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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Enforcing extra-dimensional space rules

    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2008-03-31 at 06:07 PM.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Enforcing extra-dimensional space rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuddly View Post
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    Yes, I enforce all of the extra-dimensional space rules. Of which there is only 1: Don't mix bags of holding and portable holes.
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2008-03-31 at 06:07 PM.
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    Default Re: Enforcing extra-dimensional space rules

    BoH and Rope Trick solution: hang the Bag just outside the other extradimensional space. Risk of people seeing the floating bag can be negated with creative use of spells.
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    Default Re: Enforcing extra-dimensional space rules

    Bags of holding in rope tricks and such are okay in the games I've been in because Rope Trick has never been abused (or even heavily used) in any of those games.

    And really, there are more interesting ways to screw with a party that uses a rope trick to do anything more sophisticated than set up a slightly more comfy resting spot in a non-time-critical dungeon.

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    Default Re: Enforcing extra-dimensional space rules

    Rope trick probably is the best spell ever...i guess puting a bag of holding in a bag of holding would be a bad idea...and then we could put a rope trick into the first bag of holding and see if we can't rip apart the fabric of existance.

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    Default Re: Enforcing extra-dimensional space rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    Yes, I enforce all of the extra-dimensional space rules. Of which there is only 1: Don't mix bags of holding and portable holes.
    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2008-03-31 at 06:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Enforcing extra-dimensional space rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuddly View Post
    {Scrubbed}
    Whats funny? That I enforce the rules? Why is that surprising? I'm one of the more pro-raw people on these boards.
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2008-03-31 at 06:08 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
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    Default Re: Enforcing extra-dimensional space rules

    In 2nd edition, there was a general rule that applied to putting any extradimensional space into any other, and the text of Rope Trick contained a reference to that rule as a warning and reminder. In third edition, though, that general rule was scaled back to only apply to the specific case of putting a BoH into a Portable Hole, or vice-versa, but whoever updated the Rope Trick spell didn't realize that, and left the warning in without any rule for it to refer to. Currently, Wizards officially recommends that folks ignore that line in the text of Rope Trick, since there aren't any actual rules for it. If you want to decide on some dire consequences for doing so, feel free to, but be aware that you're houseruling.
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    Default Re: Enforcing extra-dimensional space rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuddly View Post
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    "Hazardous" could mean lung cancer after 40 years or portal to the plane of fire. That's why you don't see this part debated alot online, there's no RAW consequence.
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2008-03-31 at 06:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Enforcing extra-dimensional space rules

    i imagine since were dealing with extrademensional space, then the consiquince would involve extradementional space...mabe it creates a singularit that sucks everything within 50 feet into extradementional space that lasts for 5 minutes then evaporates....or erm chuck norris could come out of it, that's always bad news
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    Default Re: Enforcing extra-dimensional space rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    Whats funny? That I enforce the rules? Why is that surprising? I'm one of the more pro-raw people on these boards.
    {Scrubbed}

    Quote Originally Posted by sikyon View Post
    "Hazardous" could mean lung cancer after 40 years or portal to the plane of fire. That's why you don't see this part debated alot online, there's no RAW consequence.
    I know it's not debated a lot; Rope Trick is often in the top list of what makes wizards so great. But if it's really causing a DM much headache, I mean, there is a pretty obvious phrase in there about the hazards of extra-dimensional spaces. It strikes me as one of those spells that would be easily defeated by a DM; hence I'm curious why it shows up so often.
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2008-03-31 at 06:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Enforcing extra-dimensional space rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuddly View Post
    I know it's not debated a lot; Rope Trick is often in the top list of what makes wizards so great. But if it's really causing a DM much headache, I mean, there is a pretty obvious phrase in there about the hazards of extra-dimensional spaces. It strikes me as one of those spells that would be easily defeated by a DM; hence I'm curious why it shows up so often.
    Rope Trick is a waste as soon as you get teleport. And an even bigger waste once you get MMM and Greater Teleport.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
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    Default Re: Enforcing extra-dimensional space rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    Whats funny? That I enforce the rules? Why is that surprising? I'm one of the more pro-raw people on these boards.
    It's funny because Cuddly thinks that "enforcing the rules" means finding every possible maybe if I twist it a little interpretation that he can to weaken players and prevent them from doing "things they shouldn't be able to do" which mostly consists of powerful things and anything really cool or useful.

