Is Catfolk worth +1 LA?

[Frosty]

In my party, the vast, vast majority of time, people refuse to play races with a level adjustment, citing the fact that LA generally sucks and it's not worth losing a level over...even with LA buy-off rules. I even told them about cat-folk, and they're still leery about taking a look.

Do you guys think Catfolk is a +1 LA race? What other races (not templates) are worth their LA?

[Emperor Tippy]

Catfolk used to be nice because of pounce. Now you have to weigh Catfolk against the barbarian.

And what level are you starting at?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Catfolk is close, especially if you plan on playing something that can take advantage of all their nifty bennies. Other than them, though, most are either undervalued or hideously broken. LA only really comes into it's own in Gestalt, where the HD and BaB advance normally, even though class features don't. Otherwise, it's just too much lost for too little gained.

[SamTheCleric]

+4 Dex, +2 Charisma, 40' base move, +1 Natural Armor. Yeah, that's worth a +1 LA to me.

Goliath is another one that's worth the +1.

[Saph]

Catfolk is about the only +1 LA race I can think of that I'd be happy to play. They work pretty well as light-fighters and archers (rogues, scouts, rangers, swordsages, etc).

Most other LA races are very difficult to get to work, especially at low levels, where your ability scores are great but your HP is so low that you'll go down with one hit.

- Saph

[Frosty]

Catfolk used to be nice because of pounce. Now you have to weigh Catfolk against the barbarian.

And what level are you starting at?

Level 4. What class would you recommend given bonuses to Cha and Dex?

[Tempest Fennac]

I'd say Favoured Sould of Ehlonna due to how you'd get longbow proficiency, and the Cha boost would be good for spellcasting (the longbow would take advantage of the Dex bonus, and it would allow you to minimise your chances of getting hit).

[Duke of URL]

I think it's a good LA +1 choice, especially for a finesse-based melee character (rogue, swashbuckler, ranger, scout, etc.). Think dervish/tempest for lots of fun, especially with the increased movement speed.

For a warlock, it's almost, but not quite, worth the loss of caster level; with LA buyback, it's a no-brainer.

The general rule against high ECL races is the loss of caster levels -- melee and non-spellcastng support don't have the same issues necessarily. If the race or template provides significant benefits that complement your role, then it's worth it.

[Emperor Tippy]

Level 4. What class would you recommend given bonuses to Cha and Dex?

Bard, Rogue, Sorcerer in core. With buyoff the LA isn't a real problem and Catfolk does have nice bonuses.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Rogue could do well with it, or at that level, even a front-liner like Barbarian or Paladin. really, +1 LA is only a major issue at second level, or with a caster Buyback is another big deal, though in this case, not required.

[Frosty]

Well, ECL 5 is where we start. Level 4 was taking into account Catfolk LA.

The question is: Is being a level behind in spellcasting worth it? When the Wizard reaches level 7, you're still level 5 after buy-off. You cast level 2 spells while he casts level 4. Kind of eww...

[Reel On, Love]

The question is: Is being a level behind in spellcasting worth it? When the Wizard reaches level 7, you're still level 5 after buy-off. You cast level 2 spells while he casts level 4. Kind of eww...

No. It's really, really not.

[SamTheCleric]

Rogue/Swashbuckler with the feat from complete scoundrel that lets them stack. Be a catfolk pirate!

[Reel On, Love]

Rogue/Swashbuckler with the feat from complete scoundrel that lets them stack. Be a catfolk pirate!

"Meow, arr!"

[Duke of URL]

Well, ECL 5 is where we start. Level 4 was taking into account Catfolk LA.

The question is: Is being a level behind in spellcasting worth it? When the Wizard reaches level 7, you're still level 5 after buy-off. You cast level 2 spells while he casts level 4. Kind of eww...

If you're two levels behind after buy-off, you're doing it wrong, I think.

In any case, the XP system is self-correcting -- once you fall behind in ECL, you earn XP faster.

[Charlie Kemek]

yes, warlock would be a pretty good choice, maybe spellthief, or bard.

[Frosty]

If you're two levels behind after buy-off, you're doing it wrong, I think.

In any case, the XP system is self-correcting -- once you fall behind in ECL, you earn XP faster.

