slings. Works with alchemist's fire/acids, etc. Also lets you snipe as a free action, with a -10 instead of -20. In addition, Woodland sniper lets you move before snipe hiding if you successfully sniped last round. So, you normally get: Standard(attack), Free(move), Move(hide). Now you get: Standard(attack), Free(move), Free(hide). You still have a move. This means that if you start pulling off snipes, you get double moves with your attack every round. Add in Darkstalker for hiding goodness, Shadowdancer for HiPS, and Pump out touch attack snipes like there's no tomorrow. After all, at 9th level, you're doing with an Alch Fire, 7d6 fire damage, with a DC 15 Reflex or take another 1d6 next round. Now, the earlier examples may not be that much, but now we're actually getting into OK damage with these things. By 11th, you're still only doing 7d6, but you've got HiPS and a bonus on sniping. From there, take rogue 11 for an extra sneak attack die, then salt in as many PrC's that have level 1: Sneak attack +1d6, and for your level 10 rogue ability, opportunist? Improved Evasion? Make the call. If need be, go to rogue 13 for an extra spec. ability and sneak attack die.

[Aquillion]

If he hasn't put enough ranks into concentration, that spell might simply fizzle.

And if he suddenly decides that he wants to die, he might jump off a nearby cliff* instead of casting spells at you. Neither of these situations are particularly probable.

Look at the wizard's skill list, then consider the fact that their int mod is definitely going to be their highest stat -- what else are they going to spend their skill points on? They only have six class skills, most of which are clearly useless, and there's a good chance they're getting at least six skill points per level. Unless they go crazy with cross-class skills or develop a sudden urge to have multiple knowledge, profession, or craft skills at the expense of everything else, they are basically forced to max concentration.

* This does not in fact kill him. Overland Flight FTW.

[Bag_of_Holding]

I recommend going Artificer 5 to Alchemist Savant from Magic of Eberron. Mixing up Spellvial of Scorching Ray and Alchemist's Fire will net you 5d6 fire damage, or you could just mix up an alchemist's fire and any contact/injury poison and throw them at your opponent/s! Not exactly overpowering, but a spellvial of hold person sounds quite fun to me.

[Telok]

Strangely enough Brew Potion is not the feat that you want for an alchemist style character. Craft Wonderous Item is much better because elixirs and oils can be of any level and work as thrown items. As a side benefit the items cost exactly as much as potions do, some of them just take longer to make.

So while you can't make a potion of Solid Fog, you can make a Flask of Fog that does exactly what you want and otherwise looks and acts exactly like a potion.

[shadow_archmagi]

From the SRD:


Fabricate - doesn't target creatures
Scorching ray - should work I suppose, would be a trapped potion basically
SUMMON MONSTER - nope, doesn't target anyone
Grease - doesn't target anyone either
Black Tentacles of Forced Intrusion - assuming it's a variant of the regular black tentacles spell, it won't work because it's a fourth level spell
Fireball - nope, it targets an area rather than individuals

Wouldn't it just consider the center of the area spell the drinker of the potion? Also, does that mean that one cannot make potions of mage armor?

[Tsotha-lanti]

Wouldn't it just consider the center of the area spell the drinker of the potion? Also, does that mean that one cannot make potions of mage armor?

No, and yes. No area effects because they don't target creatures, and no personal range spells. I'd also forbid spells that require attack rolls, since they make little sense as potions - you've got to wonder why that's not covered already. Although I guess you could make them like the oils in AD&D - thrown weapons. So you throw a potion of scorching ray at an opponent to inflict the damage with an attack roll. Seems fair enough?

[Aquillion]

No, and yes. No area effects because they don't target creatures, and no personal range spells. I'd also forbid spells that require attack rolls, since they make little sense as potions - you've got to wonder why that's not covered already. Although I guess you could make them like the oils in AD&D - thrown weapons. So you throw a potion of scorching ray at an opponent to inflict the damage with an attack roll. Seems fair enough?

The item creation guidelines seem to specifically encourage this by making "One-shot, use-invoked" be the same cost as a potion.

Of course, this negates the limitations of a potion, so some DMs might want to charge a bit more.