    Of course extra dimensional spaces other then Bags of Holding and Portable Holes is stretching it even for him.

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    Default Re: Enforcing extra-dimensional space rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuddly View Post
    I know it's not debated a lot; Rope Trick is often in the top list of what makes wizards so great. But if it's really causing a DM much headache, I mean, there is a pretty obvious phrase in there about the hazards of extra-dimensional spaces. It strikes me as one of those spells that would be easily defeated by a DM; hence I'm curious why it shows up so often.
    That's precisely the point. Rope trick doesn't cause DMs problems. Because for most people the players doing something smart that helps them succeed at their goals is what the game is about, not what the DM tries to thwart.

    Overcoming challenges intelligently is what the players are supposed to do, if you take away every spell that helps them accomplish goals then you might as well just ban magic.

    When my party Rope Tricks and a passing band of nocturnal creatures misses them in the night they get XP for defeating a challenge. Because that's what they did.

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    Default Re: Enforcing extra-dimensional space rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Chosen_of_Vecna View Post
    That's precisely the point. Rope trick doesn't cause DMs problems. Because for most people the players doing something smart that helps them succeed at their goals is what the game is about, not what the DM tries to thwart.

    Overcoming challenges intelligently is what the players are supposed to do, if you take away every spell that helps them accomplish goals then you might as well just ban magic.

    When my party Rope Tricks and a passing band of nocturnal creatures misses them in the night they get XP for defeating a challenge. Because that's what they did.
    On the other hand, any band of creatures which can be "defeated" so consistently with a single second level spell is obviously of very low CR, and so they shouldn't get very much XP for besting it.
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    Default Re: Enforcing extra-dimensional space rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    Rope Trick is a waste as soon as you get teleport. And an even bigger waste once you get MMM and Greater Teleport.
    Oh yeah, teleport is pretty amazing. But that's a fifth level spell. There are three spell levels of playing between the two.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chosen_of_Vecna View Post
    It's funny because Cuddly thinks that "enforcing the rules" means finding every possible maybe if I twist it a little interpretation that he can to weaken players and prevent them from doing "things they shouldn't be able to do" which mostly consists of powerful things and anything really cool or useful.
    Really? As far as I can tell, CharOp boards love sticking to the rules as close as possible because it puts the most power in the hands of the players. Loose rules means a certain spell trick or combo won't always work in every game. But the killer gnome always works, everywhere, unless there are some super serious rules changes.

    Of course extra dimensional spaces other then Bags of Holding and Portable Holes is stretching it even for him.
    I always envisioned extradimensional space as a fold, rather than a stretch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chosen_of_Vecna View Post
    That's precisely the point. Rope trick doesn't cause DMs problems. Because for most people the players doing something smart that helps them succeed at their goals is what the game is about, not what the DM tries to thwart.
    Smart? I think you and I have different ideas as what qualifies as "smart".

    Overcoming challenges intelligently is what the players are supposed to do, if you take away every spell that helps them accomplish goals then you might as well just ban magic.
    1. Strawman. (this is like the third one from you in two posts!)
    2. Why? What if magic was to be a fuddly little thing without any serious combat use? You know, wash the dishes, flavor some food, have a hand with the chores. Open doors or pick stuff up from far away.

    When my party Rope Tricks and a passing band of nocturnal creatures misses them in the night they get XP for defeating a challenge. Because that's what they did.
    Silly.