Not really. The Sun elf wizard gets to level 6 when you get to level 5 as a catfolk Sorcerer. Then, the wizard reaches level 7. You buy-off your LA and remain level 5.

[Draz74]

The question is: Is being a level behind in spellcasting worth it? When the Wizard reaches level 7, you're still level 5 after buy-off. You cast level 2 spells while he casts level 4. Kind of eww...

Yeah, but that's the low point. After that, since your LA is bought-off and you're lower level, you'll catch up quick.

My answer is, "If you have fun being a Catfolk, and you're not based entirely around spellcasting, then yes, it's worth it."

[nerulean]

Catfolk is pretty tasty as finesse/ranged bard. You're behind spellcasting already, so losing another level won't really hurt you too much since you already have to choose cunning spells in order to make the class's casting worth a damn, and you can make up any BAB you've missed out on no problem, and then some, with bard song.

I played a bard with a +2LA and didn't feel behind the group in any way, even compared to my wizard 6 enchanter friend.

[Person_Man]

If you're a caster, then LA is never worth it.

If you're a non-caster, then I'd say no, Catfolk is still not worth it unless your DM allows LA buyoff.

Catfolk get +4 Dex, +2 Charisma, 40' base move, +1 Natural Armor, low light vision, and +2 on Listen and Move Silently.

So for +6 to stats and +10 Move (the rest is balanced out by what you'd normally get from a +0 LA race) you're trading a full level, including a hit die, Saves, BAB, and class abilities. You're also making it that much harder for you to get special/capstone abilities, which are only available at higher levels.

Also, Catfolk Pounce only works against Flat Footed enemies, and you need to take a feat in order to get it. So its not really worth it for that either.

[turkishproverb]

Yeah, but that's the low point. After that, since your LA is bought-off and you're lower level, you'll catch up quick.

My answer is, "If you have fun being a Catfolk, and you're not based entirely around spellcasting, then yes, it's worth it."

Alternatively have them take a few levels in spelladdict to counter loss of spell levels to ECL.

[elliott20]

but wouldn't being a catfolk make you vulnerable to all discussions of real life physics in a fantasy context? every time somebody mentions the illogical nature of hitpoints, one of your kin dies. wouldn't that be very upsetting?

[Frosty]

but wouldn't being a catfolk make you vulnerable to all discussions of real life physics in a fantasy context? every time somebody mentions the illogical nature of hitpoints, one of your kin dies. wouldn't that be very upsetting?

roffel. Well, we could change the fluff slightly. Instead of a cat-folk, you cna be a bunny-folk witht he same stats! no need to roll fort save or die everytime physics is brought up.

[Aquillion]

Not really. The Sun elf wizard gets to level 6 when you get to level 5 as a catfolk Sorcerer. Then, the wizard reaches level 7. You buy-off your LA and remain level 5.

Technically, you can't do that.

You must pay off your LA at the first opportunity. Even if you're starting at a higher level, you're supposed to build your character as if they went through those levels normally, so you have to go back and pay it at that point in your development.

If you're going to buy it off, a +1 LA must be bought off the moment you hit character level 3. The player has no choice about this, and it cannot be payed at any other point.

Additionally, understand that the XP must be payed the moment you hit the level (it does not drop you a character level, because when you remove the LA your required XP to 'maintain' that level is recalculated.)

For instance, a Catfolk who reaches ECL 4 (3 levels + catfolk LA 1) will have 6000 xp (your level 3 sun elf wizard also has 6000 xp). The catfolk must immediately pay 3000 xp (which is [current ECL - 1] x 1000) if they want to buy off their LA -- if they don't do it the instant they reach character level 3, they never get another chance. Assuming they do, they pay the 3000 xp, and now have 3000 xp total -- they are now at the very beginning of level 3 with 3000 xp to go for level 4.

A character using buyoff for a LA of 1 is never more than one level behind, and the gap will close (slowly) if the DM awards them more XP while their level is lower the way they're supposed to.

This would also have been true if your other mistake had been correct and they'd been able to pay at level 6 -- although I'll remind you again that they cannot, even if they wanted to for some insane reason. I suspect that what confused you was that you assumed they needed to have 'extra' xp to pay. Remember, a character with a LA has the same XP total as everyone else; the purpose of the XP cost is to ensure that they don't instantly gain class levels by trading off their LA (in the example above, if the level 3 Catfolk didn't pay any xp, they'd be turning into a non-LA character with 6000 xp, and would instantly advance to character level 4.)

