Why is Elven Chain 4x more expensive...

[LongVin]

I am in the process of creating a rogue right now and I noticed that Elven Chainmail cost is approx. 4,000 gold but a Mithral Shirt which actually has better stats costs(same AC, no armor penalty, lighter weight and better dex bonus) is only 1,100 gold.

Maybe I am reading the descriptions wrong but what is the benefit if going with Elven Chain?

[Kyeudo]

It's probaby a hold over from a previous edition.

[kpenguin]

Actually, elven chainmail has a better AC bonus than a mithral shirt (+5 to +4). The cost is exactly the same as having mithral chainmail.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Elven Chain is statted as Mithral Chain Mail.

Now then, a Chain Shirt is Light Armor, so Mithral Chain is only +1k

However, Chain *MAIL* is Medium Armor, so it's +4k, which explains the price.

If you look, Elven Chain in the DMG actually has an AC of +5, wheras a Chain Shirt only has an AC of +4 (although the max dex of Mithral Chain Shirt is +6 wheras the Mithral Chainmail is only +4.

[LongVin]

Ah ok. Thanks.

[tyckspoon]

No real benefit unless you're really hard up for a point of AC. The Elven Chain is chainmail, not a chain shirt; that's base AC 5. The extreme difference in costs is from the increase in the cost of mithral for a Medium armor over a Light one. The best use for Elven Chainmail is having a Mithril Chain Shirt made out of it and selling off the rest of the mithril for value by weight. Which probably turns out to be worth more than the actual market cost of the chainmail, because D&D's economy is all kinds of fxbored.

[bugsysservant]

No real benefit unless you're really hard up for a point of AC. The Elven Chain is chainmail, not a chain shirt; that's base AC 5. The extreme difference in costs is from the increase in the cost of mithral for a Medium armor over a Light one. The best use for Elven Chainmail is having a Mithril Chain Shirt made out of it and selling off the rest of the mithril for value by weight. Which probably turns out to be worth more than the actual market cost of the chainmail, because D&D's economy is all kinds of fxbored.

I feel as though... no, just no. You've just hurt me.

[Ashtar]

The reason Elven chain is so expensive it that elven smiths are so very rare.

Honestly who has ever met an elven Armourer / Smith in one of his Rpg sessions?

Bowyer / Fletcher or even Swordsmith yes, Armourer, never...

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Inflation and the drawn out war with orcs.

[Tsotha-lanti]

The reason Elven chain is so expensive it that elven smiths are so very rare.

Honestly who has ever met an elven Armourer / Smith in one of his Rpg sessions?

Come on, the greatest smith in modern fantasy (not the greatest character who is a smith; that'd be Conan) is an elf - Feanör. Elven smiths also forged the rings of power.

[Ashtar]

Yes but all elven smiths are from a long time ago... I mean here's part of the Year of the Trees, for goodness sake. That's long before "playing epoch". I never said elves didn't have smiths, just they are so damn rare.

I bet elven smiths start in their teens, they are rebellious elves which never leave their "heavy metal" period...

[Zincorium]

Unless it's a dramatic necessity for your entire character concept, don't use chainmail. Use either a chain shirt or a breastplate.

Compared to chain mail, breastplates have the same armor value, better max dex, less of an armor check penalty, less ASF, and 10 pounds lighter weight. And it's only 50 GP more. If you can swing 150 but not 200, get a chain shirt.

Real world note: chain mail stopped being used by itself real quick after plate mail became possible to manufacture. Breast plates were used well into the renaissance (conquistadors!) era. It's just plain better.

[Fostire]

It's probaby a hold over from a previous edition.

Couldn't elven mages cast while in elven chain mail in 2nd edition?, or did i just made that up?

[Starbuck_II]

Couldn't elven mages cast while in elven chain mail in 2nd edition?, or did i just made that up?

No, it was the few armors one can wear and cast arcane spells.

[Chronos]

The really funny part is that the fantasy item which inspired Elven Chain Mail, Bilbo's mithril coat, was made by dwarves.

And yes, my spelling there is correct. The silvery miracle metal in Tolkien's stories was mithril; the substance in D&D which closely resembles it is mithral.