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    Default Re: Enforcing extra-dimensional space rules

    My last DM made the party leave their Heward's Handy Haversacks outside of the Rope Trick. The campaign ended before it had any substantial effect, though. I figured it'd probably end up with the paladin and the fighter being the only ones with equipment, since they were the only ones with high enough strength to ignore HHHs.
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    Default Re: Enforcing extra-dimensional space rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Dervag View Post
    On the other hand, any band of creatures which can be "defeated" so consistently with a single second level spell is obviously of very low CR, and so they shouldn't get very much XP for besting it.
    They aren't, but it's the little things that matter, and when the Dire whatever's pass by at level 12 and they get 300 XP, they don't really level any sooner, but they are reminded that intelligent choices are rewarded.

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    Default Re: Enforcing extra-dimensional space rules

    When my party Rope Tricks and a passing band of nocturnal creatures misses them in the night they get XP for defeating a challenge. Because that's what they did.
    I'm as big a defender of non-combat resolution of encounters as anyone, but I think that, by the rules, you have to actually be aware of an encounter, and actively respond to it in some way, to gain XP for it. I don't think that "being in a safe place when some monsters that I didn't know about happened to wander by" really qualifies.

    Of course, even if you don't get experience from it, you do still get the benefit of not having to try to fight it when your resources are depleted and most of the party is asleep. That's quite enough to make Rope Trick worthwhile.
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    Default Re: Enforcing extra-dimensional space rules

    As long as you don't open the bag or hole, it's okay.

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    Default Re: Enforcing extra-dimensional space rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuddly View Post
    Really? As far as I can tell, CharOp boards love sticking to the rules as close as possible because it puts the most power in the hands of the players. Loose rules means a certain spell trick or combo won't always work in every game. But the killer gnome always works, everywhere, unless there are some super serious rules changes.
    And where exactly is this a contradiction with my statement? It sound exactly like what I just said except with an appeal to an outside source and phrased as if player power were a bad thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuddly View Post
    I always envisioned extradimensional space as a fold, rather than a stretch.
    You were wrong, it's clearly a stretch. I mean a fold? That's just silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuddly View Post
    Smart? I think you and I have different ideas as what qualifies as "smart".
    No it's not genius, but it's smarter then sitting on the ground around a camp fire and waving a signal flag at the passing Dire wolves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuddly View Post
    1. Strawman. (this is like the third one from you in two posts!)
    I'm sorry, their must be some miscommunication here, I did not accuse you or anyone else of attempting to take away every useful spell. It was a general statement of If/Then directed at a general "you" ie the reader.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuddly View Post
    2. Why? What if magic was to be a fuddly little thing without any serious combat use? You know, wash the dishes, flavor some food, have a hand with the chores. Open doors or pick stuff up from far away.
    Well since I was clearly talking about D&D in this specific case then you would need to start by banning every spell but three, and then all the classes based on Magic, and then all the Monsters with it. And at some point you'd have to ask yourself if what you had left was really worth keeping Magic in the game or if it would be better to remove it entirely and come up with an alternative system different from the D&D magic system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuddly View Post
    Silly.
    Yes, how silly of me to set up encounters ahead of time and give XP when the players avoid them. Next I'll start letting them level up, or worse yet give them magical items.
    Last edited by Chosen_of_Vecna; 2008-03-31 at 05:53 PM.

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    Default Re: Enforcing extra-dimensional space rules

    I've never really understood why Rope Trick was considered an abusable spell by some DMs. Yes, it is powerful...but it's also easily defeated. That's about right for a common spell IMO. It is common though, and should be known of in any culture where magic is discussed. So even those with no access to magical detection will wonder what's up when tracks suddenly end...

    Maybe it's just because I've had characters ambushed when spending the night in a Rope Trick. But it takes time to don armor...usually end up fighting without most of it.

    And yes, the games I've played in enforce the bag of holding / portable hole disaster rules also...to our occasional detriment with unidentified items. :-/
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    Default Re: Enforcing extra-dimensional space rules

    Sheriff of Moddingham: Wow, what a terrible way to begin a discussion. Thread locked as trolling/flaming.
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