Not really. The Sun elf wizard gets to level 6 when you get to level 5 as a catfolk Sorcerer. Then, the wizard reaches level 7. You buy-off your LA and remain level 5.

No. Even if you bought off your LA at level 5 as you seem to be assuming here (and, again, you must buy it off at level 3), this still wouldn't work. You hit 5, you instantly pay 5000 xp and remain level 5 because your xp requirements are recalculated when the LA is removed. At the same time, the other wizard hits level 6. You now gain xp faster than them (for being a level below), but even if you didn't, you're going to hit level 6 before they hit 7 -- they can't get another level ahead of you.

Of course, for the race in question, there aren't any real good advantages to a caster, mechanically... but in the long run (or even at the level the game is taking place), with buyoff, it won't cripple you like you're saying.

[Chronos]

If you're a caster, then LA is never worth it.

...with the exception of a few very broken templates that advance spellcasting. There's a LA 1 template out there, something about white dragons, that gives you one level of sorcerer casting.

It can also be worthwhile for things with racial spellcasting, or no racial HD, in a Gestalt game, depending on your DM's interpretation of how LA interacts with Gestalt.

[Mewtarthio]

You must pay off your LA at the first opportunity. Even if you're starting at a higher level, you're supposed to build your character as if they went through those levels normally, so you have to go back and pay it at that point in your development.

If you're going to buy it off, a +1 LA must be bought off the moment you hit character level 3. The player has no choice about this, and it cannot be payed at any other point.

Where's the logic in that? "Oh, sorry, this is an ECL 5 game, so you missed the boat. Looks like you're screwed forever--have a nice game!"

To be honest, it looks more like a newbie trap to me. If someone doesn't know that LA buyback gets them ahead in the long run, they might opt not to take it when they become eligible. That way, once they realize thier mistake, you can make fun of them and say, "Sorry, too late!"

[Zincorium]

Where's the logic in that? "Oh, sorry, this is an ECL 5 game, so you missed the boat. Looks like you're screwed forever--have a nice game!"

To be honest, it looks more like a newbie trap to me. If someone doesn't know that LA buyback gets them ahead in the long run, they might opt not to take it when they become eligible. That way, once they realize thier mistake, you can make fun of them and say, "Sorry, too late!"

Um, say what?

That's not what Acquillion said. You build your character as if you'd actually played through.

So if you started at 5th, the fair thing to do would be to have the character who bought off LA be at 4th level, with 7000 xp. As if they'd bought off the LA.

Award them the higher xp rate for a lower level character, and the difference quickly becomes fairly small.

And as to the second paragraph, who even does something like that? Do you actually play with people who insult inexperienced players for being inexperienced? Are you like that? It boggles my mind why you'd even go down that road.

[Aquillion]

Where's the logic in that? "Oh, sorry, this is an ECL 5 game, so you missed the boat. Looks like you're screwed forever--have a nice game!"

To be honest, it looks more like a newbie trap to me. If someone doesn't know that LA buyback gets them ahead in the long run, they might opt not to take it when they become eligible. That way, once they realize thier mistake, you can make fun of them and say, "Sorry, too late!"

That isn't what I meant. Frosty was calculating with the cost to pay it at level 5 (5000 xp) instead of at level 3 (3000 xp). Of course I think a character joining an ECL 5 game should be able to use LA buyoff, but they should do it by designing their character as if they'd payed the buyoff as soon as it was available; a character in a game starting above level 1 should be built exactly as if they went through each of the levels normally. If you want to be really exact, you would even calculate the extra xp they'd earn for being lower-level than the rest of the party at various points, but in any case, you should start them with no LA and about 3000 xp less than everyone else (in other words, at level 4 with ~3000 xp to go until level 5).

[sikyon]

Generally the best +1 LA race is considered to be Mineral Warrior.

+3 Natural Armor, Earth strike, Darkvision 60ft, DR 8/adamantine, +2Str +4Con -2 to all mental stats.

Impressive if you ask me. That DR 8/adamantine is a killer at low levels.

[Frosty]

Mineral Warrior is not a Template?