[holywhippet]

The really funny part is that the fantasy item which inspired Elven Chain Mail, Bilbo's mithril coat, was made by dwarves.

And yes, my spelling there is correct. The silvery miracle metal in Tolkien's stories was mithril; the substance in D&D which closely resembles it is mithral.

No surprise there, why do you think D&D has halflings instead of hobbits? Answer: because unlike a lot of the other things they "borrowed" when making D&D, the Tolkien estate protect their IP and would have sued them if they didn't change the names/spellings.

[Citizen Joe]

*grumble grumble* ... first edition Dieties and Demigods w/ Elric and Cthulu...

[AslanCross]

*grumble grumble* ... first edition Dieties and Demigods w/ Elric and Cthulu...

Cthulhu actually isn't protected by copyright. I don't know exactly how that happened.

[Reinboom]

All this banter and no mention that Mithral Breastplate is yet better?
Really, why do people bother with Elven Chain? 50 gp difference for... -5% ASP, +1 max dex, -1 armor check penalty overall in comparison is well worth it by the time mithral matters. Oh, and lighter too.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Cthulhu actually isn't protected by copyright. I don't know exactly how that happened.

Because they had Moorcock's copyrighted characters in there. "Smooth move, TSR-Lax."

[Rutee]

Come on, the greatest smith in modern fantasy (not the greatest character who is a smith; that'd be Conan) is an elf - Feanör. Elven smiths also forged the rings of power.

I believe you're confusing this Feanor Elf with the Dwarves who forged Mjollnir...

All this banter and no mention that Mithral Breastplate is yet better?
Really, why do people bother with Elven Chain? 50 gp difference for... -5% ASP, +1 max dex, -1 armor check penalty overall in comparison is well worth it by the time mithral matters. Oh, and lighter too.

Because they're allured by the Elven Chain Male

[Eldariel]

I believe you're confusing this Feanor Elf with the Dwarves who forged Mjollnir...

It appears you're confusing Norse mythology with modern fantasy :o

[fendrin]

The really funny part is that the fantasy item which inspired Elven Chain Mail, Bilbo's mithril coat, was made by dwarves.

Ah, but The Hobbit states it was made for an elf. A young elven prince, actually. Also, mithril is distinctly an elven term. Others refer to it as 'silver-steel', 'true-silver', or 'Moria-silver'. Thus mithril is associated with elves, though the dwarves mine it from Moria.

So really, it makes sense for mithral to be associated with elves, not dwarves.

Also, D&D has devalued mithral in comparison to mithril. In The Fellowship of the Ring, Bilbo's mail is referred to as 'a kingly gift', and being more valuable than the entirety of the shire... which I'm sure is quite a bit more than 1,100gp.

[senrath]

Ah, but The Hobbit states it was made for an elf. A young elven prince, actually. Also, mithril is distinctly an elven term. Others refer to it as 'silver-steel', 'true-silver', or 'Moria-silver'. Thus mithril is associated with elves, though the dwarves mine it from Moria.

So really, it makes sense for mithral to be associated with elves, not dwarves.

Also, D&D has devalued mithral in comparison to mithril. In The Fellowship of the Ring, Bilbo's mail is referred to as 'a kingly gift', and being more valuable than the entirety of the shire... which I'm sure is quite a bit more than 1,100gp.

I dunno. Considering that the average person in the DnD world won't see more than a few gold pieces in their lifetimes...

[ashmanonar]

Ah, but The Hobbit states it was made for an elf. A young elven prince, actually. Also, mithril is distinctly an elven term. Others refer to it as 'silver-steel', 'true-silver', or 'Moria-silver'. Thus mithril is associated with elves, though the dwarves mine it from Moria.

So really, it makes sense for mithral to be associated with elves, not dwarves.

Also, D&D has devalued mithral in comparison to mithril. In The Fellowship of the Ring, Bilbo's mail is referred to as 'a kingly gift', and being more valuable than the entirety of the shire... which I'm sure is quite a bit more than 1,100gp.

Regardless, Bilbo's Mithril shirt was crafted by Dwarves, for that elven prince. (yet never delivered...) I'm fairly certain it was continually referred to as mithril because that's how most people referred to it, in most lands (only the Dwarves called it something else.)

The devaluation of Mithral compared to Mithril is true. It's probably because if they made Mithral as rare as Mithril, one character in any one campaign could have a mithral chain shirt. It just wouldn't work for gameplay.

[kamikasei]

Also, D&D has devalued mithral in comparison to mithril. In The Fellowship of the Ring, Bilbo's mail is referred to as 'a kingly gift', and being more valuable than the entirety of the shire... which I'm sure is quite a bit more than 1,100gp.

By the time of LotR there is no new source of mithril; it could only be found in Moria (making it rare to start with) and it is not mined by the goblins so it's been available only through hoarding and recycling for however long the dwarves have been driven out of Khazad-dum. One assumes that in a typical D&D world it's available from more than one location and is still currently being mined. If you want to make it as rare in your campaign as it is at the start of the Fourth Age, then it shouldn't be available for gold at all, and the listed price should only factor into WBL calculations.

[Signmaker]

It's usually better, monetary-wise, to get a Mith Breastplate, rather than a Mithral Shirt.

While yes, Breastplate costs 3k more for one AC, consider this.

You want an AC of 8 from your armor.

Breastplate requires +9k to achieve this.

Shirt requires +16k.

So while the shirt is initially more economical, the Breastplate is superior in the long run.

[Rutee]

It appears you're confusing Norse mythology with modern fantasy :o

Fantasy is fantasy, dood.

[fendrin]

I dunno. Considering that the average person in the DnD world won't see more than a few gold pieces in their lifetimes...

Npc WBL has lvl 1 NPCs having 900gp worth of gear. Most of that for a commoner would likely be in the form of property, such as the family farm. That means that so long as the shire has at least 2 people in it, it is worth more than Bilbo's shirt. Actually, it is referred to as a 'coat', so one could argue that it would be chainmail, not a chain shirt, so it would be 4150, which means that the shire would have to have only 5 occupants.

I'm fairly certain it was continually referred to as mithril because that's how most people referred to it, in most lands (only the Dwarves called it something else.)

The dwarves called it 'Moria-silver'. Most others called it 'True-silver'. The narration in the hobbit refers to it as 'silver-steel'. Only Elves and those who spend a lot of time with elves (Gandalf, Aragorn, Bilbo, etc.) refer to it as mithril.

The fact of the matter is that the particular item in question is only mentioned on a handful of pages. Two in The Hobbit, 4 or 5 in The Fellowship of the Ring, and two in The Return of the King. The idea of it lives on much more than the actuality. Besides, D&D is 'Tolkien-inspired', not 'Tolkien-complete-copied'.

By the time of LotR there is no new source of mithril; it could only be found in Moria (making it rare to start with) and it is not mined by the goblins so it's been available only through hoarding and recycling for however long the dwarves have been driven out of Khazad-dum. One assumes that in a typical D&D world it's available from more than one location and is still currently being mined. If you want to make it as rare in your campaign as it is at the start of the Fourth Age, then it shouldn't be available for gold at all, and the listed price should only factor into WBL calculations.

Yes, that is true. Surely there must be other veins of Mithril somewhere else in the world, just not in Middle-Earth. I wonder of it is a byproduct of the Balrog? Perhaps it is the reaction of some magical radiation put off my fallen Maiar (or are they Valar? I always get mixed up) on normal silver.

It's usually better, monetary-wise, to get a Mith Breastplate, rather than a Mithral Shirt.

While yes, Breastplate costs 3k more for one AC, consider this.

You want an AC of 8 from your armor.

Breastplate requires +9k to achieve this.

Shirt requires +16k.

So while the shirt is initially more economical, the Breastplate is superior in the long run.

By the time the Breastplate becomes more economical, Greater Magic Vestment is readily available enough to eliminate the need for more than the +1 needed to add special abilities.

[Eldariel]

Fantasy is fantasy, dood.

All fantasy isn't modern fantasy though :P